So Truly Proud of America !!!

[911]

Why love and loyalty for the U.S. is unconditional. I know we are not perfect, but then what country is? There is no other place that I would rather be or live than here in America. When I returned home from Vietnam, I never felt so relieved in my life to be back "home".

I also want to thank Veterans everywhere for helping to keep us free and safe. Thank You!

 

[Debby]

Amazing, I found a time when the US tried to help Aristede to keep his elected job. Now you show that a short time later in years, Aristede continued to do wrong so some countries, like Canada and the US, decided to take him out and allow the country to try to run itself. More reading and you will find that this one time priest was getting richer and richer by dealing money for himself and not for better living of the people or the nation would be my guess. I have not read further than what you have posted. Just hope that Hatia is now free of communism and heavy handed socialism so the people can decide themselves just what they really want to see for their health and protections.

I have found in all of my research, that the loyalties of countries are as fluid as water. Today they can be buddies, tomorrow, someone decides the other has to go.

As for Aristede, I have not found that he was guilty of much of anything except trying to do good things and perhaps not getting done as much as he and others would have liked. I also noticed that accusations against him seem to be primarily fabricated by enemies (who went on to become the 'government' in his place) and then adopted by a failed media to support the agenda of removing him because he was not useful or convenient. The decision to get rid of him after he demand justifiable reparations from France is a case in point.

Perhaps I have not seen something that you have about Aristede so would you do me a favour and give me the links that show his misdeeds? I would like to be as accurate as possible in my understanding of that situation.

 

[BobF]

Aristide was run off by the US. Wrong. Aristide was later run off by the Canadians and the US. Appears to be true. Somethings apparently were done wrong or Canada would not just do that, nor do I think the US would do that either.

 

[Debby]

I could give a number of different links that suggest that Aristede did nothing 'wrong' except demand repayment of a gross wrong by France. My guess is that considering the US's history with slavery and Canada's history with First Nations abuse, neither of our countries would like to see a precedent like repayment for that kind of abuse occurring anywhere in the world.

American historian Tom Reeves wrote the following upon his return as an observer to Haiti in 2004 (after Aristede had been kicked out):

'...This year, I found a U.S. occupation not unlikethat in Iraq, but one of which very few Canadians
or Americans are aware.The U.S. dominated occupation of Haiti after a violent and U.S.-supported
rebellion by vicious thugs and right-wing former military is scheduled to
give way June 20 (three weeks late) to a United Nations peace-keeping
force, headed by Brazil. The Haitian puppet regime of Gerard Latortue has
asked the Americans to remain, but the U.S. seems eager to get most of
its troops back to Iraq.....The reason Canada went along with the U.S. so completely may have little
to do with Haiti, and everything to do with Canadian politics. Martin seeks
to demonstrate that Canada is not “anti-US” in its foreign policy, despite
Canada's independent posture on Iraq. Haiti was the easiest place for this demonstration....'
http://www2.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti-archive-new/msg22292.html

Mr. Reeves also spoke to Kenneth Cooke who was our ambassador to Haiti at the time and according to the above communication, was told that he (Mr. Cooke) didn't really know why we went along with what CARICOM (a group of African and S. American nations) are typifying as a kidnapping of Aristede. And then as you can see from the
excerpt above, it would appear that it was done as a part of political posturing or 'an effort to guarantee a seat at the (popular) kids table'. The link I found and present here is really interesting inasmuch as it comes from someone who is respected in his field as a historian and is not a politician nor in the military. Reading it is a real eye opener to how things can happen in foreign affairs. And it's not too long or too hard to read.


Another thing that I just remembered was that after the US invaded Iraq, Canada refused to go along, because our then PM, Jean Chretien said no to the request. A short time later when Jean Chretien left office, Paul Martin took his place and that would have been the time that he and Canada's military were drafted to assist in the removal of Aristede. And one more link that looks with a cynical eye at the excuses and failings of Canada in that whole mess: http://www.dominionpaper.ca/features/2004/08/25/canada_in_.html

I am so disappointed in my country Bob. I feel like I wish I could apologize to Haiti and all the people who've suffered there as a result of our involvement!

 

[Debby]

Another interesting point was that in 2005, a woman named Michaelle Jean was appointed Canada's Governor General by PM Paul Martin. She was born in Haiti but her parents left that country in 1968 and she held her French citizenship until about 2006. Despite France having laws that prohibited 'their citizens' from holding political office in other countries, they pledged that they would not stand in the way of her appointment.

I cannot help but notice that she hailed from a country that was a slave colony of France, whose incredibly popular president was ousted by America and Canada as he was in the process of preparing to take France to court to regain $21 billion dollars and that when PM Paul Martin appoints her to a top Canadian diplomatic position, despite the French law that prohibits it, France than backs off and gives it their blessing. Was this Martin's token 'woman of colour in a top position' to assuage his guilt from the debacle that was the ousting of Aristede? Conjecture only of course.

 

[AZ Jim]

You do come across as America hating. Maybe you are not but you do sound a lot like it Debby. I am proud of us and damned glad to have been born here. As I have said elsewhere, we are not perfect but we strive to be.

 

[BobF]

AZ Jim, you are so right. For some one to pick such a topic and hammer it over and over is not thinking openly or clearly. The US has shown at least two different ways of working with that situation, both for and then against the same leader for that island nation. I don't see any reason to continue to hammer on the long gone issue.

 

[Debby]

You do come across as America hating. Maybe you are not but you do sound a lot like it Debby. I am proud of us and damned glad to have been born here. As I have said elsewhere, we are not perfect but we strive to be.

Well that may be the way it sounds Jim, but that's because you are looking at the words and ascribing them to me. I didn't write any of the multitude of links that I've provided and indeed many of them are direct from the 'pens' of your fellow Americans. I'm just looking with open eyes at the state of the world around me, our 'safety' in it and I'm providing access to you. What you do with it is not up to me.

Certainly there are worse places to be born, but from all the reading that I do, this whole 'pat myself on the back because my country/government is so righteous' is a pile of hooey and I include my own government in that now too. I've just spent the last couple days looking at Canada's involvement in the abuse and destruction of Haiti since 2004 and to say 'appalled' is to pick a word that doesn't even do it justice.

According to what I've read on numerous sites, the only reason we decided to conspire with America and France to take out Aristede was because the previous PM had refused to follow the US into Iraq and the subsequent PM decided we needed to 'get on board with our trading partner' on something.
"...(Canadian) Former Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham explained: “Foreign Affairs view was there is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came on side on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver.”

http://yvesengler.com/2014/02/28/why-did-canada-help-overthrow-haitis-government/

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm a 'hater' of America Jim and all you other Americans. I don't hate any of you, but I'm dead against (yeah, I guess you could say 'hate') governments that lie to us and tell us they are compassionate, kind, concerned about your safety and others well being, when the evidence abounds that they are anything but. And the evidence abounds that the USA has been doing all the things that I've provided links to, all around the world and it is also abundantly clear to me now, that my Canadian government has lost their backbone and lost their way in an effort to suck up to successive American administrations.

On an individual basis, most Americans, like most Canadians are great people, but 'perfection of spirit' is not what your administration is striving for.

 

[Debby]

AZ Jim, you are so right. For some one to pick such a topic and hammer it over and over is not thinking openly or clearly. The US has shown at least two different ways of working with that situation, both for and then against the same leader for that island nation. I don't see any reason to continue to hammer on the long gone issue.

Do the reading Bob and I think your opinion of your country's 'working with that situation' might change drastically. Remember, I'm not the one writing these things, other people have, and some of them are (like I've said repeatedly) your fellow Americans. The $64 question is, 'how interested in Truth are you'.

And the reason the world needs to keep talking about this Bob, is it shows a pattern of behaviour and intention that is going on today in countries around the world. Military and political manipulations, governments overthrown, terrorists funded.........and the safety of the world at risk. What good ever came from sweeping bad news under the rug?

 

[tnthomas]

Why love and loyalty for the U.S. is unconditional. I know we are not perfect, but then what country is? There is no other place that I would rather be or live than here in America. When I returned home from Vietnam, I never felt so relieved in my life to be back "home".

I also want to thank Veterans everywhere for helping to keep us free and safe. Thank You!

I felt the same way when I got back from Vietnam, for sure. My thanks to all vets as well!

 

[AZ Jim]

Debby, let me sum up my feelings on your attitude about America. It is like shooting fish in a barrel to collect anything negative about a country and present it as the reason for your negative feelings. Consider if someone were to do that about Canada. Compare countries all over the world and dwell on the negative then get back to me and tell me where we are ranked. Yes, I say you are at least for the present, a USA hater. You have a right to your opinion but to me it's like coming into my home and spilling red wine all over the carpet on purpose. *Whew*.....I had to get that off my chest......

 

[Grumpy Ol' Man]

My family and I are so blessed to have been born in and have lived our lives in the United States of America. We take so much for granted, having lived in relative luxury compared to so many others on God's Green Earth. I am proud to be an American. I am proud to have a son servicng in the United States Army.
I guess I'm confused, then, why we would try to hide the wrongs we have done. How can our Country become even better, if we allow things such as described in the Congressional Committee's Torture Report be swept under the rug? If a family member robs a bank, do we harbor them and act as if they don't exist? Of coure not!! We assist as justice in meted, hoping the person will learn from their mistakes. Putting the torture report out there should see it serve as an example of what we, as Americans, will not tolerate to have replicated.

It is still unbelievable those who suggest that we who support the release of the report are "haters". No person is without fautl. No country is without fault. America will be made stronger recognizing, confronting, and overcoming her errors in judgement. It is such a shame that partisan politics are so strong that they would hide our blemishes, assuming when swept under the rug the World will forget. The World already knows what went on in Gitmo. We will be respected by those who count, when owning up. Owning up won't make one iota difference with the jihadists sworn to kill each and every one of us.

 

[Debby]

Debby, let me sum up my feelings on your attitude about America. It is like shooting fish in a barrel to collect anything negative about a country and present it as the reason for your negative feelings. Consider if someone were to do that about Canada. Compare countries all over the world and dwell on the negative then get back to me and tell me where we are ranked. Yes, I say you are at least for the present, a USA hater. You have a right to your opinion but to me it's like coming into my home and spilling red wine all over the carpet on purpose. *Whew*.....I had to get that off my chest......

I guess you don't spend a lot of time on this forum or something Jim. Because if you were, you would see that I don't hold back on the harsh criticism of my own country when it's called for. And just as I said to QuickSilver, if you have a legitimate, supportable criticism to offer about my country, I won't call you hateful, or biased or a basher, but will give due consideration to your words, your message and your links.

What I find very interesting is that when I show evidence for all of my opinions, I am the hater instead of being seen as someone who is showing what is might truly be going on. That says more about the 'labellers' than it does about me or anyone else who brings evidence to light.

In 2013 a Gallup poll was taken of 66,000 people in 65 nations and the US was seen as the greatest threat to world peace. So obviously my fears about American hegemony are not held in isolation. http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008

But you're right, look at many other countries over the past twenty or thirty years and you'll find all sorts of atrocities. The difference is that most of them aren't touting their own human rights record and going around the world and telling everyone else how to improve. If you or Canada are going to engage in that kind of talk, then it behooves us to hold ourselves to the most rigid standards. Anything less makes us hypocrites wouldn't you say?

As I've said before, many Americans have written on the issues I've talked about. One of these is Dr. Paul C. Roberts who was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy under Ronald Reagan, as well as an Associate editor of the Wall Street Journal and numerous university appointments. Take a look at his website: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/category/articles/ You will see that one more time, I am not alone in any of the opinions that I've stated.

 

[SeaBreeze]

My family and I are so blessed to have been born in and have lived our lives in the United States of America. We take so much for granted, having lived in relative luxury compared to so many others on God's Green Earth. I am proud to be an American. I am proud to have a son servicng in the United States Army.
I guess I'm confused, then, why we would try to hide the wrongs we have done. How can our Country become even better, if we allow things such as described in the Congressional Committee's Torture Report be swept under the rug? If a family member robs a bank, do we harbor them and act as if they don't exist? Of coure not!! We assist as justice in meted, hoping the person will learn from their mistakes. Putting the torture report out there should see it serve as an example of what we, as Americans, will not tolerate to have replicated.

It is still unbelievable those who suggest that we who support the release of the report are "haters". No person is without fautl. No country is without fault. America will be made stronger recognizing, confronting, and overcoming her errors in judgement. It is such a shame that partisan politics are so strong that they would hide our blemishes, assuming when swept under the rug the World will forget. The World already knows what went on in Gitmo. We will be respected by those who count, when owning up. Owning up won't make one iota difference with the jihadists sworn to kill each and every one of us.

Well said Grumpy Ol' Man!

 

[BobF]

To the one that maximizes on hate and distrust about anything including her own country. Something I feel is unwanted to be known by most and also considered to be a hateful way of looking at life in general.

A couple links that I feel need to be known about as they show the ways so many countries try to help each other and how many also receive this help from others. These to me are much more positive to see and applaud than the hateful, doing it wrong or not doing enough list, being dug up and posted. That is all a lot of negative information and not one bit useful for anyone. No sense in trying to show just how bad some country was many years back, times and actions change all the time. I will post these several links and charts about who is helping and how they help and who is needing the help being provided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign_aid_received

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid

Lists are way too long so it will require linking to see what they consist of.