So Truly Proud of America !!!

BobF said:
Interesting comment. Who's moral high ground are we seeking? Who's integrity is being damaged by having different ideas? And not educating my self by somehow rejecting some posts? It depends on which part of the world being talked about. Your opinions only? Or maybe others ideas count too.

The report was apparently falsely put together and that pleases only part of one political party, not the nation. The worst is still yet to come as Australia may be finding out right now with a middle east religion threatening the people. The US is still fighting in the middle east, or should I say again; and so are some other countries.

Apparently not connection to the ways people were thinking for some time after the first attacks on the US. And those decisions were then agreed upon by the political parties and our courts. Now on a look back attempt to change history, that is all being tossed so more improper blame can be placed. Not sure who is not better educated at the moment.
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The high moral ground that the US has espoused forever: we are good, we are compassionate, we seek freedom, we help others to be free..... In fact the high moral ground which all compassionate people would hope for on behalf of those who are weak and disenfranchised everywhere. When you use that kind of language and then your government invades, destroys, threatens and subjugates, it sort of flies in the face of your own rhetoric. That I think would be considered a lack of integrity.

It was your own words where you stated that you wouldn't read a document (of national importance simply because it didn't meet your standards of production). It does also call into question whether you have taken any time to read any of the multitude of documents that I've linked to. Not that I take it personally because I didn't write any of those links, some of which actually are written by your fellow Americans. It just does sort of support the notion that you don't care to avail yourself of an opportunity to consider all points.

Falsely put together???? Again you ignore the fact that the Repubs refused to participate and that it was based on a perusal of 6,000,000 pages of the CIA's own documents.
 

It's good that you've had positive experiences when you've visited Canada. My husband has been reprocessing old photos of some of our holidays in the US and they included trips to Disneyland and SF with the kids and his various bike tours across the western US with several American buddies. We've been reliving through the pictures, many good times in our lives.

Don't get me wrong. There are innumerable ways that America is a great country and the world has been blessed in innumerable ways by the citizens of America. My beef is with those few guys at the top who are and have been, orchestrating terrible things in other places around the globe and then they come to all of us with lies that are meant for one thing and that is to cover it up and to deceive an otherwise good population about their agenda, goals and activities.

And what the heck, I have no idea if taking notice and talking about any of this will change anything. But in sixty years, I don't want to be one of those people that future people talk about like they do about the Hitler-era German civilians. Like when we say things such as 'how could they not know, how could they not say anything, how could they let it happen?'
 
You're right Debby when you mentioned our invasion and destabilization of other countries over the years, usually with the underlying purpose of oil and control. Why would anyone voluntarily want to write a report and make it public on unethical things they have done themselves? So folks like Cheney won't be involved in the project, but from what I read, he doesn't see any problem with the actions taken, those with a war mindset will never change, regardless of what happens to American citizens and military as a result. :rolleyes:
 

Canada is a beautiful country, we visited there by truck when we were young and tent camping. We were in areas like the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, etc. The scenery and wildlife were amazing!
 
Falcon said:
Elyzabeth, Thanks for your opinion of USA. I'm proud to be a member and not afraid to say so.

I feel the same about YOUR country, having been there and hope to visit again in the near future.
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;) Falcon, Elyzabeth is from the US. She just happens to live in England at the moment.
 
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And I do agree with her post on this thread. Sure a lot better than some of the twisted posts that a few are posting on this forum.
 
Torture is like Fight Club, never talk about Fight Club. That being said it torture is brutality. Throw in words like ticking clock all you want but torture is brutal. I'm with those that a reflection of the society is how they treat their prisoners. So I guess the US is an impatient the ends justify the means society.

It's not funny but I have laugh at some of the pundits who talk about the torture release as taking away one the tools they want to be used to protect their own selfish butt.

Shameful phase in US history.
 
BobF said:
And I do agree with her post on this thread. Sure a lot better than some of the twisted posts that a few are posting on this forum.
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Well considering that my oft expressed desire for the world is respect for one another, compassion, a safe life, honesty, etc., you can't possibly be talking about me eh Bob:biggrin-new:.
 
And yes Debby, you fit into my concerns about honesty etc. If you give no others thoughts any credibility then you are not all the things you claim to be.

You are ignoring that the report was done with no interviews at all. That the report was never shared with any other departments of the government for inputs or corrections. That the entire report was not wanted to be released just now as the US has folks living and working all around this world and possible terrorist targets. That this report is but one person or groups idea of good when most folks in the US are not involved in the decisions to devise this report or agree with the report. Many of our other agencies are hoping for mercy from the radicas but no one can say for sure if that will be possible. The US is already the target for some of the radicals groups that our prisoners were from. Sure hope they do not return if we leave them to go free.

Over the years the US has never attacked or destroyed any other governments around this world just based on our evil governments ideas. All places where the US has gone to war have been made into free countries and the US then left. I know of no country that the US has had war with has been kept by the US after the war. We have gone elsewhere and entered into fights for freedoms and where we lost, Vietnam, we left after several years. The US was actually a follow on to the French fight to stop the communist from taking over. Today, the communist have taken over but communist types of leadership were badly failing so they have softened up to where the people dress the way they want, not into drab old look alike uniforms. Life in that part of the world is more like Europe areas now. They now act more like free people and we do lots of business with China, Vietnam, and other once true blue communist types of governments. But they still do need to have freedom from their restrictive governments ways.
 
Torture like art is in the eye of the beholder. "not to shout in terror suspects''

Or otherwise put, torture is an art form.
British soldiers have been told not to shout in terror suspects' ears, use "insulting words", or bang their fists on tables or walls during interrogations, according to a published report.
Britain's Sunday Telegraph obtained court papers outlining regulations for military intelligence officers, and current and former commanders have warned that the guidelines are so strict as to make interrogation pointless.
"The effect of the ambulance-chasing lawyers and the play-it-safe judges is that we have got to the point where we have lost our operational capability to do tactical questioning. That in itself brings risks to the lives of the people we deploy," Tim Collins, a retired British Army colonel who now runs a private security company, told the Telegraph. "These insurgents are not nice people. These are criminals. They behead people; they keep sex slaves. They are not normal people."
There is also concern, in the wake of this week's release of a report by the Senate Intelligence Committee documenting alleged torture of terror suspects by the CIA following the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, that soldiers will risk exposure to disciplinary action and legal claims.
"While these insurgents are chopping people’s heads off and raping women, the idea they can take us to court because somebody shouted at them is ridiculous," Sir Alan West, former Minister for Security and Counter-Terrorism told the paper.
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oh my god!

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/12/14/british-soldiers-told-not-to-shout-at-insult-terror-suspects-report-claims/
 
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Agree that it's ridiculous, and too far in the other direction, but actual torture does no good at all[ apart from the ethics of it.] people will say anything under torture just to make it stop for a while.They will admit something, and then later deny it over and over again, until nobody knows what is true.
 
For the life of me I don't know what all the fuss is about. Goody goody, softly,softly approach when dealing with the military, what a hoot.
Russia, North Korea, the Taleban, ISIS etc.etc. must be sniggering up their sleeves.

Debby;
Well considering that my oft expressed desire for the world is respect for one another, compassion, a safe life, honesty, etc
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Tell that to the marauders.
 
Fern said:
For the life of me I don't know what all the fuss is about. Goody goody, softly,softly approach when dealing with the military, what a hoot.
Russia, North Korea, the Taleban, ISIS etc.etc. must be sniggering up their sleeves.

Debby;
Tell that to the marauders.
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Doesn't matter what the marauders think does it? Do you decide in your personal life that you will do 'wrong' because everyone else is doing it, or do you hold yourself to a higher standard than the bad guys? Do you decide to do right because it's the right thing to do?

And Bob, you ignore the fact that the CIA refused to engage. They made that choice and you're buying into their whining now. Ooooh nobody talked to us, boo hoo.
And you are ignoring the fact that the 6,000,000 documents reviewed were written by their own hands.
 
BobF said:
And yes Debby, you fit into my concerns about honesty etc. If you give no others thoughts any credibility then you are not all the things you claim to be.

You are ignoring that the report was done with no interviews at all. That the report was never shared with any other departments of the government for inputs or corrections. That the entire report was not wanted to be released just now as the US has folks living and working all around this world and possible terrorist targets. That this report is but one person or groups idea of good when most folks in the US are not involved in the decisions to devise this report or agree with the report. Many of our other agencies are hoping for mercy from the radicas but no one can say for sure if that will be possible. The US is already the target for some of the radicals groups that our prisoners were from. Sure hope they do not return if we leave them to go free.

Over the years the US has never attacked or destroyed any other governments around this world just based on our evil governments ideas. All places where the US has gone to war have been made into free countries and the US then left. I know of no country that the US has had war with has been kept by the US after the war. We have gone elsewhere and entered into fights for freedoms and where we lost, Vietnam, we left after several years. The US was actually a follow on to the French fight to stop the communist from taking over. Today, the communist have taken over but communist types of leadership were badly failing so they have softened up to where the people dress the way they want, not into drab old look alike uniforms. Life in that part of the world is more like Europe areas now. They now act more like free people and we do lots of business with China, Vietnam, and other once true blue communist types of governments. But they still do need to have freedom from their restrictive governments ways.
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You have never done a study on your governments activities overseas. Last night, I finished reading about Jean Bertrand Aristede of Haiti and from that reading it sounds like he was a really good man with a great heart for his people. He got booted by the US as a favour to France. In 1804 when there was a slave rebellion and France was turfed from Haiti, they demanded 'payment' from their erstwhile slaves that in todays dollars would amount to $21 billion. Aristede was in the processing of setting up a legal case to demand reparations from France on behalf of the people of Haiti and within that year, the US came in an yanked him out of the presidency and they occupied Haiti. And Canada protected the airfield and the streets of Haiti so that it could be done without rioting, etc. That's one more instance of your country invading and occupying and taking out a leader that was loved by his people, because the USA had an agenda that didn't include fairness or justice.

They then set up another puppet government who was amenable to the US's wishes. You are so naive.
 
Debby said:
Doesn't matter what the marauders think does it? Do you decide in your personal life that you will do 'wrong' because everyone else is doing it, or do you hold yourself to a higher standard than the bad guys? Do you decide to do right because it's the right thing to do?

And Bob, you ignore the fact that the CIA refused to engage. They made that choice and you're buying into their whining now. Ooooh nobody talked to us, boo hoo.
And you are ignoring the fact that the 6,000,000 documents reviewed were written by their own hands.
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And our government had not reviewed and approved disclosure. Obama has been busy trying to get prepared for any attacks because of this irrational and one sided release of security stuff. Want to stay clean and out of more combat. best stop the hand wringing of your as accept honesty as it really is and not invented only to your ideas of right and wrong. We all have the ability to judge right and wrong and just hope we are the closest to the general beliefs. Many in the US are very unhappy with what this person so randomly, and without reviews and permissions, released to the views of several of the US enemies. Now we just have to wait and see how all this perceived recklessness evolves. We both think differently so in a year or two, maybe one of us will have a true answer to who is most correct. Remember that too much goodness from England got them heavily involved in WWII.
 
Debby said:
You have never done a study on your governments activities overseas. Last night, I finished reading about Jean Bertrand Aristede of Haiti and from that reading it sounds like he was a really good man with a great heart for his people. He got booted by the US as a favour to France. In 1804 when there was a slave rebellion and France was turfed from Haiti, they demanded 'payment' from their erstwhile slaves that in todays dollars would amount to $21 billion. Aristede was in the processing of setting up a legal case to demand reparations from France on behalf of the people of Haiti and within that year, the US came in an yanked him out of the presidency and they occupied Haiti. And Canada protected the airfield and the streets of Haiti so that it could be done without rioting, etc. That's one more instance of your country invading and occupying and taking out a leader that was loved by his people, because the USA had an agenda that didn't include fairness or justice.

They then set up another puppet government who was amenable to the US's wishes. You are so naive.
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......................................

Wrong again? I found this as I don't remember the US ever just knocking off other countries leaders without cause. Like for Panama. In this case they helped the deposed leader get back his job.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34400/Jean-Bertrand-Aristide

From within this article is:

Encouraged to run for president by the mass movement known as the Lavalas (which means “flood” or “torrent” in Creole), Aristide in 1990 won Haiti’s first free democratic election and was inaugurated on February 7, 1991. As president he initiated a literacy program, dismantled the repressive system of rural section chiefs, and oversaw a drastic reduction in human rights violations. His reforms, however, angered the military and Haiti’s elite, and on September 30, 1991, Aristide was ousted in a coup. He lived in exile until October 15, 1994, when the military, faced with a U.S. invasion, agreed to let Aristide return to power. He resumed the presidency, and, although he remained popular with the masses, he was unable to find effective solutions to the country’s economic problems and social inequalities. Barred constitutionally from seeking a consecutive term, he stepped down as president in 1996.
 
BobF said:
......................................

Wrong again? I found this as I don't remember the US ever just knocking off other countries leaders without cause. Like for Panama. In this case they helped the deposed leader get back his job.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34400/Jean-Bertrand-Aristide

From within this article is:

Encouraged to run for president by the mass movement known as the Lavalas (which means “flood” or “torrent” in Creole), Aristide in 1990 won Haiti’s first free democratic election and was inaugurated on February 7, 1991. As president he initiated a literacy program, dismantled the repressive system of rural section chiefs, and oversaw a drastic reduction in human rights violations. His reforms, however, angered the military and Haiti’s elite, and on September 30, 1991, Aristide was ousted in a coup. He lived in exile until October 15, 1994, when the military, faced with a U.S. invasion, agreed to let Aristide return to power. He resumed the presidency, and, although he remained popular with the masses, he was unable to find effective solutions to the country’s economic problems and social inequalities. Barred constitutionally from seeking a consecutive term, he stepped down as president in 1996.
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Until 1804, Haiti was a slave island that 'belonged' to France. Absolutely terrible things were done to the native population under the French. In 1804 there was a massive slave rebellion and the French were finally forced out. You can read about how France treated their slaves and the rebellion that freed them from monsters, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_Massacre

In 1825 France demanded 90 million gold francs from Haiti to make up for the massacre and financial losses accrued. http://www.globalresearch.ca/haiti-...and-colonialism-and-international-aid/5334619 That 'debt' plus interest, was finally paid in total in 1947.

*****************

It should be noted that in 1994 Bill Clinton returned Aristede to office, via US troop deployment, following a massive, peaceful public campaign to bring him back. It should also be noted that typically, while the UN was trying to force out the guys who were in power prior to Aristedes return, by use of trade embargoes and sanctions, the US granted themselves the right to ignore that so that several corporations could get in there and make money. Screw the UN trade embargoes eh? Sort of like American Assistant Secretary of State to the EU, Victoria Nulands infamous 'Screw the EU' statement wouldn't you say?

And something else that's interesting and relevant to this discussion, the group that had to be forced out by Clintons troop deployment was apparently a man who was 'paid and owned' by the CIA: A campaign of terror against Aristide supporters was started by Emmanuel Constant after Aristide was forced out. In 1993, Constant, who had been on the CIA's payroll as an informant since 1992, organized the Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haïti (FRAPH), which targeted and killed Aristide supporters.[SUP][37][/SUP][SUP][38][/SUP][SUP][39] [/SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bertrand_Aristide


Between 2001-2004, Aristede was putting together a legal claim for return of $21 Billion dollars (current value of 90 mill. gold francs) from France and in 2004: '...Finally, on February 29, U.S. Marines occupied the National Palace and forced Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide into exile. Canadian troops secured the airport from which he was flown out of the country....' http://www.globalresearch.ca/canada-and-haiti-relief-efforts-in-the-shadow-of-past-help/17021

'...Although the French parliament had unanimously approved a law recognizing the slave trade as a crime against humanity in 2001, just two years later France responded to Haiti’s petition with fury. It angrily rejected the lawsuit and joined with Washington in brazenly fomenting a coup d’état against Aristide, who was ousted on Feb. 29, 2004.'http://www.globalresearch.ca/haiti-independence-debt-reparations-for-slavery-and-colonialism-and-international-aid/5334619

Perhaps it was the notion that slaves should not only be free, but that they deserve reparation that encouraged Washington to join France in ousting a beloved President who had a great heart for his people and who had done a multitude of good and just things for an island nation of seriously impoverished people.

Your link touches on a good deal of what I've been reading about as regards the greatness of Aristede, including the part you highlighted about a 'US invasion'. So yes, Bob, the American administration always has a reason, but a real study of American foreign relations will show that the reason is seldom what is really going behind the public facade. We have in the past only been able to find out about the issues after the fact. Thanks however to the internet, that ability to hide the truth is becoming more and more difficult as more people start comparing what they can see real time as compared to what the mainstream media is offering.
 
Amazing, I found a time when the US tried to help Aristede to keep his elected job. Now you show that a short time later in years, Aristede continued to do wrong so some countries, like Canada and the US, decided to take him out and allow the country to try to run itself. More reading and you will find that this one time priest was getting richer and richer by dealing money for himself and not for better living of the people or the nation would be my guess. I have not read further than what you have posted. Just hope that Hatia is now free of communism and heavy handed socialism so the people can decide themselves just what they really want to see for their health and protections.
 

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