Seems women are becoming less and less dependent on men

[Knight]

The title

Seems women are becoming less and less dependent on men

IMO they should be.

I didn't read any of the references. I didn't see the need to read those simply because the title seems to ignore the truth that women don't need to depend on a man.

It sounds to me like reverting back to a time when a woman stayed at home is the basis for the thread & references. Is that it?

If so, IMO then being locked in the past is a disservice to women. Once out of the home to help support the family women have contributed a lot to society. Expecting equal treatment isn't much to ask for. That equality in treatment I guess for some is threatening.

 

[oldaunt]

And visa versa...

Some of both sides deserve the putdown

 

[JaniceM]

The title

Seems women are becoming less and less dependent on men

IMO they should be.

I didn't read any of the references. I didn't see the need to read those simply because the title seems to ignore the truth that women don't need to depend on a man.

It sounds to me like reverting back to a time when a woman stayed at home is the basis for the thread & references. Is that it?

If so, IMO then being locked in the past is a disservice to women. Once out of the home to help support the family women have contributed a lot to society. Expecting equal treatment isn't much to ask for. That equality in treatment I guess for some is threatening.

Equal treatment should not ride on whether or not a person is earning money.

 

[Knight]

Equal treatment should not ride on whether or not a person is earning money.

Nor should it be. I was taking from my life experience & how my wife was treated when she 1st. went to work.

Employment was used as an example that was/is more in the media. My view began way back when changing cloth diapers & sticking my fingers with the pin wasn't fun but shared. I have a partner for over 60 years now she was never a domestic slave.

 

[grahamg]

And visa versa...

That's a difficult one in my view, (I'm not sure whether men who put women down a lot are more likely to have chosen their partners unwisely(?).

Just not sure it works so well that way around, (can't really explain why I think that).

 

[feywon]

Seems women are becoming less and less dependent on men​

Finally! That was a LOT of pressure, man! Really stressful.

But seriously (except, actually, I was being serious), a lot of ladies today - ladies in their 20s/early 30s - talk like they still depend on a man as long as he can afford to buy her a car and her expensive cosmetics, clothes, and trips to a 4-star beauty salon where she gets her nails applied and painted, too.

And there's a whole other class of "ladies" in the same age-range who depend on a man (or men) to help her make babies in order to maximize the welfare benefits. Of course, that plan goes awry when the only days he shows up are the days when the EBT card gets loaded up (same as "the check arrives").

See, that's something i thought about addressing and didn't, traditional patriarchal family models do put a lot of stress on men.

As someone who was a single parent for most of my child-rearing years and whose last marriage involved a reversal of that patriarchal model, as opposed to the partnership i thought i was signing up for i am keenly aware of the stresses of being the only responsible adult in a family.

In most intact families during my teens and young adult years the wife handled most of the child care duties tho in some families it might have been better if Dad was the more directly involved. parent.

 

[Don M.]

I guess we've had a rather "old fashioned" marriage. My wife never worked outside the home, but she took excellent care of the house and kids, and was/is a great cook. I felt it was my responsibility to work hard, and supply us all with a decent lifestyle. It worked out great, and we've had about 57 years of a nice relationship.....based mostly on mutual respect for each other.

 

[Bellbird]

The same is often true of men who put women in general down. Thing is both men and women are heavily influenced by their childhood experiences, sometimes in ways that lead to poor choices.

Some people realize that it's more productive to figure out why you're making those choices, so you can not repeat them. Also we need to realize that even if a specific partner treated us badly doesn't mean ALL men/women are like that part

 

[Bellbird]

Some good posts. "He' was and still is heavily influenced by his father's opinion of women, and what a shocker it is too. But 'he' knowingly stays stuck in the past, even though our marriage is over.

I enjoy seeing a man and woman, usually husband and wife, of our age group walking along holding hands, obviously enjoying one anothers company.

 

[Tish]

My rules are very simple as to how I act.
If you are a gentleman then I'm a lady.
If you are a bastard I'm a bitch.

However to answer your question, I enjoy being treated like a lady, having the doors open for me, chairs pulled out, and all the rest of wonderful male chivalry.

 

[Paco Dennis]

I think it depends on factors that are too primal to say one size fits all. Their are cultural trends because of many factors, and they effect much of our lives. The instinct to reproduce IS. So is the nature AND nurture evolution of each persons instincts are their own. Human bonding can take all kinds of names and labels, but they never completely explain the complexity. It is easier for us humans to give something a name so we feel more secure about the "unknown". I find the complexity fascinating and can relate to many ways I have bonded with others in the past.

 

[Gary O']

I guess we've had a rather "old fashioned" marriage. My wife never worked outside the home, but she took excellent care of the house and kids, and was/is a great cook. I felt it was my responsibility to work hard, and supply us all with a decent lifestyle. It worked out great, and we've had about 57 years of a nice relationship.....based mostly on mutual respect for each other.

I couldn't have written that any better.
53 years of it here
Mutual respect and dependance of each other's strengths

I worked out of the home, sometimes two jobs, sometimes three
to put bread on the table.....check that....to put flour in the pantry

My lady worked in the home......24/7
to bake that bread
to make our house a home

Nothing better than coming 'home'
sweet warm home
to my loving, lovely lady
.....and the aroma of that bread

 

[Bella]

Before meeting my husband, I was self-sufficient and lived alone. It's a good thing to be self-sufficient. You should be able to paddle your own canoe. Because the work of sustaining a successful relationship is too much for them to handle, some people decide to remain alone throughout their lives. Being independent within a relationship is beneficial, but not to the point that you can't or won't ask for help when you need it. People like to feel needed, and being too self-sufficient can jeopardize your relationship.

Having your own interests is also an important part of maintaining independence. Shared interests are great, but you need to make time to pursue things that you love outside of your relationship and give each other space to do that. Of course, relationships require compromise, certain issues are unavoidable but no one should be forced to make concessions on their most important values.

A symbiotic relationship is the only one that works for me, giving as good as you get. You need to understand what the other person needs and be supportive of each other while not relying solely on your partner for everything. You can progress through life both as a team and as an individual if you trust each other. Everyone, whether they admit it or not, needs emotional support.

Respect shouldn't be determined by who earns the most money within a relationship. If a couple decides on a traditional relationship where he's the primary breadwinner and she's a homemaker, that's their choice, and it's no less viable, respectable, or honorable than if they both work outside the home and share the duties of children and housework. Then there are those who form partnerships solely for monetary reasons. That is, once again, up to the individuals. Although he enjoyed buying me things, I didn't need to ask my husband for money to buy a pair of shoes or anything else. We both worked and he always made more money than me. I enjoyed cooking for him and maintaining a pleasant home while he handled home repairs and took care of our property. We worked as a team.

And there's a whole other class of "ladies" in the same age-range who depend on a man (or men) to help her make babies in order to maximize the welfare benefits. Of course, that plan goes awry when the only days he shows up are the days when the EBT card gets loaded up (same as "the check arrives").

That's a whole other kettle of fish. Welfare recipients aside. I'll say this about using men to make babies. Men are needed for the production of children. While women might not want or desire a physical man, they do require sperm. It's not necessary to be in a relationship to have a child. I'm not going to get into the whole every child needs a father discussion/debate. Of course, it's preferable but not a necessity when all she wants to do is conceive a child.

That's my nickle.

Bella

 

[Murrmurr]

Before meeting my husband, I was self-sufficient and lived alone. It's a good thing to be self-sufficient. You should be able to paddle your own canoe. Because the work of sustaining a successful relationship is too much for them to handle, some people decide to remain alone throughout their lives. Being independent within a relationship is beneficial, but not to the point that you can't or won't ask for help when you need it. People like to feel needed, and being too self-sufficient can jeopardize your relationship.

Having your own interests is also an important part of maintaining independence. Shared interests are great, but you need to make time to pursue things that you love outside of your relationship and give each other space to do that. Of course, relationships require compromise, certain issues are unavoidable but no one should be forced to make concessions on their most important values.

A symbiotic relationship is the only one that works for me, giving as good as you get. You need to understand what the other person needs and be supportive of each other while not relying solely on your partner for everything. You can progress through life both as a team and as an individual if you trust each other. Everyone, whether they admit it or not, needs emotional support.

Respect shouldn't be determined by who earns the most money within a relationship. If a couple decides on a traditional relationship where he's the primary breadwinner and she's a homemaker, that's their choice, and it's no less viable, respectable, or honorable than if they both work outside the home and share the duties of children and housework. Then there are those who form partnerships solely for monetary reasons. That is, once again, up to the individuals. Although he enjoyed buying me things, I didn't need to ask my husband for money to buy a pair of shoes or anything else. We both worked and he always made more money than me. I enjoyed cooking for him and maintaining a pleasant home while he handled home repairs and took care of our property. We worked as a team.


That's a whole other kettle of fish. Welfare recipients aside. I'll say this about using men to make babies. Men are needed for the production of children. While women might not want or desire a physical man, they do require sperm. It's not necessary to be in a relationship to have a child. I'm not going to get into the whole every child needs a father discussion/debate. Of course, it's preferable but not a necessity when all she wants to do is conceive a child.

That's my nickle.

Bella

Well, sperm doesn't grow in a garden. It can be donated, though, but women have to pay to use it. And the use of our swimmers ain't cheap.

 

[Bella]

That's a whole other kettle of fish. Welfare recipients aside. I'll say this about using men to make babies. Men are needed for the production of children. While women might not want or desire a physical man, they do require sperm. It's not necessary to be in a relationship to have a child. I'm not going to get into the whole every child needs a father discussion/debate. Of course, it's preferable but not a necessity when all she wants to do is conceive a child.

Well, sperm doesn't grow in a garden. It can be donated, though, but women have to pay to use it. And the use of our swimmers ain't cheap.

Yes, men are sperm donors and, of course, when women go to a sperm bank they have to pay big bucks for daddy sauce. We are discussing women becoming less dependent on men in this thread, right? My point is that women can choose to independently conceive a child without becoming involved in a relationship.

Bella

 

[dseag2]

This is slightly off topic, and I'm sure I'll get pushback, but I think that if there were more women in the White House we would see more things accomplished. Like stricter gun laws, for example. Women tend to be more empathic than men. Some of the "good ole' boys" that only wish to line their pockets with money from special interests and do nothing need to go. There are, of course, a few nut job women already in the White House that are exceptions.

 

[grahamg]

I guess we've had a rather "old fashioned" marriage. My wife never worked outside the home, but she took excellent care of the house and kids, and was/is a great cook. I felt it was my responsibility to work hard, and supply us all with a decent lifestyle. It worked out great, and we've had about 57 years of a nice relationship.....based mostly on mutual respect for each other.

Expectations are important obviously, when anyone marries, or chooses a partner for life, and a friend of mine who I called my "second mum" had very clear views on what she thought of those who believed they could "have it all", (in terms of a work life and family life at all times).

She had a daughter in law she hardly had a good word for, who she felt chose career too often over her husband and child, (just her view and I'm honestly recalling it!), and as you say, being from a different generation she'd been content to give up her career to put all her efforts into bringing up her three sons, when she felt they needed her.

 

[grahamg]

Well, sperm doesn't grow in a garden. It can be donated, though, but women have to pay to use it. And the use of our swimmers ain't cheap.

The choice for either party in the arrangements you mention include whether or not you're prepared to have a child with someone you've no affection or love for at all, (no small issue in my view!).

 

[grahamg]

My rules are very simple as to how I act.
If you are a gentleman then I'm a lady.
If you are a bastard I'm a bitch.

However to answer your question, I enjoy being treated like a lady, having the doors open for me, chairs pulled out, and all the rest of wonderful male chivalry.

I'd agree with your attitudes with maybe just one slight adjustment, (being prepared to respond to those behaving like b*stards, but only doing so if you feel forced to descend to their level on occasion!).

 

[morgan]

A good husband makes a good wife. Yep, it takes two to tango as the saying goes. When I first met my wife she was in overalls with no make up, her head under the bonnet of a car fixing the engine. I wanted to marry her there and then. Next time I met her, she was wearing a frilly summer dress, skin glowing and still no make up. I was determined to marry her and pursued tirelessly. Been married for 50 years and when I think I am beginning to know the extent of her independence, she comes up with another surprise!

 

[SeaBreeze]

I need my wife and I like to think, at least from time to time, she needs me. This is not a bad thing, we've been interdependent on one another for 50 years now and it has worked out well for both of us. Had it not been for this partnership, I doubt either of us would have made it for 50 years (so far). No one is an Island, everyone needs someone, sometime. Don...

I agree, and that's pretty much how it is with us, married over 46 years and lived together for a few years before that. We both chose to work full time and save for our early retirement, we both contributed to the marriage and our relationship.

Women these days are more independent because not many are stay at home housewives like back in the day, the way my mother way. But those women also had certain strengths, knowledge and abilities to run the household, care for the children, manage the everyday finances, etc.

I have respect for men, and thankfully I haven't had to live on my own without my husband. If something bad happened to my husband and I found myself on my own, I imagine I'd struggle but be able to manage as long as I had my health. I wouldn't 'need' a man to survive, if I needed something heavy or complicated done in the house, I'd hire someone to do it, man or woman, doesn't matter. I do cherish being in a close relationship with my hubby, wouldn't want it any other way really.

 

[Vida May]

Anyone remember the saying..'a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle'?? I heard that years ago and thought it was funny but it seems today more and more young women are declaring their independence from needing a man to take care of them. That can be a good thing IMO but also in some cases, it is taken to an extreme in putting men down. What say you?.

I was just reading the thread about knowing our grandparents and several spoke of fathers who walked away. I think we are all products of history and that history has been kinder to some and very harsh to others.

Our abundance is relatively new. Federal programs are relatively new. Safe working conditions are relatively new. Most of our employment opportunities are new. And we come to this with a lot of human suffering because our past was not so easy and we were not as well informed as we are today.

Men had different benefits than women had and women had social benefits men did not have. Life was not easy for either. We may not like what history has done to men and women but I don't think either men or women should be blamed.

Personally, I would like to have a man in my life, but there are not enough good men to go around and I don't want to become close to a man who is not someone I can enjoy being with. What I desire in man today is very different from my past considerations and I am much more comfortable living without a man than I was in the past.

 

[dseag2]

Before I post, let me start by saying that I loved my father and he was a wonderful human being...

However, he came from an era when women were to stay home, do the housekeeping and take care of the children. He was established in business at 35 y/o when he married my mother, who had no career, at 25 y/o. He always insisted she not work, and he certainly provided for us as a family. However, since my mother was a beautiful lady and much younger he had certain high expectations for her in business and social situations. She always had to look her best. This all fell apart as she got older and felt she could no longer meet those standards. She went into severe depression and wouldn't leave her home for 4 years prior to his passing away. She simply felt like she wasn't living up to her part of the bargain.

When he did pass away, my mother was completely lost because she had always been "his wife and my mother". However, through encouragement she became empowered and independent when she realized she was on her own, was not beholden to anyone and could make her own decisions. She once again became very social and really flourished in the 22 years on her own. There was no pressure on her part to be anyone other than who she was.

So, that is the long way of saying I'm glad the most recent generations are contributing equally and it is great that women are becoming less dependent upon men.

 

[Geezer Garage]

On the subject of relationships, it seems that old saw about men, and women marrying someone very much like there respective mother, or father can often have some truth to it.

 

[Vida May]

Seems women are becoming less and less dependent on men​

Finally! That was a LOT of pressure, man! Really stressful.

But seriously (except, actually, I was being serious), a lot of ladies today - ladies in their 20s/early 30s - talk like they still depend on a man as long as he can afford to buy her a car and her expensive cosmetics, clothes, and trips to a 4-star beauty salon where she gets her nails applied and painted, too.

And there's a whole other class of "ladies" in the same age-range who depend on a man (or men) to help her make babies in order to maximize the welfare benefits. Of course, that plan goes awry when the only days he shows up are the days when the EBT card gets loaded up (same as "the check arrives").

All animals compete for sexual partners. It is nature's way of improving the next generation. Being able to provide well is very important to offspring that are dependent on parents.

Now cuckoo bird males do not help with building a nest or feeding the offspring so the female lays her eggs in other birds' nests and the father does not have to prove himself as a potential father. Unlike seagulls that must prove themselves before mating. First, the male seagull must claim and defend territory. The female must prove she too will fight for territory and the male will drive her off as he drives males away, until she mimics a baby wanting to be fed. Then the male must let her onto his territory and he must fly off and bring her back a fish, proving he will help feed the baby. While he is gone getting the fish, she must defend the property and if she fails or if he fails to bring her a fish they do not build a nest and do not have sex.

Personally, I think it is better to be like seagulls than cuckoo birds.