Southern Baptist Convention moves to strike women from holding leadership roles in its churches

seadoug

seadoug

Well-known Member
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:( What a shame. And they lost over 457k members in 2022. What year is this again?
  • The Southern Baptist Convention moved to strike women from holding leadership roles in its churches. The organization also voted to finalize the expulsion of two churches for having female pastors, Saddleback Church in Southern California and Fern Creek Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.
Reference:
Southern Baptist Convention bans female pastors, ejecting ...
 

seadoug said:
:( What a shame. And they lost over 457k members in 2022. What year is this again?
  • The Southern Baptist Convention moved to strike women from holding leadership roles in its churches. The organization also voted to finalize the expulsion of two churches for having female pastors, Saddleback Church in Southern California and Fern Creek Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.
Reference:
Southern Baptist Convention bans female pastors, ejecting ...
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Such a shame, they're gone down the rabbit hole of extremism, taking virtually millions of [otherwise] well meaning people with them.
 
Well, the Bible does say "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." (somewhere in Timothy)

It was a pretty big deal when churches started allowing women to preach, but church-goers have debated about it ever since. Some churches had already allowed women to be ordained but not preach sermons. They could teach children and be women's advisors, but not do sermons in front of the congregation.
 

Murrmurr said:
Well, the Bible does say "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." (somewhere in Timothy)

It was a pretty big deal when churches started allowing women to preach, but church-goers have debated about it ever since. Some churches had already allowed women to be ordained but not preach sermons. They could teach children and be women's advisors, but not do sermons in front of the congregation.
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Yes, they said the vote was based on Biblical scripture.
 
seadoug said:
:( What a shame. And they lost over 457k members in 2022. What year is this again?
  • The Southern Baptist Convention moved to strike women from holding leadership roles in its churches. The organization also voted to finalize the expulsion of two churches for having female pastors, Saddleback Church in Southern California and Fern Creek Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.
Reference:
Southern Baptist Convention bans female pastors, ejecting ...
Click to expand...
Just amazing and disgusting also. Why certain religions discriminate against women and other minorities. I'm thankful I walked away from organized religion as soon as I entered high school. Also thankful my parents weren't religious fanatics who were intolerant and hateful of others. What you mentioned is more than a shame. :(
 
SeaBreeze said:
Just amazing and disgusting also. Why certain religions discriminate against women and other minorities. I'm thankful I walked away from organized religion as soon as I entered high school. Also thankful my parents weren't religious fanatics who were intolerant and hateful of others. What you mentioned is more than a shame. :(
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Yes, I grew up in the Southern Baptist church as well so I saw it all. My parents stopped going as well because of everything they saw so there was no pressure when I left. I'm with you.
 
I am not a Southern Baptist. I have no idea what the arguments are on both sides. It’s not a matter for the courts or public opinion. Let them figure it out for themselves.

I must admit I am amused when atheists and agnostics start pontificating about how this or that church should be run. Pun intended. :)
 
Jesus Christ got it 'right' with women - but his male disciples [interesting that he had female followers but not disciples??] got it wrong with him on a few occasions starting from Peter and of course Judas ?? - He [picked out a band of ; was baptised by John a preacher of what?] I think he loved his 'mum' as well as the entire world ? - I've always been curious about what happened to his 'dad' - I think [personally] he was fitting in with the times to some extent - so perhaps even having female followers was extreme? - one washed his feet - was that extreme? He was about to make monumental changes to religion in the world - small steps at a time perhaps. Did Jesus love women ??- almost certainly from a boy!
 
seadoug said:
The Southern Baptist Convention moved to strike women from holding leadership roles in its churches.
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My family is about half Southern Baptist and I grew up going to a Southern Baptist church whenever my paternal grandmother was around. So this is no surprise to me, I can tell worse tails. Instead I'll tell a good one.

My father died in 2015 and had not been to church since 1948. When he died he asked to be buried by his Baptist Church of childhood in a small Louisiana town. It was left to me to contact the minister, I was fearful that we couldn't get it done. The Baptist minister was very nice about it and said that "anybody is welcome back anytime", he did a very nice ceremony. If I was a believer I'd have probably joined his church.

Murrmurr said:
I know first hand it was a big deal among Mormons...
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The Mormons are moving ever so slowly towards more rights for women, I think they are on the 1,000 year plan. However it is hard to forget their excommunication of a woman, Sonia Johnson, in 1977 for supporting the ERA... They are still far short of equality, see Mormonism and women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_women).
Brookswood said:
I am not a Southern Baptist. I have no idea what the arguments are on both sides. It’s not a matter for the courts or public opinion. Let them figure it out for themselves.

I must admit I am amused when atheists and agnostics start pontificating about how this or that church should be run. Pun intended.
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Actually as an agnostic I agree with you. I'm a supporter of religious freedom and the right of any church or organization to set their own rules on things like this. Just so long as that freedom allows folks not to join or leave freely... Doesn't mean I have to like it or agree.
 
SeaBreeze said:
Why certain religions discriminate against women and other minorities.
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They believe it's God's wish or command. Hard to argue with that, also hard for me to agree.

During the civil rights era in the 60s my grandmother, a Southern Baptist, often quoted the bible in support of different treatment of black people. She was a kind lady and never supported what she considered mistreatment, she hated the KKK and never allowed the use of the N word in her house. But she honestly believed God did not want the races to mix or be treated equally. Fortunately there are fewer people who believe that today...
 
Alligatorob said:
My family is about half Southern Baptist and I grew up going to a Southern Baptist church whenever my paternal grandmother was around. So this is no surprise to me, I can tell worse tails. Instead I'll tell a good one.

My father died in 2015 and had not been to church since 1948. When he died he asked to be buried by his Baptist Church of childhood in a small Louisiana town. It was left to me to contact the minister, I was fearful that we couldn't get it done. The Baptist minister was very nice about it and said that "anybody is welcome back anytime", he did a very nice ceremony. If I was a believer I'd have probably joined his church.


The Mormons are moving ever so slowly towards more rights for women, I think they are on the 1,000 year plan. However it is hard to forget their excommunication of a woman, Sonia Johnson, in 1977 for supporting the ERA... They are still far short of equality, see Mormonism and women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_women).

Actually as an agnostic I agree with you. I'm a supporter of religious freedom and the right of any church or organization to set their own rules on things like this. Just so long as that freedom allows folks not to join or leave freely... Doesn't mean I have to like it or agree.
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My first wife was Mormon. I didn't learn all their secrets because we didn't marry in the temple and I didn't get baptized or even attend, but I know the basics, which is the most that most of their members know.

But as to gender "inequality" in religion, it's plain all over the Bible that women are not equal to men. Women's role and purpose is clear throughout. And some scriptures recommend a few very severe punishments for women who don't obey the rules. You can kill them for that, and everybody's cool with it.

So, I wonder if the devout will be reviving the ol' bad-woman-killing tradition?
 
Alligatorob said:
My family is about half Southern Baptist and I grew up going to a Southern Baptist church whenever my paternal grandmother was around. So this is no surprise to me, I can tell worse tails. Instead I'll tell a good one.

My father died in 2015 and had not been to church since 1948. When he died he asked to be buried by his Baptist Church of childhood in a small Louisiana town. It was left to me to contact the minister, I was fearful that we couldn't get it done. The Baptist minister was very nice about it and said that "anybody is welcome back anytime", he did a very nice ceremony. If I was a believer I'd have probably joined his church.
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Similar story with my father. He moved from North Carolina in the 60's but his mother and father were buried in a cemetery there. He passed away in South Florida and I flew his body to NC so our relatives could attend his service and oversaw his funeral. My mother was agoraphobic and couldn't attend.

Although my father hadn't attended church since the 70's, since he was Southern Baptist the pastor at the local baptist church willingly agreed to attend and offer a sermon. I guess it helped that my grandfather's name was on a plaque on one of the bricks at that church.
 
It all boils down to your interpretation of Scripture! If you believe in an inerrant Bible ( i.o.w. every word is inspired and "dictated" by God,) or if you look at it as uniquely inspired in many parts, but written down by fallible men who were writing with all the prejudices of their time!

The former practically demands that women keep silent in the churches, for all time, while the latter will explain the reasoning behind the response of the early church: it is already a scandal that women worship in the same place as men, let us not aggravate things by having them shout questions during worship services! Let them wait until they get home and then question their husbands when it comes to spiritual matters! I am afraid that many of my brothers and sisters in the Southern Baptist Convention still believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God, therefore they can do no other but to try to follow every command written down!
 
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Old Salt said:
It all boils down to your interpretation of Scripture! If you believe in an inerrant Bible ( i.o.w. every word is inspired and "dictated" by God,) or if you look at it as "inspired" in parts, but written down by fallible men who were writing with all the prejudices of their time!

The former practically demands that women keep silent in the churches, for all time, while the latter will explain the reasoning behind the response of the early church: it is already a scandal that women worship in the same place as men, let us not aggravate things by having them shout questions during worship services! Let them wait until they get home and then question their husbands when it comes to spiritual matters! I am afraid that many of my brothers and sisters in the Southern Baptist Convention still believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God, therefore they can do no other but to try to follow every command written down!
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You are so right. I've had a long history with religion. I joined The Church of Christ after attending the Southern Baptist church because one of my good friends' father was an Elder there. They interpreted everything in the Old Testament back to the original Greek. That is how literally they adhered to scripture. They allowed no musical instruments of any kind and one needed to be Baptized in water (even those who were infirm) to be saved. I think all religions need to balance scripture with the current times we are living in without giving up their overall principles.
 
"…{M}any religious groups really don’t worship God, they worship the scriptures…Even though {one of} the commandment{s} says, 'You shall have no other God before me,' the Scripture worshippers put the writings ahead of God. Instead of interpreting God’s actions in nature, for example, they interpret nature in the light of the Scripture. Nature says the rock is billions of years old, but the book says different, so even though men wrote the book, and God made the rock and God gave us minds that have found ways to tell how old {the rock} is, {some} still choose to believe the Scripture. "
~~from The Fresco by Sheri S. Tepper
 
Murrmurr said:
My first wife was Mormon. I didn't learn all their secrets because we didn't marry in the temple and I didn't get baptized or even attend, but I know the basics, which is the most that most of their members know.

But as to gender "inequality" in religion, it's plain all over the Bible that women are not equal to men. Women's role and purpose is clear throughout. And some scriptures recommend a few very severe punishments for women who don't obey the rules. You can kill them for that, and everybody's cool with it.

So, I wonder if the devout will be reviving the ol' bad-woman-killing tradition?
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Christ showed a different moral compass regarding women than most
 
seadoug said:
You are so right. I've had a long history with religion. I joined The Church of Christ after attending the Southern Baptist church because one of my good friends' father was an Elder there. They interpreted everything in the Old Testament back to the original Greek. That is how literally they adhered to scripture. They allowed no musical instruments of any kind and one needed to be Baptized in water (even those who were infirm) to be saved. I think all religions need to balance scripture with the current times we are living in without giving up their overall principles.
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I once attended C of C in Oz - I believe they had affliations with the Usa versions - I played my saxaphone regularly in the church band ; ssomeone had guitar and another a trumpet - did we play up a storm. And sometimes the gifted females got up to sing ??
 
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Murrmurr said:
Well, the Bible does say "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." (somewhere in Timothy)

It was a pretty big deal when churches started allowing women to preach, but church-goers have debated about it ever since. Some churches had already allowed women to be ordained but not preach sermons. They could teach children and be women's advisors, but not do sermons in front of the congregation.
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The Bible is a collection of many books, some were written down many generations after the events thay chronicle.

The above quote comes from one of the letters written to the fledgling churches by Paul, Timothy or other disciples. They reflect the mores of the various cities where the churches were established - Rome, Jerusalem, Corinth, Ephesis etc. For example, women are apparently forbidden to have their heads uncovered.

Paul asked this question -

1 Corinthians 11:13
1 Corinthians 14:34

My question - Are Baptist women required to cover their heads in church or when saying grace?

Another question - are Christians bound by the fullness of Jewish laws as this instruction in 1 Corinthians 14:34 instructs?

"The women must not be allowed to speak. They must keep quiet and listen, as the Law of Moses teaches." 1 Cor 14:34
Nathan said:
I remember back in the '70s there being female Methodist ministers. It wasn't a "big deal" back then.
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In Australia there were women in Methodist churches who held the status of deaconesses from the beginning of the Australian Methodist Church being officially recognised at Federation (1901). They served in regions where ordained ministers were few and far between. In 1977, the Methodists, some Presbyterians and Congregationalists merged to form the Uniting Church in Australia, modelled on the United Church of Canada. The deaconesses were immediately ordained as full Ministers of the Word and their number has continued to grow ever since.

Catholic nuns in Australia are still waiting for the same recognition. They are still not able to preside over the Eucharist and other sacraments.
 
Ahah - I once worked for a covent order in Oz - and attended their sunday service a/m - I was NOT permitted to take part in the eucharist and a male priest officiated - later one of the nuns sang a solo psalm most heavenly. However at one point a new priest arrived and on hearing they weren;t offering me the bread and wine - he took things into his own hands and waved me to come forward and partake - a kindly soul!
 

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