Snowden says he would agree to a plea deal!

You see, Jackie is on the side of justice and probably the American way of meting it out. Further, who cares about Greenland...
 
There will be no justice I fear for either Mr. Snowden, or the political prisoner Chelsea Manning. Guess I am now branded as a possible subversive? Perhaps my vets will have to watch my six?? Eek. Good night all. Happy Thanksgiving! It has been fun sparring with you.
 

Shalimar said:
There will be no justice I fear for either Mr. Snowden, or the political prisoner Chelsea Manning. Guess I am now branded as a possible subversive? Perhaps my vets will have to watch my six?? Eek. Good night all. Happy Thanksgiving! It has been fun sparring with you.
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If that little weasel comes back here... there certainly WILL be justice. He will go to the pen where he belongs.
 
Debby said:
I'm with you Shalimar. I think the world needs to know what governments are doing to us for one thing. Transparency and the cold light of day on all their conniving and scheming. They're constantly bleating at us 'we're making you safer'. Yeah right....since when is the world safer with Britain telling it's airforce to blow Russian planes out of the sky, ISIS on the prowl (and we won't discuss how they came to be), Ukraine killing it's own citizens and governments being managed and manipulated, disposed of and/or supported even if they're dictators! Not safer, just more afraid.
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I agree with both of you, I'm glad he had the nerve to speak out, more of a hero, IMO. http://www.wired.com/2014/08/edward-snowden/#ch-1
 
So you don't believe that there should be surveillance of possible terrorist activities via email or phone calls... just so your appointment at the dog groomer can be confidential? Amazing.. I for one don't give a hoot who knows when Fido is going to the groomer or what time Auntie Rose is coming to dinner.... so long as they catch the guy planning to make a bomb... or is on his way to the ME to join ISIS.. or maybe planning a mass shooting.
 
I think when there is a reason to watch someone and a warrant has been issued as a result of presented proof, then watch them. But to spy on the average citizen AND those people with whom you are involved in business negotiations and/or you declare as 'friends', it changes the landscape entirely and puts the spy directly onto the slippery slope where the loss of civil liberties and rights are likely. That is to say, 'the people let them get away with it once, try for more and see if they scream'. And soon the people learn to be silent, not to question, not to step out of line.......

Keep in mind also, that knowing in advance didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombing from happening. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-usa-explosions-boston-congress-idUSBREA2P02Q20140326 Russia advised your FBI twice, that those two were involved with Chechyn terrorists and apparently, they were considered not important enough to watch. But they were happy to collect data on innocent citizens!

The question is how many of our rights are we willing to give up? And after we've given them up, if we (the people) ever decide that we've been had, and we want our rights back, what makes you think that those who've consistently lied to us to date, will dial it back and reinstate them.
 
Debby said:
I think when there is a reason to watch someone and a warrant has been issued as a result of presented proof, then watch them. But to spy on the average citizen AND those people with whom you are involved in business negotiations and/or you declare as 'friends', it changes the landscape entirely and puts the spy directly onto the slippery slope where the loss of civil liberties and rights are likely. That is to say, 'the people let them get away with it once, try for more and see if they scream'. And soon the people learn to be silent, not to question, not to step out of line.......

Keep in mind also, that knowing in advance didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombing from happening. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-usa-explosions-boston-congress-idUSBREA2P02Q20140326 Russia advised your FBI twice, that those two were involved with Chechyn terrorists and apparently, they were considered not important enough to watch. But they were happy to collect data on innocent citizens!

The question is how many of our rights are we willing to give up? And after we've given them up, if we (the people) ever decide that we've been had, and we want our rights back, what makes you think that those who've consistently lied to us to date, will dial it back and reinstate them.
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Here's a list of terror attacks that were unsuccessful because of surveillance. Unfortunately this is the world we live in Debby..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11
 
QuickSilver said:
Here's a list of terror attacks that were unsuccessful because of surveillance. Unfortunately this is the world we live in Debby..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11
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More about the NSA spying on Americans and false claims. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/top-5-claims-defenders-nsa-have-stop-making-remain-credible


1. The NSA has Stopped 54 Terrorist Attacks with Mass Spying

The discredited claim

NSA defenders have thrown out many claims about how NSA surveillance has protected us from terrorists, including repeatedly declaring that it has thwarted 54 plots. Rep. Mike Rogerssays it often. Only weeks after the first Snowden leak, US President Barack Obama claimed: “We know of at least 50 threats that have been averted” because of the NSA’s spy powers. Former NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander also repeatedly claimed that those programs thwarted 54 different attacks.

Others, including former Vice President Dick Cheney have claimed that had the bulk spying programs in place, the government could have stopped the 9/11 bombings, specifically noting that the government needed the program to locate Khalid al Mihdhar, a hijacker who was living in San Diego.

Why it’s not credible:

These claims have been thoroughly debunked. First, the claim that the information stopped 54 terrorist plots fell completely apart. In dramatic Congressional testimony, Sen. Leahy forced a formal retraction from NSA Director Alexander in October, 2013:

"Would you agree that the 54 cases that keep getting cited by the administration were not all plots, and of the 54, only 13 had some nexus to the U.S.?" Leahy said at the hearing. "Would you agree with that, yes or no?"
"Yes," Alexander replied, without elaborating.


​
But that didn’t stop the apologists. We keep hearing the “54 plots” line to this day.

As for 9/11, sadly, the same is true. The government did not need additional mass collection capabilities, like the mass phone records programs, to find al Mihdhar in San Diego. AsProPublica noted, quoting Bob Graham, the former chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee:

U.S. intelligence agencies knew the identity of the hijacker in question, Saudi national Khalid al Mihdhar, long before 9/11 and had the ability find him, but they failed to do so.

"There were plenty of opportunities without having to rely on this metadata system for the FBI and intelligence agencies to have located Mihdhar," says former Senator Bob Graham, the Florida Democrat who extensively investigated 9/11 as chairman of the Senate’s intelligence committee.


​
Moreover, Peter Bergen and a team at the New America Foundation dug into the government’s claims about plots in America, including studying over 225 individuals recruited by al Qaeda and similar groups in the United States and charged with terrorism, and concluded:

Our review of the government’s claims about the role that NSA "bulk" surveillance of phone and email communications records has had in keeping the United States safe from terrorism shows that these claims are overblown and even misleading...


​
When backed into a corner, the government’s apologists cite the capture of Zazi, the so-called New York subway bomber. However, in that case, the Associated Press reported that the government could have easily stopped the plot without the NSA program, under authorities that comply with the Constitution. Sens. Ron Wyden and Mark Udall have been saying this for a long time.

Both of the President’s hand-picked advisors on mass surveillance concur about the telephone records collection. The President’s Review Board issued a report in which it stated “the information contributed to terrorist investigations by the use of section 215 telephony meta-data was not essential to preventing attacks,” The Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (PCLOB) also issued a report in which it stated, “we have not identified a single instance involving a threat to the United States in which [bulk collection under Section 215 of the Patriot Act] made a concrete difference in the outcome of a counterterrorism investigation.”

And in an amicus brief in EFF’s case First Unitarian Church of Los Angeles v. the NSA case, Sens. Ron Wyden, Mark Udall, and Martin Heinrich stated that, while the administration has claimed that bulk collection is necessary to prevent terrorism, they “have reviewed the bulk-collection program extensively, and none of the claims appears to hold up to scrutiny.”

Even former top NSA official John Inglis admitted that the phone records program has not stopped any terrorist attacks aimed at the US and at most, helped catch one guy who shipped about $8,000 to a Somalian group that the US has designated as a terrorist group but that has never even remotely been involved in any attacks aimed at the US.
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Shalimar said:
I, like many others, respectfully disagree. I believe he is a true patriot. This socialist believes governments should be held to account. I only hope, in a similar situation, I would have half his courage. I love my country, Canadians are hugely patriotic. But it is incumbent upon us to expose heinous practices when they are done in our name. With my last breath, I will shout "J'accuse" if it is warranted. I will not countenance fascist acts. National secrets is often a catchall to cover anything a
particular government wishes to pretend did not occur.
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HIS opinion trumps the decisions of out Government when it comes to state secrets? NO WAY!!!!!! It's our problem and a few of our European allies who were and are being harmed by this traitor.
 
I spent 30 years of my life with access to officially Secret SAR information, during that time and up through now, I never betrayed that oath. Any person can have an opinion but in this case only Americans opinions count. Anyone who calls this man a hero is absolutely naive and totally wrong.
 
AZ Jim said:
I spent 30 years of my life with access to officially Secret SAR information, during that time and up through now, I never betrayed that oath. Any person can have an opinion but in this case only Americans opinions count. Anyone who calls this man a hero is absolutely naive and totally wrong.
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For this comment, we are on the same page.
 
SeaBreeze said:
I agree with both of you, I'm glad he had the nerve to speak out, more of a hero, IMO. http://www.wired.com/2014/08/edward-snowden/#ch-1
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SB So you like an issue he took advantage of our trust to obtain. How do you decide which government secret is to protect you, your home, your literal freedom? So, anyone who happened to obtain our plans to evacuate an embassy due to good intelligence that it would be attacked on x date would be a hero to tell our enemy all about it? When we were to invade Normandy fair game? In other words this twerp had NO insight as to the possible harm being done by his (in your words) heroic deed. I am ashamed of any American who thinks so little of his homeland that would turn to a traitor and hold him up as anything but despicable. These things come back to harm us in one way or another. BTW In your link the weasel is shown holding an American flag, if I had been present, I would have ripped it from his filthy hands. This brings to mind the tea party, they are "patriots" too, they say.

Remember these "patriots"? Julius Rosenberg (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (September 28, 1915 – June 19, 1953) were American citizens executed for conspiracy to commit espionage, relating to passing information about the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union.
 
Naive? Many things perhaps, but never that. Governments lie, cheat, steal, instil paranoia, all in the name of power. So it has always been. I will not willingly give up my civil liberties in the name of pseudo safety, nor grovel in the dirt of a false

patriotism designed to hide the erosion of democracy, and the increasing might of the military/spy complex. To such attempts/rationalisations I reply, "j'accuse!" Today's whistleblowers are the new patriots. I salute their courage. I salute their
willingness to live by their principles, in the TRUE American fashion. Ils sont tres formidable. Salut!
 
Shalimar said:
Naive? Many things perhaps, but never that. Governments lie, cheat, steal, instil paranoia, all in the name of power. So it has always been. I will not willingly give up my civil liberties in the name of pseudo safety, nor grovel in the dirt of a false

patriotism designed to hide the erosion of democracy, and the increasing might of the military/spy complex. To such attempts/rationalisations I reply, "j'accuse!" Today's whistleblowers are the new patriots. I salute their courage. I salute their
willingness to live by their principles, in the TRUE American fashion. Ils sont tres formidable. Salut!
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Learn the difference between a "whistle blower" and a "traitor". A whistle blower finds what he/she believes to be a problem within an organization and reports it within the confines of his country.. A traitor, as is the case here, is a contractor employee who comes across government top secret data and releases it to an enemy. Snowden is a common traitor and coward. No patriot he. I will only respond on this issue henceforth with fellow citizens affected.
 
Cry The Beloved Country! Our less than esteemed Prime Minister has rammed his version of the Patriot Act down our collective throats. According to law makers, probably unconstitutional. Should he be removed on October 19, there is considerable

belief it will be struck down. If not, we will take to the streets in civil disobedience. We will be arrested, and thrown in jail, regardless of age, creed, or colour, even those of us suffering from rampant claustrophobia. Such is the price of Canadian

freedom. This is the vigilance I honour! Freedom and tyranny are not the business of a few, but resonate with any and all who refuse to live in a police state, something which concerns many patriotic Americans today. If he had his way, Prime Minister

Harper would have us live in such a country also. Not in my name! I will wrap myself in the Maple Leaf and protest, again, and again, and again! "My country, true north strong and free, I will stand on guard for thee!" Happy Thanksgiving, my Canadian friends. Bonne fete.
 
By the way Jim, it was you, not I, that initiated first contact with each other on this thread. However, you are well within your rights to choose which posters you converse with. Ralphy, the op, was comfortable engaging all in this debate. It was not closed to any nationality. Therefore, I shall continue to offer my opinions where I feel so inclined.
 
Shalimar said:
By the way Jim, it was you, not I, that initiated first contact with each other on this thread. However, you are well within your rights to choose which posters you converse with. Ralphy, the op, was comfortable engaging all in this debate. It was not closed to any nationality. Therefore, I shall continue to offer my opinions where I feel so inclined.
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As you or cookie told me on another thread, you have no dog in this fight. I think the world of 99% of your opinions but when it comes to a matter of our security, I am less inclined to. You have every right to post what you feel but I reserve the right to consider your or anyone else's motives in what they post and how the issue might affect them. I am, however available to join in a rousing Kumbaya if you want.
 
Given the Protect America Act authorises the NSA to conduct warrantless surveillance on individuals outside the US, it is logical to wonder how many Canadian's rights to privacy have been affected by PRISM. No dog in this fight? Au contraire, on this issue I submit one giant Canadian Timberwolf.
 
Shalimar said:
Given the Protect America Act authorises the NSA to conduct warrantless surveillance on individuals outside the US, it is logical to wonder how many Canadian's rights to privacy have been affected by PRISM. No dog in this fight? Au contraire, on this issue I submit one giant Canadian Timberwolf.
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I am not a hunter so your Timberwolf is safe from me.
 
AZ Jim said:
Bottom line, we are not perfect but then what country is?
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Hey, I'm not pointing the finger at the USA alone Jim! My government has just done the same thing with Bill C51! Here in Canada, we have a saying, 'the US sneezes and we cough', and look what we caught! Our politicians caught the virus that causes the loss of rights and freedoms that we value so tremendously.
 
QuickSilver said:
Here's a list of terror attacks that were unsuccessful because of surveillance. Unfortunately this is the world we live in Debby..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11
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Well I'll raise you one White House Review Committee member to your Wikipedia and when I turn my card over it says, "A member of the White House review panel on NSA surveillance said he was “absolutely” surprised when he discovered the agency’s lack of evidence that the bulk collection of telephone call records had thwarted any terrorist attacks...." http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/nsa-program-stopped-no-terror-attacks-says-white-house-panel-f2D11783588

So you give up your rights to privacy so that the NSA can spy on everyone to catch terrorists and apparently none of it accomplished anything in that regard except now they know all about you, your purchasing habits, your peccadillos:playful:, who you see, where you go, who you meet..... I would guess that those people on the list you provided were caught by good old fashioned 'detective' work.
 

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