Seniors living in tent encampment desperate for safe housing

[Murrmurr]

My problem with relying on social media/the public is that the response is not always fair or consistent.

Often times the cute cuddly are helped while others are largely ignored.

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That's true if we're talking about individual people's charity. When I said this: "Regular citizens do everything better, faster, and/or more efficiently than government agencies", I was talking about private businesses.

Calif bought billions of dollars in properties to renovate them for state-subsidized low-income housing. At least half of those properties sat untouched and empty for over a decade. Now the state is selling them off to real estate corporations and investors with no guarantee they'll maintain the low-income/low-rent status. They are rejecting private bids out-of-hand.

New York City bought Meals on Wheels from a private charity. People have gotten cheap, crappy meals ever since, and the city sucks at keeping track of who on the list of recipients has died or moved.

I'm not positive about this one, but I read that a gov't agency purchased Goodwill Industries from the private charitable organization that owned it, and then sold it to some big corporation. People have been complaining about Goodwill stores ever since, saying something fishy is going on.

(I'm not sure I'm making my point)

 

[Murrmurr]

Government [agencies] or government [personnel] ?

Have you ever worked in / been involved with civil service ?

When ever a profit is needed / desired , and it always is in the private sector ...... the cost of any service always rises. Sometimes exponentially . I won't go into the very long story but ..... I have seen it / been involved in it personally .

The private sector is seldom the more cost effective manner in which to get things done.

What effects costs to private sector services the most is competition from similar gov't services. In fact, gov't-run "businesses" have put many various private businesses out of business.

I can't name one example of where the bureaucracy of govt-administrated business and services is more efficient than privately owned ones. Economic efficiency included.

 

[HermitHogan]

What effects costs to private sector services the most is competition from similar gov't services. In fact, gov't-run "businesses" have put many various private businesses out of business.

I can't name one example of where the bureaucracy of govt-administrated business and services is more efficient than privately owned ones. Economic efficiency included.

Social Security operates at a 4% overhead. That's pretty damn efficient!

 

[rgp]

What effects costs to private sector services the most is competition from similar gov't services. In fact, gov't-run "businesses" have put many various private businesses out of business.

I can't name one example of where the bureaucracy of govt-administrated business and services is more efficient than privately owned ones. Economic efficiency included.

Again, I have worked in it for 30 years. There is no Gov/business . A gov service/agency works from an annual budget, based on the previous year. If that agency request an increase too that budget ....... you wouldn't believe the 'hoops' they need to jump through , documentation required, and quite often the increase is either denied or greatly reduced. And in some cases that reflects on the following years budget.

 

[Murrmurr]

Again, I have worked in it for 30 years. There is no Gov/business . A gov service/agency works from an annual budget, based on the previous year. If that agency request an increase too that budget ....... you wouldn't believe the 'hoops' they need to jump through , documentation required, and quite often the increase is either denied or greatly reduced. And in some cases that reflects on the following years budget.

I live in California, where I'm guessing more tax dollars are wasted than anywhere else in the country....rivaled only by federal spending.

When state subsidized and state-run projects or programs (I'll say that instead of business) cost too much, become too much work, or run low on funds near state election time, the state sells it off for as much as they can get. Same for state-owned property, including vehicles of all sorts, parks, office and school supplies, equipment, and furniture, and offices and schools that have closed.

 

[Murrmurr]

Social Security operates at a 4% overhead. That's pretty damn efficient!

And isn't mismanaged whatsoever.

I do not believe that 4%. It may apply to a part of the program, but not across the board.

 

[VaughanJB]

The issue with drug addiction treatment is that, as soon as it came under the administration of a not-for-profit agency, treatment costs were slashed, and when costs were slashed the recidivism rose to 85% (a national average), and the cost to individuals seeking rehabilitation treatment through private for-profit facilities rose by as much as 65%.

And because medical insurance companies didn't want to pay the higher costs, or couldn't afford them, they stopped including treatment for drug addiction on their policies and hundreds of private treatment centers were forced to either close or accept wealthy addicts only.

Years later, employers either re-added rehab benefits their employees had to pay extra for, like as a tier, or started offering *limited* rehab benefits, i.e., out-patient and pharmaceutical treatment only, both of which are ineffective for hard-core addicts. Most of them inevitably lost their jobs.

Private for-profit substance-addiction treatment centers know what they are doing. Their staff includes experienced medical and psychiatric professionals and therapists, and a lot of them hire life-coach counselors who are reformed addicts. Services include family therapy for the addict's parents, spouses, and kids, and some even offer employment assistance and job training referrals.

On average (national), the recidivism rate at private for-profit substance-addiction treatment centers is around 25%. The recidivism rate for a few of them is only 7%. I bet their cost of doing business is among the highest, but that reputation is worth it.

Without going into too much detail, I had first hand experience of these methadone clinics in Florida (sort of). I knew someone who needed them, and I paid for it. He got no help from anyone without cash being exchanged. This was in Florida, a couple years ago. Perhaps things have changed now.

Thank you for you post, very informative.

 

[HermitHogan]

The issue with drug addiction treatment is that, as soon as it came under the administration of a not-for-profit agency, treatment costs were slashed, and when costs were slashed the recidivism rose to 85% (a national average), and the cost to individuals seeking rehabilitation treatment through private for-profit facilities rose by as much as 65%.

What's a "not-for-profit agency?"

 

[Murrmurr]

What's a "not-for-profit agency?"

Not-for-profit agencies and organizations don't earn a profit for the owners, all the money they earn through business ventures and activities, or through donations, can only be used to run the organization, including paying non-member administrators, organizers, support staff, etc. Unlike non-profits, they're not required to operate for the good of the public or a community, they can simply serve the specific goals of their members or "board". But they can serve the community if they want to.

Like, back in the 80s, a not-for-profit org raised enough funds to build what was then one of Sacramento's largest sports arenas. That served the organization board's goal and the community. Of course, the individuals involved did earn money off it (eventually), but none of the money went to the organization, so that was perfectly legal.

Also, not-for-profits don't automatically qualify for tax-exempt status, they have to apply for it. And people who donate money or goods to a them can't claim the donations on their taxes.

 

[Murrmurr]

What's a "not-for-profit agency?"

And after seeing your question I realized I goofed > "...as soon as it came under the administration of a not-for-profit agency..."

It was a non-profit agency.

 

[rgp]

I live in California, where I'm guessing more tax dollars are wasted than anywhere else in the country....rivaled only by federal spending.

When state subsidized and state-run projects or programs (I'll say that instead of business) cost too much, become too much work, or run low on funds near state election time, the state sells it off for as much as they can get. Same for state-owned property, including vehicles of all sorts, parks, office and school supplies, equipment, and furniture, and offices and schools that have closed.

Well, OK but I'm not sure what that has to do with the day-to-day operations and the efficiency of those operations.

Once an operation or service is taken over by the private sector , and the government agency does sell off the equipment needed in their service/operation. The private sector contractor can charge just about what ever they choose to continue the service/operation.

Again, once the equipment is auctioned off, the personnel have been laid off / retired off/furloughed ..... and yes often property/buildings sold, it would cost ?? perhaps millions to start it all over again. And ... the private sector companies know this.

 

[Remy]

I don't know if I mentioned this. Hard to tell with all the whinning I do. But I looked at a nice mobile in a park recently. Can afford it outright, no problem. What hesitated me was the space rent. This is one of the more expensive parks but it's getting out of hand.

I was looking at the numbers and really couldn't figure it out. I still have to take care of myself. The cats, absolute priority. Pay dental bills, get glasses every few years (mine are very expensive). Have a few bucks to thrift with. People are pinching pennies while corporations are getting richer and richer. It's freaking scary.

 

[HermitHogan]

I don't know if I mentioned this. Hard to tell with all the whinning I do. But I looked at a nice mobile in a park recently. Can afford it outright, no problem. What hesitated me was the space rent. This is one of the more expensive parks but it's getting out of hand.

I was looking at the numbers and really couldn't figure it out. I still have to take care of myself. The cats, absolute priority. Pay dental bills, get glasses every few years (mine are very expensive). Have a few bucks to thrift with. People are pinching pennies while corporations are getting richer and richer. It's freaking scary.

Have you seen this video? Private equity firms are causing housing costs to skyrocket!

 

[Remy]

@HermitHogan I've watched similar and a park in my town has been on the local news due to high prices. This is not profit, this is greed. And no one cares.

 

[Murrmurr]

Well, OK but I'm not sure what that has to do with the day-to-day operations and the efficiency of those operations.

Once an operation or service is taken over by the private sector , and the government agency does sell off the equipment needed in their service/operation. The private sector contractor can charge just about what ever they choose to continue the service/operation.

Again, once the equipment is auctioned off, the personnel have been laid off / retired off/furloughed ..... and yes often property/buildings sold, it would cost ?? perhaps millions to start it all over again. And ... the private sector companies know this.

My only point is that the private sector is far better at any type of service, research, invention, innovation, building, regulating, marketing, and commerce than any gov't entity.

That is my only point.

I totally get state entities like the DMV. Money the DMV takes in supports state roads and all that and the operation of the DMV itself. And I totally get SSA, though I do think it would be better run and better managed and regulated if each state had its own (like the DMV model) but was under strict federal guidelines and limitations. That's how Social Services operates, plus each state allocates SS funding and services to each county on the basis of established needs.

I remember Free Clinics, where anyone could walk in for a pregnancy test, a physical exam, STD treatment, a blood test, a fracture, a kid with a bad cough, and pay nothing. And I remember when Calif took over all the Free Clinics, and ruined them.

Calif literally owns medical clinics, and recently, dental clinics as well. How that looks on paper, idk, but I'm sure it's not "ownership". They suck. All of them. Services are excruciatingly slow and totally inadequate. They're cheap, but you could get systemic sepsis from an abscessed molar before an actual dentist ever sees your open mouth. And if you're lucky enough to be seen on time, your bad tooth isn't treated, it's extracted.

Same thing with state "drug-rehab" centers (allocated to counties) that pass out legal forms of their patient's drug of choice, for free, and put them on a 9 to 12 months-long waiting list for actual treatment...treatment that is totally inadequate. Naturally, no one keeps a record of how many of those patients die from an overdose while waiting for treatment, but I know first-hand it isn't an uncommon occurrence.

 

[HermitHogan]

@HermitHogan I've watched similar and a park in my town has been on the local news due to high prices. This is not profit, this is greed. And no one cares.

A few people care. Legislation has been proposed to reign in the abuse, but it won't go anywhere.

 

[Murrmurr]

I don't know if I mentioned this. Hard to tell with all the whinning I do. But I looked at a nice mobile in a park recently. Can afford it outright, no problem. What hesitated me was the space rent. This is one of the more expensive parks but it's getting out of hand.

I was looking at the numbers and really couldn't figure it out. I still have to take care of myself. The cats, absolute priority. Pay dental bills, get glasses every few years (mine are very expensive). Have a few bucks to thrift with. People are pinching pennies while corporations are getting richer and richer. It's freaking scary.

There's a rumor going around here that Sacramento's largest low-income housing agency has sold all of it's properties to a major real estate investment firm. The apartment I moved out of a few years ago was owned and managed by that housing agency. I paid only $350/mo for my little 1-br apartment. It currently rents for $900.

The person who told me this is a former neighbor who still lives there in a 1-br apartment, identical to the one I rented. She got a letter saying she should expect her rent to bump up to as much as $1200. It might not, because the previous management had a "grandfather" policy, and she's "grandfathered-in".

But the new owner/manager might not have to observe that policy. Certainly not if it's a private firm. They're free to omit it.

 

[rgp]

My only point is that the private sector is far better at any type of service, research, invention, innovation, building, regulating, marketing, and commerce than any gov't entity.

That is my only point.

I totally get state entities like the DMV. Money the DMV takes in supports state roads and all that and the operation of the DMV itself. And I totally get SSA, though I do think it would be better run and better managed and regulated if each state had its own (like the DMV model) but was under strict federal guidelines and limitations. That's how Social Services operates, plus each state allocates SS funding and services to each county on the basis of established needs.

I remember Free Clinics, where anyone could walk in for a pregnancy test, a physical exam, STD treatment, a blood test, a fracture, a kid with a bad cough, and pay nothing. And I remember when Calif took over all the Free Clinics, and ruined them.

Calif literally owns medical clinics, and recently, dental clinics as well. How that looks on paper, idk, but I'm sure it's not "ownership". They suck. All of them. Services are excruciatingly slow and totally inadequate. They're cheap, but you could get systemic sepsis from an abscessed molar before an actual dentist ever sees your open mouth. And if you're lucky enough to be seen on time, your bad tooth isn't treated, it's extracted.

Same thing with state "drug-rehab" centers (allocated to counties) that pass out legal forms of their patient's drug of choice, for free, and put them on a 9 to 12 months-long waiting list for actual treatment...treatment that is totally inadequate. Naturally, no one keeps a record of how many of those patients die from an overdose while waiting for treatment, but I know first-hand it isn't an uncommon occurrence.

Well, I disagree, and as I have stated I have seen it first-hand, granted I am only familiar with primarily one city, and to a lesser degree a second. So believe what you will.

 

[HermitHogan]

The government could purchase land and rent out lots for owners of mobile homes. Of course, there would also need to be protections put in place so private equity firms couldn't rent lots and then sublease them at a profit. That's not going to happen any time soon, but it could definitely help the current housing situation.

 

[Remy]

@Murrmurr That sounds like a nightmare. Aren't the lower income places subsidized by the government or something? How can they do this is they are deemed for low income people.

 

[Murrmurr]

@Murrmurr That sounds like a nightmare. Aren't the lower income places subsidized by the government or something? How can they do this is they are deemed for low income people.

There's no law prohibiting it.

That low-income housing agency was indeed subsidized by the state. Same with a lot of income-based mobile home parks. Subsidized but separate.

Calif got rid of Section 8 housing not long ago, too. It was a state program and couldn't be sold, but Calif can donate such programs to charitable organizations, so maybe that's what happened. (I'm not sure if they can donate them to NPOs, but I don't think so)

The state replaced Section 8 housing with a rent-voucher program, and that seems to have disappeared during the pandemic, or shortly before.

This kind of thing forces Californians to vote yes on fund proposals that promise more housing, cheaper housing, and rent and home-buying assistance, always to the tune of at least a couple billion $$.

About 8 years ago, Calif notoriously got voter approval to put 2.2 billion tax dollars toward low-income housing. The result; one complex with 52 2-br apartments. And these were renovated, not built from the ground up and then beautifully landscaped and all that. What is that...like $450,000 per unit? To renovate. Freaking crazy, right?

Well, a few years later, we fell for it even worse; we voted yes on building a bunch of brand new low-income complexes for $2.6 Billion of our tax dollars, and the state never even broke ground! All the contractors and architects were paid, utility companies given funds, equipment and materials purchased....and apparently, that soaked up the whole $2.6 Billion. No money left to purchase land and pay labor, I guess.

(that same year, a state auditor couldn't find $2 billion. It was there, and then it wasn't, and no one seems to know what happened to it)

 

[Murrmurr]

Well, I disagree, and as I have stated I have seen it first-hand, granted I am only familiar with primarily one city, and to a lesser degree a second. So believe what you will.

My belief is based on personal experiences, which include changes in medical and dental care, business ownership and licensing, insurance policies, building and renovation permits, my kids' public school policies and standards, and housing.

 

[rgp]

My belief is based on personal experiences, which include changes in medical and dental care, business ownership and licensing, insurance policies, building and renovation permits, my kids' public school policies and standards, and housing.

Well, sounds like we have had differing experiences on the same situation , as such I will stick with my belief , and I assume you will do the same.

And, lest we forget, we are in entirely different parts of the country [different in many ways].

 

[Murrmurr]

Well, sounds like we have had differing experiences on the same situation , as such I will stick with my belief , and I assume you will do the same.

And, lest we forget, we are in entirely different parts of the country [different in many ways].

Very true.

And I like hearing about experiences that differ from mine, especially from people who grew up and worked outside of my region of the country. It's fascinating how different (and enlightening) those experiences can be.

My work experience in Colorado is a significant one I'll share...

I was a psychiatric nurse at a massive 300-bed state facility for developmentally delayed adults and children. In the early-90s, a new state governor drastically cut funding for all such state facilities, and ours was forced to release 180-some of our mentally unwell patients. We were successful at placing about 1/3rd of them in group homes, including all of the young children. The rest were encouraged to come in for out-patient services, but were basically on their own. Only a minority of the adult patients had families; parents and adult siblings.

A couple dozen or so came in for out-patient services for a while, mainly to get medication. After a few months, we weren't allowed to release Rx meds to them, and they stopped coming in.

 

[VaughanJB]

Very true.

And I like hearing about experiences that differ from mine, especially from people who grew up and worked outside of my region of the country. It's fascinating how different (and enlightening) those experiences can be.

My work experience in Colorado is a significant one I'll share...

I was a psychiatric nurse at a massive 300-bed state facility for developmentally delayed adults and children. In the early-90s, a new state governor drastically cut funding for all such state facilities, and ours was forced to release 180-some of our mentally unwell patients. We were successful at placing about 1/3rd of them in group homes, including all of the young children. The rest were encouraged to come in for out-patient services, but were basically on their own. Only a minority of the adult patients had families; parents and adult siblings.

A couple dozen or so came in for out-patient services for a while, mainly to get medication. After a few months, we weren't allowed to release Rx meds to them, and they stopped coming in.

Thank you for the work you did.