Spend now pay later

Knight

Knight

Well-known Member
It's not if but when will all this take it's negative toll on America. The last about deficit is the most interesting to me.

Bankruptcy Filings Rise 16.8 Percent

Published on January 26, 2024

Total bankruptcy filings rose 16.8 percent, with significant increases in both business and non-business bankruptcies, in the twelve-month period ending Dec. 31, 2023. This accelerates a continuing rebound in filings after more than a decade of sharply dropping totals.

According to statistics released by the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts, annual bankruptcy filings totaled 452,990 in the year ending December 2023, compared with 387,721 cases in the previous year.

Business filings rose 40.4 percent, from 13,481 to 18,926, in the year ending Dec. 31, 2023. Non-business bankruptcy filings rose 16 percent to 434,064, compared with 374,240 in December 2022.

Bankruptcy Filings Rise 16.8 Percent

American Credit Card Debt Hits a New Record—What’s Changed Post-Pandemic?
Posted on October 31, 2023
It’s Halloween! And while you may be thinking of goblins and ghosts, nothing can haunt you the way credit card debt does. While consumers’ credit card debt dropped during COVID, signs point to it starting to crawl back to pre-pandemic levels. And over the summer, credit card usage in the U.S. reached a new milestone—with balances totaling over $1 trillion.

American Credit Card Debt Hits a New Record—What’s Changed Post-Pandemic?

What is the national deficit?
A deficit occurs when the federal government’s spending exceeds its revenues. The federal government has spent $510 billion more than it has collected in fiscal year (FY) 2024, resulting in a national deficit.

$509,940,968,337
Fiscal year-to-date (since October 2023) total updated monthly using the Monthly Treasury Statement (MTS) dataset.

Compared to the national deficit of $421 billion for the same period last year (Oct 2022 - Dec 2022), our national deficit has increased by $89 billion.
Fiscal Data Explains the National Deficit
 

This amount of money is very hard for me to understand. The massive amounts of money being traded and borrowed and spending is beyond me. I can not engage in an intelligent discussion about it. I have tried several times and it all comes down to the taxes that the citizens pay. It gets collected by the Gov.. We vote for people of our interests to divide up the collected pot of money. This where I get lost. The speculation about what happens to it is talked about often, but it begins to sound like deals are being made by other actors. It becomes to complex even for there to be a consensus of what happens to it.

I guess the word is apportionment? Where does our money go? I feel like it should go to help the US become healthy again, more than anything. There is too many neglected needs that we citizens have NOW.
 
It's particularly concerning that so many businesses had to file.

I remember a few cities in my state (California) filed for bankruptcy. Whole freaking cities because elected city officials went hog-wild spending their city's money on themselves and their families. They bought mansions - in the east, ffs - and then furnished them and added custom outdoor pools and massive party rooms. They bought luxury cars, luxury clothes and jewelry, and just emptied the city's coffers, and drained the city's reserves. It was insane.

And maybe if an average family home didn't cost $600,000 and the average monthly rent wasn't $999.999 per bedroom, maybe then the average earner wouldn't have to rely on their credit cards for all the "extras".
 

People are living beyond their means. I was born in 1946 and my parents didn't buy anything on credit. They never had a credit card unless it was at Sears (my dad got tires there) and JC Penney, which was for clothes and house goods. They had a strict budget and that's what they stuck to. If they couldn't afford it, they didn't get it.

Today, the younger generation want everything right now and they go into debt to get it. How can you possibly pay off a credit card when you've racked up $10,000 + @ 25% interest??? It boggles my mind. So many people took advantage of the craziness in the early 2000's and bought homes they couldn't afford but there was so much "creative" financing going on (my brother-in-law was part of that) that anyone could get a house no matter what their credit rating was. So many lost their homes because they opted for variable interest rates instead of a fixed rate.

People don't live within their means and don't want to. Instant gratification is the norm.
 
Today, the younger generation want everything right now and they go into debt to get it. How can you possibly pay off a credit card when you've racked up $10,000 + @ 25% interest??? It boggles my mind. So many people took advantage of the craziness in the early 2000's and bought homes they couldn't afford but there was so much "creative" financing going on (my brother-in-law was part of that) that anyone could get a house no matter what their credit rating was. So many lost their homes because they opted for variable interest rates instead of a fixed rate.

People don't live within their means and don't want to. Instant gratification is the norm.
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I agree totally. I use a credit card because I don't like to carry cash with me for regular shopping and bill payments but I don't like big amount limits on my card. Although I can control what I can/should spend. Unfortunately prices keep increasing constantly and therefore you have to watch even more what you can/should spend.
 
Paco Dennis said:
I guess the word is apportionment? Where does our money go? I feel like it should go to help the US become healthy again, more than anything. There is too many neglected needs that we citizens have NOW.
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Given the impact of what seems likely, the ability to help those most in need will probably take the biggest hit. Most if not everyone understands what happens when you can't pay for what you owe. So what happens if the U S government defaults?
How a debt default could affect you.

Given the variety of ongoing & recent events perhaps those in their mid 50's & early 60's will find out.
 
I always...always pay off my credit card in full long before the end of the month. Not because I can particualrly afford to..or that I;m rich... but because I cannot afford NOT to.... I have a terror of debt.. a real fear.

I have never been made bankrupt, or opted for bankruptcy... but my husband did soon after we got married, because the tax man wanted to take more from him than he ever earned.. it was a travesty and so bankruptcy was the only answer, he certainly wasn't going to pay, and they were like a dog with a bone, and would have taken everything from him that they could..

The fortunate thing was that he lived in my home.. so he had nothing they could take.. and because he lived with me, he found bankruptcy far easier than anyone who might lose their homes and assets...

That's not to say he found it easy.. because back then he was then stripped of all his bank accounts and he could no longer have credit... Only high interest cards would have accepted him.. and only one bank was willing to allow a basic account to be opened by a Bankruptee...

he had to pay £500 to apply for bankruptcy in the first place... and then it was 7 years before it was wiped from his records.. and he could get back to normal and have Credit cars ad several bank accounts again.

.. the cost of Bankruptcy now, is around £6000 if you have assets...

Today people here are buying on the never, never ..using credit cards to the max knowing they can't pay them back,.. and knowing that now, once you have been made bankrupt you're freed from it after one year... ..altho' it stays on your records for 6... but banks and credit card companies are far more willing to lend to someone who has been made bankrupt while charging hihg interest rates today...
 
Colleen said:
People are living beyond their means.
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Amen. People are after that quick dopamine hit, and they seek it out through products and "stuff".

However, I do want to point out, it's not the only reason this is happening. The system we all live by is creaking under the weight of the 1%. We have "the working poor", people in full time jobs who have to live in tents or their cars. We have unaffordable housing. We have banks packaging up debts and selling them left and right for a quick buck. And apparently, no-one is accountable.

So I don't lay the entire blame on the people in debt. There's a huge change in retail now, for example. The world has spoken, and brick and mortar stores just don't work anymore. Property taxes are too high, footfall too low. High Streets and malls are effectively closing down. Officials talk about bringing jobs back to our countries, but we all know the kind of jobs they're talking about wouldn't pay enough to rent or buy a home.

The entire system is crushing us. And while overspending is an issue, the main reasons for personal bankruptcies remain Job loss, medical expenses, and escalating mortgage payments.
 
Yes, it is a national disgrace. The aforementioned deficit is for 3 months, which would near $2 Trillion for one year, compared to $1.7T for FY 2023. Over half of that will be interest on the national debt, which is rising rapidly.

It really boils down to when the party will be over. When it does, it will rapidly accelerate and given the massive international investment net deficit... this does not end well, imho.
 
The US defaulting on its debt could have devastating consequences for the global economy. If the US government failed to pay its creditors, it could result in a steep decline in the value of the US dollar, a stock market crash, rising interest rates, and a global financial crisis. This would affect everyone, from everyday citizens to businesses and governments around the world.
 
Harry Le Hermit said:
Yes, it is a national disgrace. The aforementioned deficit is for 3 months, which would near $2 Trillion for one year, compared to $1.7T for FY 2023. Over half of that will be interest on the national debt, which is rising rapidly.

It really boils down to when the party will be over. When it does, it will rapidly accelerate and given the massive international investment net deficit... this does not end well, imho.
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This doesn't help with the deficit. I don't know who FAIR is or what their position is relative to being liberal or conservative. I'm not about to challenge their figures. If someone else wants to then they should show the source.

The FAIR study, released in March last year, documented the financial toll of illegal immigration on the U.S., taking into account factors like emergency medical care, incarcerating illegal aliens in local jails, and federal budgets that pay out billions in welfare every year, pegging the net annual cost at $150.7 billion.

Arriving at the figure by subtracting the estimated $32 billion of tax contributions made by illegal immigrants, FAIR said the economic impact would have otherwise been $182 billion. In 2017, the U.S. spent roughly $116 billion on illegal immigration, suggesting that the problem is a growing one.

MSN

I think the difference in this report is the recognition that $32 billion is paid in. So often that amount isn't part of the calculations. That as a point to defend the influx of illegals as helping the U S economy just doesn't hold up when the negative $150.7 billion economic impact is shown.
 
I learned when I was in my 20s, not to carry balances on my credit card. The first one was issued to me, to my surprise because I didn't apply for it, by Chase bank when I was 23 years old. I think it's because my mother had opened up a rolling credit for me at a local dress store and I did well paying that off. I haven't paid credit card interest in 52 years. I don't care how much I (now we) charge, even if it's a couple of thousand dollars, I pay the balance in full. After I pay off the monthly balances, my son pays me back for his charges in a timely manner.

I can't even fathom the national debt and how they allot things. I've already mentioned in another thread about how angry I get when I see that they claim there's not enough to increase financial help to our citizens who are in a constant struggle to make ends meet. It takes a bunch of time and red tape when they finally do something more to help, but can send billions upon billions to other countries seemingly with the drop of a hat.
 
Knight said:
when the negative $150.7 billion economic impact is shown.
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Just remember that government spending is a factor in GDP. Calendar year 2023, real GDP (2017 $$) was up 3.1%, with government spending contributing 23.4% of that figure, whereas in normal times, government spending should be about 17%. Even the higher interest rates boost government spending, and by extension... the GDP.

FY 2023 nominal GDP +6.21%, with debt owed to the public at +8.36%.
Calendar year 2023 nominal GDP +5.48%, with debt to the public at +8.99%.

We are still a few years away from the unthinkable, but it will eventually get here, imho.
 
Harry Le Hermit said:
Just remember that government spending is a factor in GDP. Calendar year 2023, real GDP (2017 $$) was up 3.1%, with government spending contributing 23.4% of that figure, whereas in normal times, government spending should be about 17%. Even the higher interest rates boost government spending, and by extension... the GDP.

FY 2023 nominal GDP +6.21%, with debt owed to the public at +8.36%.
Calendar year 2023 nominal GDP +5.48%, with debt to the public at +8.99%.

We are still a few years away from the unthinkable, but it will eventually get here, imho.
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I agree. Living for now sounds good but looking ahead & doing the best as possible to be prepared for the eventual is IMO worth the discussion in this thread.
 
This is an important discussion as most of the world is having challenging times making ends meet. How we decide to spend our tax dollars influences how the money is distributed. I feel like our country is failing to provide adequate policies to even the playing field. The massive concentration of wealth by the few is incomprehensible., when the bottom 2/3rds of the citizens are struggling to make ends meet.

The big players in this arena seem to be investing in tech, and military related industries. The tech might pay off in the near future slightly, so all we have left is war, and we are getting ourselves deeper involved in that each day. Protests are not going to change this direction. We are going to have find representatives that have ideas that will involve themselves in human well-being rather human's being consumers.
 
Knight said:
This doesn't help with the deficit. I don't know who FAIR is or what their position is relative to being liberal or conservative. I'm not about to challenge their figures. If someone else wants to then they should show the source.

The FAIR study, released in March last year, documented the financial toll of illegal immigration on the U.S., taking into account factors like emergency medical care, incarcerating illegal aliens in local jails, and federal budgets that pay out billions in welfare every year, pegging the net annual cost at $150.7 billion.

Arriving at the figure by subtracting the estimated $32 billion of tax contributions made by illegal immigrants, FAIR said the economic impact would have otherwise been $182 billion. In 2017, the U.S. spent roughly $116 billion on illegal immigration, suggesting that the problem is a growing one.

MSN

I think the difference in this report is the recognition that $32 billion is paid in. So often that amount isn't part of the calculations. That as a point to defend the influx of illegals as helping the U S economy just doesn't hold up when the negative $150.7 billion economic impact is shown.
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My issue with this is the idea that $150bn would, ultimately, make much difference. It's the idea that not spending that money there would result in it being spent on something more worthwhile (or not be spent at all). My experience of this world tells me this is a fallacy, and has no basis in the real world. The US are about to discuss a bill giving another $17bn worth of military aid to Israel, for example. They've also had bombing campaigns in Syria and Iraq, and we all know where that's heading. Who is complaining about that adding to the debt?

In short, it's easy to point the finger at immigrants and blame them, but in reality, when you have 33 trillion in national debt, it's not a huge issue. Let's also not forget, while there is a peak of illegal immigrants right now, there has always been a percentage of them. Even in normal circumstances, 300,000 or so of them arrive. And hey, if we keep bombing other countries and destroying their infrastructure, we can expect even more of them. Some joined up thinking would be good, especially to the extent that the issues are being caused by the very nations complaining about them (and no, it's not just the US).

Our political leaders aren't honest with us, and yet still have massive support. You simply can't have it all. The last President raised the national debt by $7.5Tr. Think about that! Tax cuts sound good, but everyone takes their eye off the ball and fail to see the big picture. The tax cuts added almost $2tr to the deficit. Money the taxpayer has to pay back. Which leads me back to the thought that people are less interested in the debt than they are seeing their political goals met.

Having said all that, I can't envision a world where the US defaults on its debt. I think it's a political stick wielded every now and again to get some concession or gain. It'll never actually happen. Before the US defaulted, many other countries would do so first.
 
Knight said:
I agree. Living for now sounds good but looking ahead & doing the best as possible to be prepared for the eventual is IMO worth the discussion in this thread.
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That future is inevitable, and will come after I am gone. Should I worry about kids and grandkids? Sure, but any attempts at discussion with them, leaves the impression I am some sort of conspiracy nut and quickly becomes political. Any meaningful and serious discussion about national financial issues becomes largely a waste of time, imho. I stick with the weather, work, etc.
 
VaughanJB said:
My issue with this is the idea that $150bn would, ultimately, make much difference. It's the idea that not spending that money there would result in it being spent on something more worthwhile (or not be spent at all). My experience of this world tells me this is a fallacy, and has no basis in the real world. The US are about to discuss a bill giving another $17bn worth of military aid to Israel, for example. They've also had bombing campaigns in Syria and Iraq, and we all know where that's heading. Who is complaining about that adding to the debt?

In short, it's easy to point the finger at immigrants and blame them, but in reality, when you have 33 trillion in national debt, it's not a huge issue. Let's also not forget, while there is a peak of illegal immigrants right now, there has always been a percentage of them. Even in normal circumstances, 300,000 or so of them arrive. And hey, if we keep bombing other countries and destroying their infrastructure, we can expect even more of them. Some joined up thinking would be good, especially to the extent that the issues are being caused by the very nations complaining about them (and no, it's not just the US).

Our political leaders aren't honest with us, and yet still have massive support. You simply can't have it all. The last President raised the national debt by $7.5Tr. Think about that! Tax cuts sound good, but everyone takes their eye off the ball and fail to see the big picture. The tax cuts added almost $2tr to the deficit. Money the taxpayer has to pay back. Which leads me back to the thought that people are less interested in the debt than they are seeing their political goals met.

Having said all that, I can't envision a world where the US defaults on its debt. I think it's a political stick wielded every now and again to get some concession or gain. It'll never actually happen. Before the US defaulted, many other countries would do so first.
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Every single item you mention is a big problem and we are literally throwing our money away while people are dying on the streets, some having to choose between a roof over their heads, medicine or food. We bomb and destroy countries and then pay to rebuild them.

We have caused instability in countries that were stable because we didn’t like their leaders. We have caused many people to be refugees by our actions.

I don’t buy your argument that we might as well spend billions all around the world because we wouldn’t spend them on our own citizens anyway. Maybe one day US citizens will wake up and start mass protests about how our citizens are being treated. It’s sickening.
 

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