I watched the video. It is sad -- she seems like a nice person -- but there are sympathetic people trying to help the couple, including a social services worker and a local councilman. With any luck they will be able to find a permanent living arrangement for George and Judy.
Seniors living in tent encampment desperate for safe housing
- Thread starter GoneFishin
- Start date
I watched the video. It is sad -- she seems like a nice person -- but there are sympathetic people trying to help the couple, including a social services worker and a local councilman. With any luck they will be able to find a permanent living arrangement for George and Judy.
We've had some of this discussion before, but things are not getting worse and people are not increasingly getting left behind.
This is from the UN:
There has been marked progress in reducing poverty over the past decades. In 2015, 10 per cent of the world’s population lived at or below $1.90 a day -down from 16 per cent in 2010 and 36 per cent in 1990- while in 2023 almost 700 million people around the world were subsisting on less than $2.15.
There are a lot of challenges, but we should be hopeful and not downcast.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
So fewer than 9% if we assume 8 billion people on the planet.
Here's a more in-depth explanation of Irishdude's post.
From $1.90 to $2.15 a day: the updated International Poverty Line
PeppermintPatty
🐢. 🐳. 🐢
- Location
- Canada
These two could have gotten acommadation but refused to sleep in separate beds and have separate bedrooms. The place with palate bedrooms was turned down. They said they’d rather sleep together in a tent than sleep separately in lower income or no income housing.
Yes, that's right. Down from 36% in just a few decades, I think.
Still far too many people living in want but we are making progress. And we are not doing it through giveaways (although some giving is essential) but throught the stealthy spread of good old democratic capitalism. Countries like Botswana are showing the way.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Forgive me, I don't recall our previous discussion.
But statistics like this hide the individual. Poverty in the UK and the UK is increasing. In the scope of the UN, that may or may not be the case.
This report says poverty in the U.S. dropped in 2023. And since 1964, the poverty rate has dropped from 19 percent to about 11 percent. I don't know anything about the U.K. but it seems like people earn lower wages and face higher costs, especially for anything related to energy.
Official US poverty rate declined in 2023, but more people faced economic hardship.
I'm not downplaying anything, just saying the picture is not as grim as "poverty advocates" paint it to be.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
The Surprising Poverty Levels Across the U.S.
I'm not sure we have agreement.
Here's the thing. If poverty increases in the lower echelons of our society, then it indicates it'll rise up through the various classes/layers. In other words, you're next. Best guard against it.
First, I disagree that poverty is rising in the "lower echelons of our society" -- that's just not statistically verifiable. Second, much (not all) poverty in the U.S. is related to choices. People choose to have children out of wedlock, people choose not to finish high school, people choose to abuse substances and commit felonies. Young people make hair, tattoo, clothing and lifestyle choices that almost guarantee many employers will reject them. Children, in turn, suffer from their parents' poor choices.
Groups that do not choose this behavior -- such as Asian Indians -- experience little or no poverty in the U.S.
Third, I can't really conceive of anything that would make me poor. I have retirement money, social security and a paid off house. If "they" come to take it from me, it means that society as we know it has collapsed. Don't see that coming anytime soon, but I'll be vigilant.
Fourth, the 2023 opinion article you posted (which is based on 2022 census data) cites a spike in poverty that supposedly occurred after some Covid-related benefits lapsed. What I posted cited a drop in 2023. But the Covid-related benefits contributed to a huge spike in inflation that also made people poorer. Meanwhile, the U.S. pays $3 billion every day in interest on the national debt, which limits our options in terms of supporting transfer payments. Anything we do means more borrowing and more interest paid out.
HermitHogan
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Stone from the Sun
Homeless rates from 2015-2023.
Wall St. firms started buying up foreclosed homes at rock-bottom prices after the Great Recession. They're part of the reason rents started skyrocketing and probably contributed to the homeless problem.
Wall St. firms started buying up foreclosed homes at rock-bottom prices after the Great Recession. They're part of the reason rents started skyrocketing and probably contributed to the homeless problem.
OneEyedDiva
SF VIP
- Location
- New Jersey
Check out the ingenuity of the homeless people living in my second home (city), Atlantic City. They've got a working cooking source and heater, even figured out how to have pizza delivered.
Atlantic City Removes Homeless “Apartment Complex” Beneath Iconic Boardwalk - Daily Stormer
Granted, some do not want to be helped, but some do. It's hard enough for a working couple to afford rents in N.J., let alone someone who's down on his/her luck, can't find work for whatever reason and just doesn't have the money. I've read countless stories about people who work two jobs, sometimes three, but because of their education/employment levels, still do not make enough to afford decent housing, be able to feed themselves and buy their meds. I always remember the saying "There but by the grace of God go I"
@VaughanJB I'll never forget a news story I read about people in a tent city in N.J. being kicked off the land (I believe it was a park). They had even erected a makeshift church. A reporter interviewed a couple who were once affluent business owners. The husband got a serious illness that drained them of all their money. Another man in his 50s, had been a high wage earner. He suddenly lost his job and found himself homeless. He felt "less than" because he said his only choice now was to go live with his father.
@Muskrat "Many people are totally oblivious of how easy it is to become homeless. They want to tell themselves that “those” people are different from themselves. Yes…some make poor choices. So put them somewhere safe and give them the same chance you would a dog."
You are absolutely right! Thus the last sentence in my first paragraph and the substantiating examples in my last.
Atlantic City Removes Homeless “Apartment Complex” Beneath Iconic Boardwalk - Daily Stormer
Granted, some do not want to be helped, but some do. It's hard enough for a working couple to afford rents in N.J., let alone someone who's down on his/her luck, can't find work for whatever reason and just doesn't have the money. I've read countless stories about people who work two jobs, sometimes three, but because of their education/employment levels, still do not make enough to afford decent housing, be able to feed themselves and buy their meds. I always remember the saying "There but by the grace of God go I"
@VaughanJB I'll never forget a news story I read about people in a tent city in N.J. being kicked off the land (I believe it was a park). They had even erected a makeshift church. A reporter interviewed a couple who were once affluent business owners. The husband got a serious illness that drained them of all their money. Another man in his 50s, had been a high wage earner. He suddenly lost his job and found himself homeless. He felt "less than" because he said his only choice now was to go live with his father.
@Muskrat "Many people are totally oblivious of how easy it is to become homeless. They want to tell themselves that “those” people are different from themselves. Yes…some make poor choices. So put them somewhere safe and give them the same chance you would a dog."
You are absolutely right! Thus the last sentence in my first paragraph and the substantiating examples in my last.
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Muskrat
Senior Member
- Location
- Mainly arizona
There has been a large homeless encampment called the zone here in the phoenix area. The courts have mandated that the city clean up the area and not allow a similar zone to arise. I find it very very interesting that after a massive effort they are now saying 70% are now in permanent housing….so….why did they let those people suffer for so long?
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
Agree with much of what you said. Another consideration is that tax-reported income isn't the only income people receive. (The numbers cited are post-tax income.) Thus the numbers are skewed.
When it comes to their income, people frequently under-report and virtually never over report. That includes cash received via tips, under-the-table work, casual work (like handyman) wages and gig work. Also other unreported transactions like bartering.
It also doesn't consider non-taxable or already taxed money in savings or inheritances that supplement income, whether folks live in paid off homes (or home someone else is paying for), and more
Not saying there isn't poverty in this country, but the people shown in the cited Time article hardly look like they're suffering with grinding poverty. All appear well-fed, clean, and are wearing weather appropriate clothing and shoes that are clean, in style, and in good repair.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
The gap between the rich, and the poor, in the US, has widened. This is indeed shown statistically.
I'm not aware of anyone choosing to be poor and live in poverty. Sure, there are people who make bad choices, but for most people the choice isn't whether to be wealthy or not. Besides, culture changes. Tattoo's are pretty common now. 32% of Americans have them, they say. 22% have more than one. Personally, I've none and prefer not to see them, but that just marks me as a old man.
I'm happy for you, but it's worth remembering that our lives aren't necessarily typical, especially when it comes to the modern world. I'm thankful I never grew up with the pressures around today, with Social Media, etc. We should be thankful for the opportunities we were afforded. Some people work tirelessly and get nowhere.
Covid data throws a lot of things off, but poverty is poverty. When posting links, I tend to post the article that comes up first in a search I've done. I never mean to assign any special value due to where it's from. Still, given the context of this thread, I can't see how poverty has gotten any better on an individual basis.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I saw a story from San Francisco where street gangs were making the homeless pay to stay on some streets. The world is never short of people who want to take advantage of others.
OneEyedDiva
SF VIP
- Location
- New Jersey
Unfortunately you are so right. Why am I not surprised that gangs were doing that?!
OneEyedDiva
SF VIP
- Location
- New Jersey
Imagine the multitudes of people in the U.S. alone who found themselves suddenly homeless due to devastating fires, floods and tornadoes. I'm sure many of them never thought they'd be in that position. I wonder what percentage of them have someplace to stay (other than hotels). I also wonder how much of their damage is covered by insurances. We've had flooding in neighboring towns where residents could no longer stay in their homes and residents of these flood zones were only offered a fraction of their homes' values.
My former supervisor "M" and his wife were on vacation in Mexico with another former co-worker "I" and his S.O. My supervisor's neighbor called to warn him about Superstorm Sandy, but M wasn't worried. Sandy decimated his house and his extensive record collection was destroyed. I considered them all friends and was going to buy him an iPod, fill it with music and get it to him somehow but "I" said M already had his music in digital form. Luckily for M, he and his wife, who never had children, were well off enough to immediately purchase another home.
My former supervisor "M" and his wife were on vacation in Mexico with another former co-worker "I" and his S.O. My supervisor's neighbor called to warn him about Superstorm Sandy, but M wasn't worried. Sandy decimated his house and his extensive record collection was destroyed. I considered them all friends and was going to buy him an iPod, fill it with music and get it to him somehow but "I" said M already had his music in digital form. Luckily for M, he and his wife, who never had children, were well off enough to immediately purchase another home.
The gap between the rich, and the poor, in the US, has widened. This is indeed shown statistically.
I'm not aware of anyone choosing to be poor and live in poverty. Sure, there are people who make bad choices, but for most people the choice isn't whether to be wealthy or not. Besides, culture changes. Tattoo's are pretty common now. 32% of Americans have them, they say. 22% have more than one. Personally, I've none and prefer not to see them, but that just marks me as a old man.
I'm happy for you, but it's worth remembering that our lives aren't necessarily typical, especially when it comes to the modern world. I'm thankful I never grew up with the pressures around today, with Social Media, etc. We should be thankful for the opportunities we were afforded. Some people work tirelessly and get nowhere.
Covid data throws a lot of things off, but poverty is poverty. When posting links, I tend to post the article that comes up first in a search I've done. I never mean to assign any special value due to where it's from. Still, given the context of this thread, I can't see how poverty has gotten any better on an individual basis.
This could go back and forth forever. However, I credit your intelligence and good will. We may disagree on specifics but I think we both agree that poverty is bad and that both governments and "society" have a duty to ameliorate its effects.The gap between the rich, and the poor, in the US, has widened. This is indeed shown statistically.
I'm not aware of anyone choosing to be poor and live in poverty. Sure, there are people who make bad choices, but for most people the choice isn't whether to be wealthy or not. Besides, culture changes. Tattoo's are pretty common now. 32% of Americans have them, they say. 22% have more than one. Personally, I've none and prefer not to see them, but that just marks me as a old man.
I'm happy for you, but it's worth remembering that our lives aren't necessarily typical, especially when it comes to the modern world. I'm thankful I never grew up with the pressures around today, with Social Media, etc. We should be thankful for the opportunities we were afforded. Some people work tirelessly and get nowhere.
Covid data throws a lot of things off, but poverty is poverty. When posting links, I tend to post the article that comes up first in a search I've done. I never mean to assign any special value due to where it's from. Still, given the context of this thread, I can't see how poverty has gotten any better on an individual basis.
Each person has a story.... disaster can happen to anyone.... insurance does not make anyone whole after a disaster.
People would have more sympathy to the problem IF they had not had personal witness to fraud or abuse or just those who will take advantage of those with a big heart or will give .........believing things will change.
I work a 1/2 block from a grocery store ..... I walk over on days i did not bring lunch ... there is a rotating group of people with signs asking for handouts.... there is a wheelchair / various cardboard signs stashed behind some bushes and used by many in group as a prop....
kids and dogs also used as a props.....
it is almost like they have a "work schedule." .....I saw a discussion of "this was my time slot " ...... the next stop down the street a ways is a Costco. I literally see a couple with 3 kids used as props ...... work on sunny days 2 days at Costco / 2 days at other store, brand new clothes and they now bring lawn chairs to sit while begging for help.
Also know a young man who lived in his van for 3 months working at a place i have a family member working at ... staff had nothing but pride that that guy never said anything about his situation just worked until he found a place and had some money set aside washed/ showered at a low cost gym he joined. Only took help when people figured it out and had some extra home items to help him out.....
Which type do would you want to help?
Programs government or private ......most of your money / donations go to "administration" look ........at the CEO of many charity organizations 6 figure salaries to help the poor and they act all saintly..... who is really profiting from the millions given. AND the problem grows. Like the billions spent in California they never even tracked or accounted for. Yet we are told billions more is needed ..... will the next bunch be spent wisely or funneled into anyone wanting to profit off the endless need.
People would have more sympathy to the problem IF they had not had personal witness to fraud or abuse or just those who will take advantage of those with a big heart or will give .........believing things will change.
I work a 1/2 block from a grocery store ..... I walk over on days i did not bring lunch ... there is a rotating group of people with signs asking for handouts.... there is a wheelchair / various cardboard signs stashed behind some bushes and used by many in group as a prop....
kids and dogs also used as a props.....
it is almost like they have a "work schedule." .....I saw a discussion of "this was my time slot " ...... the next stop down the street a ways is a Costco. I literally see a couple with 3 kids used as props ...... work on sunny days 2 days at Costco / 2 days at other store, brand new clothes and they now bring lawn chairs to sit while begging for help.
Also know a young man who lived in his van for 3 months working at a place i have a family member working at ... staff had nothing but pride that that guy never said anything about his situation just worked until he found a place and had some money set aside washed/ showered at a low cost gym he joined. Only took help when people figured it out and had some extra home items to help him out.....
Which type do would you want to help?
Programs government or private ......most of your money / donations go to "administration" look ........at the CEO of many charity organizations 6 figure salaries to help the poor and they act all saintly..... who is really profiting from the millions given. AND the problem grows. Like the billions spent in California they never even tracked or accounted for. Yet we are told billions more is needed ..... will the next bunch be spent wisely or funneled into anyone wanting to profit off the endless need.
HermitHogan
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Stone from the Sun
The last sentence in that paragraph says it all. Children pay the price when irresponsible people procreate. Of course, these days when poor single women are being forced to have children they can't take care of, it's not entirely the fault of the women; it's the fault of society. Same with when we reward mothers for having children by increasing benefits.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Right back at you.
It's not only that poverty is bad. Like everyone else, I sometimes get angry at people who are poor because they're ....... well, not every good at managing themselves, shall we say..... However, it's the type of overt poverty. This housing crisis we're in - it's an epidemic. It's a disease that has spread across many nations. It has been brought about by the system that promotes wealth over all else, that has allowed people to become rich on the back of accumulated debt. It's a real problem.
Not only that, but it will fester and begin to start fires. It will erode societies. It's a curse we, as boomers, have allowed to happen on our watch. The system has simply failed an ever growing number of people, and we only started caring when their stench and ugliness hit out High Streets. And we still have our eyes closed and hope it can be moved along, or simply go away. IMO YMMV.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
It's definitely a societal problem. Too many, I suspect, think of it as part of the cost of doing business in today's world. For us to have the things we want at a price we want to pay, there simply have to be those who both miss out and out and out live in poverty. Instead of that being a source of shame, we applaud it and write it off as economics 101.
Honestly, when I look at the homeless issue, I think: This is what government is for. They should have seen it coming, and they should deal with it in a proper and humane way. Don't leave mentally ill people in a tent, taking street drugs to make the madness go away. Don't look down at the addicts and blame them for being failures. It's become a cliche, but if we can build missiles and tanks, surely we can build homes? Not only that, but have a true system in place to guide people through a transition from the street, and failure, to a reasonable level of success. No?
It's not a reward. It's a necessity to house/feed all the children whether you know or approve of the reason for their existence or not.
officerripley
Well-known Member
- Location
- Porlock, Calif
True:Right back at you.
It's not only that poverty is bad. Like everyone else, I sometimes get angry at people who are poor because they're ....... well, not every good at managing themselves, shall we say..... However, it's the type of overt poverty. This housing crisis we're in - it's an epidemic. It's a disease that has spread across many nations. It has been brought about by the system that promotes wealth over all else, that has allowed people to become rich on the back of accumulated debt. It's a real problem.
Not only that, but it will fester and begin to start fires. It will erode societies. It's a curse we, as boomers, have allowed to happen on our watch. The system has simply failed an ever growing number of people, and we only started caring when their stench and ugliness hit out High Streets. And we still have our eyes closed and hope it can be moved along, or simply go away. IMO YMMV.
"...STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, Math] professionals are the mandarins of [this] computer age—and...our view of reality may turn out to be every bit as blinkered as the things 'everyone' knew in the inner courts of Versailles or St. Petersburg or the Forbidden Palace. There is a certain smell to the lies that privileged intellectuals tell each other in deeply divided societies during the last few gilded years before the streets catch fire."
~~from “Books” column by Chris Moriarty in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, Sept./Oct. 2015