The latest mass shooting

[win231]

Other than killing, what other purpose is a gun used? It is a killing machine. Period. It's asinine to allow guns into the hands of people, who should not be given the power of life/death. It also asinine to allow a fixation on weapons to out weigh the rights of all citizens to be free from gun violence.

I agree with you 100%. A gun's main purpose IS killing. If it wasn't, it would be useless for self defense & I wouldn't bother learning how to use one or owning one. What else can put an elderly person on par with a young thug who intends to hurt or kill them? And what else can enable anyone to defend themselves again an armed attacker? Why do you suppose police officers have such "Killing machines?"

When you need help, the first person you call is a police officer - a person who has a gun.....a "killing machine." I doubt you would say, "I need police here now, but I don't want any killing machines in my home, so don't bring your guns."

 

[Keesha]

There’s no shock there win. Your attitude isn’t much different than the attitude of every other American which is why I made my post in the first place. Somehow you have the ability to justify and rationalize why it’s not the gun laws or the legal guns that are the problem.


According to statistical facts, this isn’t the case. Countries that have stricter gun law have fewer gun related deaths. Even states within your own country that have stricter gun laws have fewer gun related deaths.


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.vox...399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts


You are absolutely right. Mentally unstable people, criminals and terrorists can get access to guns. You are also right in saying that even if something’s illegal, if someone wants it bad enough, they will get it one way or another. Absolutely. That’s just human nature but since we know and understand this why make it easy to access guns so they are readily available for when the killing mood strikes?
Why make these instant killing weapons as common as sliced bread?


What does the black market, alcohol and drugs have to do with this conversation?
Most every area in the world has a black market but if what you are seeking is legal why even resort to the black market? If owning a gun is as common and accepted as a morning cup of coffee then it shouldn’t be shocking that this is happening.


In conclusion, you are most certainly right, making something illegal doesn’t prevent someone from getting it BUT it does make it more difficult and slows them down a whole lot. In this fast paced world of instant convenience, some things shouldn’t be so and guns are one of them.


The second amendment should concern you.
If everyone has the same attitude as you and guns are as convenient and accepted as morning coffee, it’s no wonder that this is a bigger problem

Yes, there are mentally-unstable people who have access to guns. There are also criminals who have access to guns. There are (obviously) terrorists who have access to guns & explosives. And our own Tim McVeigh learned (in our military) how to make a bomb out of diesel fuel & fertilizer & he killed 185 people in less than one second - more than any firearm could ever do.

That's the reality (as you noted). Anyone who wants something they're not legally allowed to have, can get it illegally. A Black Market develops for anything that is illegal - like alcohol during prohibition & cocaine & meth today. Guns & drugs are sold on the street - NO waiting period, NO I.D., No registration & NO background check (like the ones I paid for & passed for every gun I own). Making something illegal doesn't prevent someone from getting it; it just means they can't walk into a store & get it legally (like I can). Gang members who do drive-by shootings can't legally own guns due to their criminal records. Does that prevent them from getting guns?
Drunk driving is illegal. That didn't save Princess Dianna or Ted Kennedy's 19-year-old mistress.

Personally, I'm not concerned with the Second Amendment. I'm concerned with my safety & the safety of my loved ones. The fact that what you say is true, is exactly why I own guns; I know that people who shouldn't have guns have access to guns & I choose not to be defenseless. I didn't create our screwed-up world, but I do have to live in it.

 

[Keesha]

Speaking of apologies, I’d like to apologize for stereotyping all Americans in my above post.
I understand that you don’t all feel this way. It was an oversight. My post doesn’t reflect the compassion I feel towards our neighbouring country.

 

[squatting dog]

Keesha... "Plus the second amendment was written back when muskets were used with gun powder. Even if a person decided they were going to shoot someone they had far more time to think it through. Gun power had to be packed etc."
Any time I hear a talking point used in a conversation, I tend to tune out the speaker. When the second amendment was written, a musket was the state of the art weapon. Using that thought, one would assume that it would be alright to own fully automatic weapons, tanks, bomber aircraft, etc.
I can still remember in history class, (wonder if they even teach that today) that we the people had just overthrown an oppressive govt. thus the 2nd amendment was there to protect We the People.
Any time I hear people wanting to eliminate the 2nd amendment, I'm reminded of this picture which is definitely worth a thousand words.

 

[Trade]

According to statistical facts, this isn’t the case. Countries that have stricter gun law have fewer gun related deaths.

I believe it has less to do with gun laws and more to do with politics and economics.

Here in the US we have dog eat dog, every man for himself, jungle capitalism that creates an immense amount of stress and an us vs. them mentality where large numbers of people are marginalized. It's a small wonder that we don't have more mental illness than we do.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/08/income-inequality-murder-homicide-rates

A 17-year-old boy shoots a 15-year-old stranger to death, apparently believing that the victim had given him a dirty look. A Chicago man stabs his stepfather in a fight over whether his entry into his parents’ house without knocking was disrespectful. A San Francisco UPS employee guns down three of his co-workers, then turns his weapon on himself, seemingly as a response to minor slights.

These killings may seem unrelated – but they are only a few recent examples of the kind of crime that demonstrates a surprising link between homicide and inequality.

While on the surface, the disputes that triggered these deaths seem trivial – each involved apparently small disagreements and a sense of being seen as inferior and unworthy of respect – research suggests that inequality raises the stakes of fights for status among men.
The connection is so strong that, according to the World Bank, a simple measure of inequality predicts about half of the variance in murder rates between American states and between countries around the world. When inequality is high and strips large numbers of men of the usual markers of status – like a good job and the ability to support a family – matters of respect and disrespect loom disproportionately.

Inequality predicts homicide rates “better than any other variable”, says Martin Daly, professor emeritus of psychology and neuroscience at McMaster University in Ontario and author of Killing the Competition: Economic Inequality and Homicide.

This includes factors like rates of gun ownership (which also rise when inequality does) and cultural traits like placing more emphasis on “honor” (this, too, turns out to be linked with inequality). “About 60 [academic] papers show that a very common result of greater inequality is more violence, usually measured by homicide rates,” says Richard Wilkinson, author of The Spirit Level and co-founder of the Equality Trust.

According to the FBI, just over half of murders in which the precipitating circumstances were known were set off by what is called the “other argument” – not a robbery, a love triangle, drugs, domestic violence or money, but simply the sense that someone had been dissed.

 

[Aunt Bea]

I have. But in this case, reportedly nobody who worked with him saw anything amiss or saw any conflicts or problems. He had just resigned from the job "for personal reasons," but there was no indication of hard feelings.

I just do not understand why, when people snap nowdays they decide to kill. In the "olden days" you just went out and got really drunk and maybe got in a barfight or something.

I can even sort of understand (but not condone, of course) somebody getting so angry at a particular person that they wanted to kill that person -- but everybody in sight? I just don't get it.

Is it the increasing isolation and loss of feelings of community that some of us feel, or the lack of traditional support systems like extended family to talk someone off the ledge, or loss of socioeconomic safety nets? Or sitting on the internet reading stuff that inflames hatred or anger or feelings of desperation?

IMO this has a lot to do with it.

I think that we need to continue looking for the triggers to this type of behavior, tighten the gun laws where appropriate and teach people how best to protect themselves in these situations.

I also think that we need to stop sensationalizing this type of crime. I read a statistic recently that said 40,000 people died from gun violence last year and that 250,000 died from medical mistakes while seeking treatment.

We are a big country with many big problems that need our attention and gun violence is only one of those very serious and tragic problems with no single solution.

 

[treeguy64]

Aunt Bea wrote: "I think that we need to continue looking for the triggers to this type of behavior ........"

Perhaps a poor choice of words? (or pun intended?)

 

[911]

I have watched people on YouTube with extended clips. One fellow even put together a 600 round clip, which us completely ridiculous. However, can you imagine a psycho with a 200 round clip in a large mall at Christmas?

If that should ever happen, they would need a moving van to carry the bodies to the morgue. My point here is that what always worried me when facing a shooter was, “What his the shooter’s weapon and what type of arsenal is the shooter possessing?” The shooter isn’t about to send you a note advising you of his arsenal. This is something that you will learn as time passes.

Fully automatic weapons and semi automatics with extended clips are the worse of the worse. And, when you add in other types of arsenal that a fellow like McVeigh used, Oh Boy! Let the body count begin.

 

[WhatInThe]

prior behavior issues

The killer apparently was showing signs of behavioral issues and had an altercation with a city employee last week.

https://nypost.com/2019/06/02/dewayne-craddock-had-been-getting-violent-with-co-workers-before-virginia-beach-shooting-report/

 

[rgp]

There’s no shock there win. Your attitude isn’t much different than the attitude of every other American which is why I made my post in the first place. Somehow you have the ability to justify and rationalize why it’s not the gun laws or the legal guns that are the problem.


According to statistical facts, this isn’t the case. Countries that have stricter gun law have fewer gun related deaths. Even states within your own country that have stricter gun laws have fewer gun related deaths.


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.vox...399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts


You are absolutely right. Mentally unstable people, criminals and terrorists can get access to guns. You are also right in saying that even if something’s illegal, if someone wants it bad enough, they will get it one way or another. Absolutely. That’s just human nature but since we know and understand this why make it easy to access guns so they are readily available for when the killing mood strikes?
Why make these instant killing weapons as common as sliced bread?


What does the black market, alcohol and drugs have to do with this conversation?
Most every area in the world has a black market but if what you are seeking is legal why even resort to the black market? If owning a gun is as common and accepted as a morning cup of coffee then it shouldn’t be shocking that this is happening.


In conclusion, you are most certainly right, making something illegal doesn’t prevent someone from getting it BUT it does make it more difficult and slows them down a whole lot. In this fast paced world of instant convenience, some things shouldn’t be so and guns are one of them.


The second amendment should concern you.
If everyone has the same attitude as you and guns are as convenient and accepted as morning coffee, it’s no wonder that this is a bigger problem

"According to statistical facts, this isn’t the case. Countries that have stricter gun law have fewer gun related deaths. Even states within your own country that have stricter gun laws have fewer gun related deaths."

Sorry!...Illinois /Chicago have some of the most restrictive guns law in the nation. And yet they have one of the highest gun-death rates as well. Matter of fact I believe Chicago is known as the deadliest city.

https://www.axios.com/chicago-gun-violence-murder-rate-statistics-4addeeec-d8d8-4ce7-a26b-81d428c14836.html

 

[rgp]

Do not know why that link, did not post , as a link?

 

[rgp]

The 75th anniversary of the D-day/Normandy landing is coming up this Thursday........Using the logic of some here....I guess our guys & our allies should have stormed those beaches without weapons???

Perhaps some nice words would have gotten the job done?

IMO it doesn't matter if it is thousands of whacko's with guns........or just one.......they should be approached in the same manner.

Nor does it matter if it is an enemy on the battlefield , or a criminal in your church or in ones own home.

I hate to be cliche but....don't forget....when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

 

[win231]

The killer apparently was showing signs of behavioral issues and had an altercation with a city employee last week.

https://nypost.com/2019/06/02/dewayne-craddock-had-been-getting-violent-with-co-workers-before-virginia-beach-shooting-report/

Whenever a workplace shooting happens, managers & employees (under threat of being fired) are instructed NOT to give any information to the media about how the employee was treated or what his motivation may have been. That's probably because they don't want people blaming THEM for the tragedy. I noted that after the post office shooting in Oklahoma. Media reports said "He just flipped," which was complete B.S. A couple of co-workers said he was tormented relentlessly - ridiculed about his appearance (overweight, bald) & his work was constantly sabotaged by other employees - rearranging mail in his mail bag so he couldn't get his work done, then being reprimanded. Managers & supervisors participated in this. His victims ONLY included his tormentors - he told others to just leave (like this employee recently).

Please use common sense. A normal 15-year employee who never committed a crime does not wake up one morning & say, "I think I'll kill a bunch of people today for no reason."

I have worked in a couple of places like that & have successfully sued one employer who was forced to learn an expensive lesson. I remember very well the anger & stress it caused. When you torment someone, you run the risk of not knowing how they'll react or when they will snap....everyone has a breaking point. Treating people with decency & respect goes a long way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_post_office_shooting

 

[Camper6]

Imho, the Second Amendment has been misinterpreted by the Supreme Court in Washington DC v. Heller, thanks to the NRA and Antonin Scalia. Unless and until the Constitution is amended to offset this travesty, mass shootings will continue unabated.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/john-paul-stevens-court-failed-gun-control/587272/

The Second Amendment and the rights are more important than human lives.
Same old story.
We have to do something about this.
Next year rolls around same thing.
I'm on a political forum and it's brutal.

 

[rgp]

"Please use common sense. A normal 15-year employee who never committed a crime does not wake up one morning & say, "I think I'll kill a bunch of people today for no reason."


Well that has actually been known to happen....rare but it has. I do agree that many other factors may push someone over the top. But some folks do just go nuts.

No violence but.....years back we had a guy that just drove off the job.....ran out of gas & was found by the police in that area . He had no idea why? At first did not know where he was , and again no idea why he was there. The police confirmed his [out-of-it] behavior / demeanor.
He received psychiatric treatment......no reason was ever explained , his psychiatric health was deemed normal?

 

[WhatInThe]

Whenever a workplace shooting happens, managers & employees (under threat of being fired) are instructed NOT to give any information to the media about how the employee was treated or what his motivation may have been. That's probably because they don't want people blaming THEM for the tragedy. I noted that after the post office shooting in Oklahoma. Media reports said "He just flipped," which was complete B.S. A couple of co-workers said he was tormented relentlessly - ridiculed about his appearance (overweight, bald) & his work was constantly sabotaged by other employees - rearranging mail in his mail bag so he couldn't get his work done, then being reprimanded. Managers & supervisors participated in this. His victims ONLY included his tormentors - he told others to just leave (like this employee recently).

Please use common sense. A normal 15-year employee who never committed a crime does not wake up one morning & say, "I think I'll kill a bunch of people today for no reason."

I have worked in a couple of places like that & have successfully sued one employer who was forced to learn an expensive lesson. I remember very well the anger & stress it caused. When you torment someone, you run the risk of not knowing how they'll react or when they will snap....everyone has a breaking point. Treating people with decency & respect goes a long way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_post_office_shooting

Oh I wouldn't doubt there are workplace issues. But other websites said he had some manifesto like ramblings on social media. Now maybe he went to social media as a vent for his anger.

I've seen management-employee confrontations happen daily and after one both should've been fired. I've also had temper tantrum throwing bosses when calm didn't seem to give two hoots why they screamed or turned 50 shades of red. Screamers frequently don't document which many employees like/tolerate. And others constantly trying to spy on, test and/or micro management others. Union or not a lot don't believe in reporting pos employees or management. Also I've seen new management and policy upset many an employee. Clock punchers hate it when their routine is messed up even if it's ignoring official company practice and procedure.

I've heard reports he knew he was going to be fired or suspended. Or perhaps they didn't believe his side of the story involving one of those altercations or confrontations.

 

[win231]

"Please use common sense. A normal 15-year employee who never committed a crime does not wake up one morning & say, "I think I'll kill a bunch of people today for no reason."


Well that has actually been known to happen....rare but it has. I do agree that many other factors may push someone over the top. But some folks do just go nuts.

No violence but.....years back we had a guy that just drove off the job.....ran out of gas & was found by the police in that area . He had no idea why? At first did not know where he was , and again no idea why he was there. The police confirmed his [out-of-it] behavior / demeanor.
He received psychiatric treatment......no reason was ever explained , his psychiatric health was deemed normal?

Quite different (as you noted). Anyone can be "out of it"...minor stroke, brain not working right, etc. I doubt that would cause mass murder.

 

[win231]

So, what do we do? Just throw in the towel and allow the U.S. to continue as the only (supposedly) civilized country in the world where anybody can legally buy a semi-automatic weapon, for any reason, or without any reason at all except that he's nuts. and go into a crowded place and start shooting randomly?

It's never "too late" to put an end to this ridiculous death hold the NRA has on this country. It is too late to bring back all the innocent souls who have died, but at least we can prevent more of these mass shootings. Or at least, cut out some of them.

The NRA cannot win this; too much is at stake.

You are misinformed when you say "anybody can legally buy a semiautomatic weapon." You are mistakenly using the term "Legally."
Some facts:
To buy a gun legally (in my state of CA), you walk into a gun store, present a valid I.D. pass a written gun-safety test, obtain a "Firearms Certificate," fill out forms, & wait 10 days before the store will release the gun to you. During those 10 days, a detailed background check from the Dept. of Justice & Police Dept. is performed. If there are convictions for any felonies, or misdemeanor domestic violence incidents, the gun is not released. And, if the purchaser has a restraining order pending, it is also not released. And it is a crime for any convicted felon or prohibited person to even walk into a gun store or be in possession of any firearm or even a single bullet.

Now, you may have a clear understanding of why more gun restrictions don't work. Someone with a criminal record knows he can't legally buy a gun; that's why he buys them illegally on the street - where restrictions & laws don't matter....the same way illegal drugs are purchased. It's got nothing to do with the NRA.

 

[johndoe]

People have been killing each other since the dawn of time. Cain killed Able. David killed Goliath. Lets ban sling shots.The gun genie in the US has been out a long time and can't be put back in the bottle and shouldn't be. Self protection is a must

The core trigger of gun killing in my mind is stress. Some people handle it better than others. The US population has more than doubled in the US in my lifetime. Interstates were just highways back in the day. Now they are a mess leading to road rage.

I saw a documentary on PBS where they did an experiment to see what effect overcrowding had on rats. They put a half dozen pairs of rats in an enclosure and let them just do their ratty thing. They had offspring. Their offspring had offspring, and on it went. Overcrowding took over. There was fighting, murder and sexual deviancy among them now.

Another contributor to our stressful society is the news media. Every day the sky is falling.

Social media also makes us way TOO connected. We can't get away from each other. We snipe at each other anonymously. There is a reason politics is not allowed here.

The solution? Probably none. Just try to keep away from it.

 

[rgp]

"Another contributor to our stressful society is the news media. Every day the sky is falling. "

Wow, do I ever agree with that one !

"The solution? Probably none. Just try to keep away from it."

Might be a-bit "head-in-sand" but ? I'm guilty of it as well.

 

[Camper6]

"According to statistical facts, this isn’t the case. Countries that have stricter gun law have fewer gun related deaths. Even states within your own country that have stricter gun laws have fewer gun related deaths."

Sorry!...Illinois /Chicago have some of the most restrictive guns law in the nation. And yet they have one of the highest gun-death rates as well. Matter of fact I believe Chicago is known as the deadliest city.

https://www.axios.com/chicago-gun-violence-murder-rate-statistics-4addeeec-d8d8-4ce7-a26b-81d428c14836.html

Chicago is a city no a country or a state.

 

[win231]

Has anyone ever worked with a person they felt "uneasy" about? I did many decdes ago. I always worried he was going to explode at any second.

To avoid being there when an employee goes ballistic, I have quit jobs after a couple of weeks when I observed a lack of respect & belittling of employees - usually from "supervisors" & managers. I have heard co-workers say, "One day I'm going to blow his fool head off." And, after seeing how a supervisor treated him, I believe it. Many companies don't care who they make a supervisor. Been there.

 

[rgp]

Chicago is a city no a country or a state.

Well aware of that, my reply was in regard to inhabited areas , governed by law.

And......since we're noting mistakes & or nuances of wording....it's "not" a country or state.....[not] no a country or state.

 

[Camper6]

The 75th anniversary of the D-day/Normandy landing is coming up this Thursday........Using the logic of some here....I guess our guys & our allies should have stormed those beaches without weapons???

Perhaps some nice words would have gotten the job done?

You are talking about wartime? Of course you use weapons. But in peacetime?



IMO it doesn't matter if it is thousands of whacko's with guns........or just one.......they should be approached in the same manner.

Nor does it matter if it is an enemy on the battlefield , or a criminal in your church or in ones own home.

Of course it matters in wartime you can kill without getting prosecuted for murder. It's different in peacetime.

I hate to be cliche but....don't forget....when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

Where have I heard that one before. Guns will never be outlawed. It's part of the culture in the United States.

I'll give you another one that is always repeated after a mass murder.

"We have to do something about this". :sleeping:

 

[treeguy64]

People have been killing each other since the dawn of time. Cain killed Able. David killed Goliath. Lets ban sling shots.The gun genie in the US has been out a long time and can't be put back in the bottle and shouldn't be. Self protection is a must

The core trigger of gun killing in my mind is stress. Some people handle it better than others. The US population has more than doubled in the US in my lifetime. Interstates were just highways back in the day. Now they are a mess leading to road rage.

I saw a documentary on PBS where they did an experiment to see what effect overcrowding had on rats. They put a half dozen pairs of rats in an enclosure and let them just do their ratty thing. They had offspring. Their offspring had offspring, and on it went. Overcrowding took over. There was fighting, murder and sexual deviancy among them now.

Another contributor to our stressful society is the news media. Every day the sky is falling.

Social media also makes us way TOO connected. We can't get away from each other. We snipe at each other anonymously. There is a reason politics is not allowed here.

The solution? Probably none. Just try to keep away from it.

Would be nice if everyone actually read the posts in a given thread before posting their own.