The Homeless

Irwin said:
I still believe that communes are the best solution for homeless people. Give them a decent place to live with meals and clothing, but they have to work for the benefit of the commune, and anyone who was destructive would get kicked out. It seems like that would be far better than living on the streets and eating garbage or at soup kitchens. I know it would be cheaper than what it costs to "manage" the homeless in big cities.
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In 2001, a woman in a large city near here opened her personal property, 4 acres of well-maintained lawns, to start a homeless commune. Tents required (dozens immediately donated by neighbors), sanitation and laundry services in place, meals available, and strict rules and a curfew prominently posted (no drugs, alcohol, weapons, misconduct, etc). Within 3 weeks, the woman was arrested, tents destroyed and 30 commune residents "relocated".

Same thing happened here in Sacramento 5 times over the past 8 years. Three of those 5 bought permits that allowed camping on their personal property beyond the civic code's 3 day limit.

Did I mention this was all on personal property? You can't help if you want to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.
 
Murrmurr said:
You can't help if you want to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.
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Yup

Best situation I've seen was a cobbled camp site in some state owned woods, about a half mile off the hwy
No real rules, but the rowdies got run out in a hurry
Those that hung on knew to bring in what they could
 

Murrmurr said:
In 2001, a woman in a large city near here opened her personal property, 4 acres of well-maintained lawns, to start a homeless commune. Tents required (dozens immediately donated by neighbors), sanitation and laundry services in place, meals available, and strict rules and a curfew prominently posted (no drugs, alcohol, weapons, misconduct, etc). Within 3 weeks, the woman was arrested, tents destroyed and 30 commune residents "relocated".

Same thing happened here in Sacramento 5 times over the past 8 years. Three of those 5 bought permits that allowed camping on their personal property beyond the civic code's 3 day limit.

Did I mention this was all on personal property? You can't help if you want to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.
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There are limits as to what you can do on your own property defined by zoning laws, among other things. I don't know what the details of that were, but she must have been violating some law.

Here's a story from two years ago about a successful commune down in Austin, Texas:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/us/iyw-town-for-the-homeless-trnd/index.html

If I was homeless and couldn't work, that's where I'd go.
 
Jeni said:
if you were thrilled to get out of cold have a bed and hot shower and things........ why would they punch holes in walls throw tv or microwaves out the windows...
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Because you had schizophrenia and believed the voices you heard were coming from those appliances or that the government was spying on you through them. Mental illness also accounts for the ones who "Don't want to be helped," meaning they wont go to the shelters or hospitals because they believe that's another form of government control or that they will be attacked and have their few possessions stolen ( that one is true in many cases.)

While we're talking of the various statistics we've seen -- I've seen it estimated that as many as 80% of homeless are mentally ill. In the 1970's and 80's, when the big psychiatric hospitals closed their doors and sent their patients out to be "cared for within the community," the towns didn't have the money or the specialists and that's when the homeless problem really got going.

We must take care of these people, whether they are Vets with PTSD or people who inherited a mental illness from their family genes, they are sick. We wouldn't expect people who had strokes or heart disease to take care of themselves. Many mentally ill people can function very well, just with medication, but the rest need to be in hospitals or their family homes. Other countries do much better than we are doing for their mentally ill. We either turn them out on the streets or send them to prison.
 
Della said:
Because you had schizophrenia and believed the voices you heard were coming from those appliances or that the government was spying on you through them. Mental illness also accounts for the ones who "Don't want to be helped," meaning they wont go to the shelters or hospitals because they believe that's another form of government control or that they will be attacked and have their few possessions stolen ( that one is true in many cases.)

While we're talking of the various statistics we've seen -- I've seen it estimated that as many as 80% of homeless are mentally ill. In the 1970's and 80's, when the big psychiatric hospitals closed their doors and sent their patients out to be "cared for within the community," the towns didn't have the money or the specialists and that's when the homeless problem really got going.

We must take care of these people, whether they are Vets with PTSD or people who inherited a mental illness from their family genes, they are sick. We wouldn't expect people who had strokes or heart disease to take care of themselves. Many mentally ill people can function very well, just with medication, but the rest need to be in hospitals or their family homes. Other countries do much better than we are doing for their mentally ill. We either turn them out on the streets or send them to prison.
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Look at the items around this subject the % change to match a point ........

yes, people are forced out as rents rise building sold etc .... yes some people are unemployed or more likely underemployed........
i believe there are many many reasons for those on the street ...... and not one way .................

I would agree to a large part with you reading about the estimated % with real mental health issues....

in my previous post, I was referring to those whom seem to think most are homeless through items beyond them.....like the example person in link that is just down on her luck not mentally or chemically unstable ....
when approached with a hand up ......they gladly accept .......................then turn and bite the hand that was willing to help.
 
I think the biggest problem with homelessness is the refusal to look the problem squarely in the eye.

Most homeless people are either mentally ill or have severe substance abuse problems. Or both. Fixing the problem doesn't mean making the streets nicer for them to sleep on, or handing out meals and blankets (don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with handing out meals and blankets, but it's a band-aid.)


"Advocates" for the homeless like to portray them as down on their luck, or as typical working folks just unable to afford expensive housing.

But...

According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration (SAMHSA) an estimated 64% of homeless people had drug use problems in the past month, 38% had alcohol use problems, and 39% had some form of mental health problems.

https://www.rehabspot.com/drugs/who-addiction-affects/homelessness/


Fixing this problem means spending money on supervised mental health facilities and serious drug and alcohol rehab programs. In some cases, it may mean providing purpose-built apartments for homeless people. This actually costs less than treating people for the multiple ER visits that accompany being homeless. It means changing NIMBY housing regulations to allow such housing to be built (repurposing old buildings can work).

There's nothing romantic about homelessness and taking care of the homeless doesn't mean letting them sleep on the streets. Sprawling homeless camps aren't a sign of compassion or successful municipal management, they are a sign of failure. The Mayor of LA should resign in disgrace. People have a right to navigate the streets of their own cities without worrying about needles, human feces or other problems that accompany homelessness.

There are certainly people who are homeless "through no fault of their own" but they shouldn't be encouraged (or allowed) to pitch tents. They should get the help they need to find jobs and/or housing.

This is a fiendishly complex problem and I know I'm oversimplifying. But I do know that looking at the problem through rose-colored glasses won't solve anything.
 
horseless carriage said:
For what it's worth mellowyellow, I am betwixed and between. Homelessness is to be deplored and help given to those in need. Whilst Father Julio Lancellotti's protest is admirable, the catholic dogma about contraception is, as far as this catholic boy is concerned, part of the problem. The official catholic teaching forbids any use of contraception, but it's left to the foot soldiers like Father Lancellotti to deal with the fall out of that dogma. So many catholics in this world are convinced that they will spend all eternity in the fires of hell if they should ever use some sort contraception and as a result, large families and homelessness will persist.
Enough said, I don't want my wrist slapped for turning a thread into a political argument.
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Most Catholics in the USA use birth control, and have smaller families.
 
Irwin said:
There are limits as to what you can do on your own property defined by zoning laws, among other things. I don't know what the details of that were, but she must have been violating some law.

Here's a story from two years ago about a successful commune down in Austin, Texas:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/us/iyw-town-for-the-homeless-trnd/index.html

If I was homeless and couldn't work, that's where I'd go.
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Yes, of course .. some civic codes at least, a state law possibly. Not a federal law, I'm sure. She didn't go to prison, she spent a few hours in jail and paid a hefty fine and the police trampled her flower gardens.

Why we are prohibited from helping our fellow man is beyond me.
 
Murrmurr said:
In 2001, a woman in a large city near here opened her personal property, 4 acres of well-maintained lawns, to start a homeless commune. Tents required (dozens immediately donated by neighbors), sanitation and laundry services in place, meals available, and strict rules and a curfew prominently posted (no drugs, alcohol, weapons, misconduct, etc). Within 3 weeks, the woman was arrested, tents destroyed and 30 commune residents "relocated".

Same thing happened here in Sacramento 5 times over the past 8 years. Three of those 5 bought permits that allowed camping on their personal property beyond the civic code's 3 day limit.

Did I mention this was all on personal property? You can't help if you want to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.
Click to expand...


If my next door neighbor did such a thing, I would certainly do all I could to have her arrested.
 
JimBob1952 said:
I think the biggest problem with homelessness is the refusal to look the problem squarely in the eye.

Most homeless people are either mentally ill or have severe substance abuse problems. Or both. Fixing the problem doesn't mean making the streets nicer for them to sleep on, or handing out meals and blankets (don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with handing out meals and blankets, but it's a band-aid.)


"Advocates" for the homeless like to portray them as down on their luck, or as typical working folks just unable to afford expensive housing.

But...

According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration (SAMHSA) an estimated 64% of homeless people had drug use problems in the past month, 38% had alcohol use problems, and 39% had some form of mental health problems.

https://www.rehabspot.com/drugs/who-addiction-affects/homelessness/


Fixing this problem means spending money on supervised mental health facilities and serious drug and alcohol rehab programs. In some cases, it may mean providing purpose-built apartments for homeless people. This actually costs less than treating people for the multiple ER visits that accompany being homeless. It means changing NIMBY housing regulations to allow such housing to be built (repurposing old buildings can work).

There's nothing romantic about homelessness and taking care of the homeless doesn't mean letting them sleep on the streets. Sprawling homeless camps aren't a sign of compassion or successful municipal management, they are a sign of failure. The Mayor of LA should resign in disgrace. People have a right to navigate the streets of their own cities without worrying about needles, human feces or other problems that accompany homelessness.

There are certainly people who are homeless "through no fault of their own" but they shouldn't be encouraged (or allowed) to pitch tents. They should get the help they need to find jobs and/or housing.

This is a fiendishly complex problem and I know I'm oversimplifying. But I do know that looking at the problem through rose-colored glasses won't solve anything.
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The state of Cali recently (a year or 2 ago) allocated funds to homing the homeless. The state refurbished an abandoned apt complex to the tune of $6million... for 52 apartments. Where'd all that money go? None of those apartments has gold fixtures and computerized amenities. They're not furnished and don't have even one swimming pool. They're very basic apartments, and only 52 of them in a city where hundreds of homeless families sleep outdoors.
 
JimBob1952 said:
If my next door neighbor did such a thing, I would certainly do all I could to have her arrested.
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In this particular woman's case, she met with all her neighbors before beginning this project. (This was in Roseville, Calif, btw, about 15-20 yrs ago I think) In fact, it was the neighbors who helped set the rules and the curfew (8pm, if I remember right) and who donated tents and blankets.

However, it's very likely one or more of her neighbors got spooked once the homeless people started taking up residence.
 
Murrmurr said:
The state of Cali recently (a year or 2 ago) allocated funds to homing the homeless. The state refurbished an abandoned apt complex to the tune of $6million... for 52 apartments. Where'd all that money go? None of those apartments has gold fixtures and computerized amenities. They're not furnished and don't have even one swimming pool. They're very basic apartments, and only 52 of them in a city where hundreds of homeless families sleep outdoors.
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I would bet the money went to layers of "experts" on homelessness. Consultants, advocates, heads of non-profit groups. If the homeless problem is ever solved, then these people have no jobs, and we wouldn't want that, would we?
 
Murrmurr said:
In this particular woman's case, she met with all her neighbors before beginning this project. (This was in Roseville, Calif, btw, about 15-20 yrs ago I think) In fact, it was the neighbors who helped set the rules and the curfew (8pm, if I remember right) and who donated tents and blankets.

However, it's very likely one or more of her neighbors got spooked once the homeless people started taking up residence.
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Well, 30 people could pitch tents on 4 acres of land without much difficulty. Getting people to live within posted rules isn't easy, though.

I have a lot of empathy for homeless people. I just want the problem addressed the right way.
 
JimBob1952 said:
I would bet the money went to layers of "experts" on homelessness. Consultants, advocates, heads of non-profit groups. If the homeless problem is ever solved, then these people have no jobs, and we wouldn't want that, would we?
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And the developers & construction co. The construction co is owned by one of our elected official's son-in-law. That elected official was not re-elected last term. So there's that.
 
JimBob1952 said:
Fixing this problem means spending money on supervised mental health facilities and serious drug and alcohol rehab programs. In some cases, it may mean providing purpose-built apartments for homeless people. This actually costs less than treating people for the multiple ER visits that accompany being homeless. It means changing NIMBY housing regulations to allow such housing to be built (repurposing old buildings can work)
Click to expand...

It is like most issues the 900lb gorilla in the room is the person is the biggest part of getting any help.......
rehab / AA / NA all good programs but just because a person attends does not mean they quit whatever substance ........ they have to want to and then stick with it......... many DUI folks are forced to attend programs but they sit there the hour or two once or twice a week get the person to sign their sheet and once over goes to a bar.
My neighbor has a grandson that comes by every so often she tells me he is on the street again...... he went to rehab across the state had some success and held a job etc.......
The moment he moved back and had been contacted by his old group ..........the 2 year programs paid by taxpayers was out the door and he lives in cars or the woods. Some folks need to make a hard choice............... to begin again / cut off all contacts with those whom are part of the issue and move on. Hang out with those making their way... not those who want you back on the street with them.
Murrmurr said:
The state of Cali recently (a year or 2 ago) allocated funds to homing the homeless. The state refurbished an abandoned apt complex to the tune of $6million... for 52 apartments. Where'd all that money go? None of those apartments has gold fixtures and computerized amenities. They're not furnished and don't have even one swimming pool. They're very basic apartments, and only 52 of them in a city where hundreds of homeless families sleep outdoors.
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it is big business doing anything with the government ..................many of these programs are so bloated and abused that it would be easier to just hand out money to the people on the street.
6 million divided by 52 apartments equals just over 115,000 even if you divide by 12 like they pay a year worth of rent that would be $9,615.38 a month ..... the math shows the problem.
 
JimBob1952 said:
Well, 30 people could pitch tents on 4 acres of land without much difficulty. Getting people to live within posted rules isn't easy, though.

I have a lot of empathy for homeless people. I just want the problem addressed the right way.
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I agree 100%

It so happened that there were zero problems with the residents at this encampment. All was going quite well. But I think the woman got busted within 6 months or something, not very long after she opened it up, so not much of a measuring stick.
 
Funny sidebar. I have a friend who is an expert in development and fundraising for non-profit groups. He told me there was an explosion in the number of such groups after the 2009 financial crisis. A lot of suddenly jobless executives figured they could set up a non-profit, solicit contributions and at least draw a salary.
 
Murrmurr said:
I agree 100%

It so happened that there were zero problems with the residents at this encampment. All was going quite well. But I think the woman got busted within 6 months or something, not very long after she opened it up, so not much of a measuring stick.
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I like your posts, you are a good example of what I call "menschkeit".
 
Jeni said:
It is like most issues the 900lb gorilla in the room is the person is the biggest part of getting any help.......
rehab / AA / NA all good programs but just because a person attends does not mean they quit whatever substance ........ they have to want to and then stick with it......... many DUI folks are forced to attend programs but they sit there the hour or two once or twice a week get the person to sign their sheet and once over goes to a bar.
My neighbor has a grandson that comes by every so often she tells me he is on the street again...... he went to rehab across the state had some success and held a job etc.......
The moment he moved back and had been contacted by his old group ..........the 2 year programs paid by taxpayers was out the door and he lives in cars or the woods. Some folks need to make a hard choice............... to begin again / cut off all contacts with those whom are part of the issue and move on. Hang out with those making their way... not those who want you back on the street with them.

it is big business doing anything with the government ..................many of these programs are so bloated and abused that it would be easier to just hand out money to the people on the street.
6 million divided by 52 apartments equals just over 115,000 even if you divide by 12 like they pay a year worth of rent that would be $9,615.38 a month ..... the math shows the problem.
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State and county funded rehab is all but useless. The "counselors" are not professionals with degrees in social psychology or anything close to it. Most are former addicts.

About 80% (nat'l average last I checked) of the people who are rehabilitated through state/county funded programs relapse within 6 weeks to 3 months. This is a complete waste of taxpayer's money.

But you cannot convince taxpayers to pay higher taxes for more efficient services and programs, and you cannot keep state and local official's hands out of the cookie jar.
 
Murrmurr said:
I agree 100%

It so happened that there were zero problems with the residents at this encampment. All was going quite well. But I think the woman got busted within 6 months or something, not very long after she opened it up, so not much of a measuring stick.
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I did a search for the homeless camp you've been describing and couldn't find anything, but I would guess that the homeless people -- many of whom were drug addicts, alcoholics, and people with serious psychological issues -- didn't just sit around the camp quietly singing Kumbaya all day. They were probably wandering around the neighborhood panhandling, perhaps going into people's yards, perhaps even scaring children at the local schools.

I'm all for helping the homeless, but the residents in that area have a right to live in peace and without fear.
 

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