The Myth of Canadian Innocence.

Debby

Well-known Member
I'm posting this link for the sake of any of the American folks on this forum and primarily so that you don't think that I'm solely picking on Americans.
It deals with the myth of 'Canadian global innocence' that my country has wrapped itself in since long before my time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/dr-lisa-tomlinson/canada-violence_b_6050702.html

From the link:

"...Canada has always done a great job in concealing its wrong-doings against humanity and has successfully hidden behind the coattail of its American and British imperial overlords. Many of her atrocities committed in history and in current times have literally gone unnoticed by the wider global community or censored and white-washed by the Canadian media...."

Just as I've said about American media, our media has done it's own version of coverup that has benefited our government in a multitude of ways through the decades. It's NOT just the American government, it's all governments or almost all governments that have ulterior motives for their actions that have no justification and no basis in concern for the individual and particularly the individuals in the countries that we manipulate.
 

Hi Debbie.
I see you are getting as much attention talking about Canada's sins as I did when talking about Australia's imperfections :lol:

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/9468-What-we-focus-on-tends-to-predict-our-behaviour

Never mind, we two can have a discussion on the theme "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" as it applies to nations.

If this is to be a debate, do you want to be the Affirmative or the Opposition regarding my proposed topic?

However, from now on, people cannot really complain about us butting in and voicing the occasional adverse observations about our great and powerful friend, and in your case, neighbour.
I know, I'm a very:badgirl: but I just can't help myself some days.
 
Maybe we see no point in harping on the negatives constantly? Besides, I suspect joining in will just being on more negatives.. What exactly are you both looking for? For us to agree with you? Or tell you .. It's ok.... We are worse? I think we feel that no matter how we respond it will be wrong..
 

I think Australia, Canada, UK and the United States all have negatives that are covered up by the politicians and the main stream media. Recently there's been school student and teacher "strikes" here objecting to AP history taught in schools. They want to only teach the positive things about America in our history books, and sweep all the bad things under the rug. The strikes are by those who want the truth taught, good or bad, which is the way it should be.
 
No, the point I was making in a roundabout way is that there is very little interest in anything outside the US unless it directly affects the US. Understandable on a mostly US forum. However, that should not preclude outsiders passing comments on US matters when they are raised.

I'm feeling a bit like I have to be a paid up member of the club to have a voice on some issues.

I'll get over it.

On the question of what am I looking for, I guess some recognition that the myth of American exceptionalism is just that, a myth. We're all a lot more alike than different, with similar virtues and faults as people and as nations. It's just that some nations are a lot bigger and a lot more powerful that others, and that is a fact that the big nations don't always fully appreciate.
 
Now, I'm taking the affirmative and pointing to something on TV over here last night.
The Australian government and the majority of Australians have an irrational fear and loathing of what are termed "boat people".
The current government won power by continually braying three word slogans, one of which was "Stop the boats".

It, and the previous government, which on all other issues I tended to support, have behaved heartlessly towards asylum seekers and decided that some could be returned to their homelands because they were now "safe". This included Hazaras from Afghanistan and Tamils fro Sri Lanka.

The TV program told the story of one Hazara man returned to Kabul. He had fled the Taliban but intelligence suggested that they were no longer in his home province. The trouble was that he was not returned to his home province but to Kabul and left to travel a long way to get to safety - through Taliban controlled territory.

He was picked up, found with an Australian driver's licence and tortured. So much for safety.

If he hadn't managed to escape we would never have known what happened to this man, a genuine refugee, who we couldn't find room for in this country.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...-failed-asylum-seekers-to-afghanistan/5845544
Video: Returned Hazara held hostage by Taliban (Lateline)

Not only are we heartless, we are also mercenary. We charge these poor sods for deporting them.

Man could suffer persecution from Taliban

The 20-year-old man, who is due to be deported today, arrived in Australia in May 2012 and claims to be from the same district as Mr Naseri.

In April 2013 the Refugee Review Tribunal found there was a real chance the applicant could suffer persecution at the hands of the Taliban if he return to his home district, but not if he stayed in Kabul, where he has an uncle.

The tribunal rejected the man's claim that before fleeing to Australia he was working as a truck driver and was attacked several times by the Taliban.

The ABC has seen a copy of the deportation letter, which stated that the man will be returned to Kabul on October 28.
The letter stated the man must pay $25,000 to the Australian Government to cover the cost of his deportation.

We can't do much to change history but we can change what we are doing wrong in this present time. We need to know about it though. There is a reason to focus on certain negatives.
 
Wow, I don't know much about these issues, but that did seem to be really coldhearted by the Australian government not only to deport these people, but to also fine them? Seems like this fella had a little taste of heaven in his stay in Sydney.
 
On the question of what am I looking for, I guess some recognition that the myth of American exceptionalism is just that, a myth. We're all a lot more alike than different, with similar virtues and faults as people and as nations. It's just that some nations are a lot bigger and a lot more powerful that others, and that is a fact that the big nations don't always fully appreciate.

See this is exactly what I thought this was about.. Just a backdoor way of getting some sort of admission out of Americans, that we aren't as great as we always though we are. I don't quite understand why that is so important to you? It almost seems like an obscession. I'm not interested in that.. This isn't a game of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" only to have it pointed out that mine... or rather ours... is worse. Because I know that's where it would be headed.

I think Americans are so very weary of being the brunt of everyones joke and distaste that we would rather not get into any debates over other countries flaws.. it's not that we are not interested.. we are just wary of it. Maybe I'm wrong.. and I don't want to speak for everyone.. but that's my take.
 
What sticks in my craw the most is that our PM and his Min for Immigration are both practising Christians - one RC and the other evangelical. The former seems to be oblivious to catholic social justice teaching and the latter ignores the prophets' call to a life of justice, mercy and compassion. Both have replaces love in their hearts with love of power.

Of course they are not alone in this. Many of their co-politicians on both sides of the dispatch boxes are equally blinded by ambition.
 
The US is trying to do something similar, but not doing well at is right now. We are trying to stop these daily groups that come over our southern borders without permission. There are proper ways for hardship acceptance into the US which can and should be used. Many sneak in and the try to hide somewhere in the US. They do jobs without government permission and take whatever they can get for wages. False ID's to make things look legal. Use the school system for their children, created and born here or imported over the border by sneaking in or by having them come on a bus. Once in, no way do they want to leave. The US has offered these folks to step out of the shadows and be known but they often refuse as they know that for certain reasons they can be deported, many are. They also take advantage of our hospitals systems emergency rooms for medical care. These folks are a big cost to the US as they are. If properly brought into the US system they would be less costly and when they do work the US would be able to take taxes from their wages to help pay for their costs.

The US does not want to deny wishes from folks around the world to live here and we help them all if they apply and try to be honest about it. Those that just try to sneak in are the ones that cause us so much concern. Many get lost in the desert and die. Many are criminals and we don't need them nor do the others coming in with them as they often get involved in activities they would likely not want to do without the criminal forcing them to do so.

We do deport many of those identified and then find them back in the US. One currently was deported twice but now is being held for a murder. Our border problem is still out of control.
 
Again QuickSilver, I must protest. I am proving a point but not really what you think.

Americans value freedom of speech and so do I but I get the feeling sometimes that, while debate ranges freely on this forum, it is not acceptable for a foreigner to enter the debate in any critical way. The cry "America bashing" rings out and I feel that I have to apologise or at least make appeasement. Or hold back. My original point in posting was to test whether any Americans are interested in issues that relate to my country, which they weren't. Only Debbie replied although dozens viewed. ( https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/9468-What-we-focus-on-tends-to-predict-our-behaviour )

Then Debbie, also no doubt feeling that her critical voice was illegitimate because she is Canadian, posted along similar lines and I waited to see who responded. Only me as it happens (until your post) and I saw the same general reluctance to discuss a Canadian issue. Not even the Brits showed any interest.

Where does that leave us if we want to talk about serious issues ? It leaves us talking about American issues if we want to belong to the forum in any meaningful way. There's a fine line we must tread because diplomacy and good manners are better than abrasive or inflammatory posts but if all that is wanted from us, from me in particular, is flattery then I have to say that that is not my style.

We live in a global world yet have still so much to learn from people outside our own borders. We learn when we hear all the voices, especially those who don't agree with ourselves.

Perhaps I should retreat to Speakers Corner for awhile where all views, politely expressed, are acceptable.
 
Warrigal, I never post any political stuff in Australian forums as that is when folks get really upset and start name calling and trash talk. I try to avoid that if possible so never comment on government styles and lifestyles I know little about. For some from other countries that does not seem to be a measure for them a they do become somewhat annoying when they say 'why doesn't your congress do as our parliament does. Comments like that really irritate me as the answer to a question like that is 'because our countries are different and made to operate differently'. If the people of this country or another want changes, then it is up to them to change their countries ways, not me, and just the same for them, my country for me and not them.

This does show some reason for the separation of debate from certain topics.
 
I dunno Bobf. I remember that you and I had quite a few lengthy exchanges in another place. Each of us argued away from opposite directions, never really convincing the other to change opinions, but I did learn from you. It wasn't a waste of time IMO.

Thanks for contributing on this occasion
 

See this is exactly what I thought this was about.. Just a backdoor way of getting some sort of admission out of Americans, that we aren't as great as we always though we are.

I think Americans are so very weary of being the brunt of everyones joke and distaste that we would rather not get into any debates over other countries flaws.. it's not that we are not interested.. we are just wary of it. Maybe I'm wrong.. and I don't want to speak for everyone.. but that's my take.

I've never been very political or much of a news buff, but I have to say that although I love America, born and raised in the USA and wouldn't want to live anywhere else in this world, my modest knowledge of American politics have dampened my views of America over the years. I don't like hearing all those jokes, but some of them I can understand.

From learning some things in alternative media, that is glossed over and covered up on the main stream local news reports, I'm aware of a lot of political corruption behind the scenes, and that has soured my thoughts on America. Not the country or the people in general, but the powers that be, including government, corporate interests, etc.

Then Debbie, also no doubt feeling that her critical voice was illegitimate because she is Canadian, posted along similar lines and I waited to see who responded. Only me as it happens (until your post) and I saw the same general reluctance to discuss a Canadian issue. Not even the Brits showed any interest.

We live in a global world yet have still so much to learn from people outside our own borders. We learn when we hear all the voices, especially those who don't agree with ourselves.

I responded too, but perhaps invisible as I didn't have too much to say. I agreed with Debby that all countries, including the US have negative things that are either covered up by their politicians, or white-washed in the news reports to make things sound more righteous than they really are. I don't know much about other countries, so I don't get involved in some of these discussions, but that doesn't mean I don't read them to learn from what others are saying.

I try to avoid that if possible so never comment on government styles and lifestyles I know little about. For some from other countries that does not seem to be a measure for them a they do become somewhat annoying when they say 'why doesn't your congress do as our parliament does. Comments like that really irritate me as the answer to a question like that is 'because our countries are different and made to operate differently'. If the people of this country or another want changes, then it is up to them to change their countries ways, not me, and just the same for them, my country for me and not them.

This does show some reason for the separation of debate from certain topics.

You make some good point Bob. I don't like to see any rude comments made about any country, I've seen some putting down the UK for example, that was uncalled for. I think we should all respect where other members are from, and should be able to discuss the pros and cons of any country without the childish mine is better than yours arguments.

Aside from all of the issues and problems facing America, that have been present for many years now, I love it here and I imagine others feel the same about their countries too. Take the good with the bad, and try to make changes when you can.
 
Take the good with the bad, and try to make changes when you can

Yes, but I'd modify this slightly to read "Take the good, and try to make changes when you can to the bad things that can be made better."
That's what I try to do where I can but no-one person can be effective without rallying others to the cause. That's what consciousness raising is all about.

The cause I'm most passionate about is the children, all of them innocent of any crime, that my country confines behind razor wire. I hate that my country is capable of such callous cruelty to children. I've been speaking out on this issue for roughly fifteen years, writing letters to politicians and debunking lies told on forums about asylum seekers, including stories about how they are better treated than our own pensioners.

I'll keep doing it until it is no longer necessary, however it is fairly pointless to keep banging on about it on this forum because it is no an American issue.
 
Sorry about this, but the floodgates have been opened.

Tonight's news report - background first.

Our government refuses asylum seekers access to the mainland and sends them either to Manus Island (PNG) for single males or Nauru for families, women and unaccompanied minor children. They have a deal where some may live outside the detention camp in the community but they are far from safe.

Unaccompanied child refugees on Nauru report beatings, death threats

Four unaccompanied boys living in the community on Nauru end up in hospital after assault on Sunday leaves one unconscious
Ben Doherty
theguardian.com,
Tuesday 28 October 2014

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A child refugee recovers in hospital after a group he was walking with were attacked on Nauru. Photograph: Supplied

Four child refugees released to live in the community in Nauru say they were physically assaulted on Sunday night, and threatened with death if they stayed on the island. The boys – aged between 15 and 17 and without parents on Nauru – have told Guardian Australia they were stopped by a group of Nauruan men on motorbikes as they walked home in the evening.
“They said ‘who are you?’. We said ‘we are UAM [unaccompanied minor] refugees’,” one of the boys said. “They started swearing, they said ‘all mother-****er refugees, we will kill you, this is our country and no one can protect you, not even Save the Children or immigration’.

“Then they started hitting us by punching, kicking, and they [kept] threatening [us] and swearing.”

One of the boys was left unconscious during the attack.
Two of the boys escaped to a nearby beach where they hid behind a rock and used a mobile phone to call Save the Children staff, who act as carers for the child refugees without parents.

Nauru police were alerted, and Save the Children workers were able to find all four boys, who were taken to hospital.
One boy, who had been struck repeatedly on the neck and head, was held overnight for observation.
The other boys suffered bruises, scratches and one, a bite mark.

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Injuries to an unaccompanied child refugee on Nauru. Photograph: Supplied

Attacks on refugees on Nauru have escalated in recent weeks. Young men and teenage boys are allegedly particular targets.
Also on Sunday night, sources told Guardian Australia a 15-year-old boy was attacked inside a refugee camp by a group of men, who punched him and repeatedly hit him with a stick.

Twenty-nine child refugees without parents were released from detention at the start of this month to live in the community in Nauru. They were released because of daily protests in the Australian government-run camps, and escalating rates of self-harm among children. The children released are recognised by the Australian government as refugees. They cannot be returned to their homeland because they face persecution.

When they were removed from Australia the immigration minister, Scott Morrison, transferred guardianship of the children to the Nauruan minister for justice. Most of the children are housed in a single large home near Yaren, the largest town on Nauru.
The children’s location is known to the Nauruan community, and some child refugees have reported being accosted and attacked inside their house. Others have stopped going to school for fear of being attacked while they walk.

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The teenagers say they have been told not to fight back if Nauruans attack them. Photograph: Supplied

“We are feeling unsafe, the people … are trying to harm us, specially UAMs,” one of the boys told Guardian Australia. “No one can protect us from these local people, they are very dangerous and they threaten to kill us. We [are] all afraid of them. Save The Children and immigration are not able to protect [us], even they are confessing that.”

He said they had been warned by senior members of the Nauruan community not to fight back. “They will not kill you, just hit you. And don’t try to resistance [sic], the local people are like a family.”

Save the Children told Guardian Australia that Nauru, a small, remote island with a small population and limited resources, was not a suitable place for refugee children, particularly those without family, to live.

“Save the Children is appalled by any instance of assault on refugee children in Nauru,” a spokeswoman said. "Unaccompanied child refugees are some of the most vulnerable – far from home, family and friends, many already witness to horrors no child should go through. These children deserve every protection that can be offered.”

ChilOut founder Dianne Hiles said some of the boys had been in detention 14 months, and had witnessed acts of self-harm by other refugees and asylum seekers. They were being further traumatised by the attacks on them.

“No child should live like this,” she said. “The boys have been stripped of hope and dignity as a result of this government’s policies, and now they have been denied the fundamental right to education as a result of near-continuous verbal and physical harassment when they leave the house.”

Nauru police have been contacted for comment, as has Morrison’s office.
 
You Commonwealth types need to come to grips with your place in the order of thing. We rule, you follow, even if we lead you down some questionable paths...
 
Aside from all of the issues and problems facing America, that have been present for many years now, I love it here and I imagine others feel the same about their countries too. Take the good with the bad, and try to make changes when you can.

My feelings too. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I realize we have our warts.. but I love my country and I do what I can to vote for folks I feel best.. That's about all individual citizens of any country can do. We can work collectively to effect change, but an individual on his/her own is powerless. That's what honks me off so much about the perceived American bashing.. What the heck to you want ME to do about these things.. Just be a sounding board for your criticism? I'm not a very compliant sounding board... that I admit.. freely. As for discussing the faults of others? Why bother? What can THEY do about it? Not any more than I can. So pointing out everyones flaws accomplishes exactly what? It soon turns into a "Yeah? Well, so's your mother!!!" exchange.. And just get's my back up. So I don't bother.
 
I dunno Bobf. I remember that you and I had quite a few lengthy exchanges in another place. Each of us argued away from opposite directions, never really convincing the other to change opinions, but I did learn from you. It wasn't a waste of time IMO.

Thanks for contributing on this occasion

Warrigal, I did not debate folks about the US. What I have often done is defend the US from lots of nasty remarks by others. I did little to tell others that they should change their governments as that is not my desire. I still think that way about things. Tell me the US should change their government and the way we live and I defend the US. One common argument often started by Australians is about our gun laws. There is no need for the US to attempt to follow Australia into restricted gun laws as that only takes things away from the honest and good people, not the criminals that don't care about laws. That is the kind of stuff I will post about for the benefit of the US. In the case of the gun laws, it is not some law applied to the people at all. It is something right in our Constitution and that means it can not be changed until our Constitution is changed. Not a trivial effort to do.
 
Maybe we see no point in harping on the negatives constantly? Besides, I suspect joining in will just being on more negatives.. What exactly are you both looking for? For us to agree with you? Or tell you .. It's ok.... We are worse? I think we feel that no matter how we respond it will be wrong..


The point is to demonstrate that no nation or government is 100% good and that the propensity to ignore ones own 'sins' does nothing for fostering a good, healthy debate nor does it encourage peace in the world. So I'm not hiding and I gather that Dame Warrigal chooses not to hide either. It's only when the dirty laundry gets aired that positive change is forthcoming.

We all have something to lose and maybe by discussing what the possibilities/probabilities might be if our governments pursue certain agendas that our voting efforts are actually informed by truth instead of the propaganda that all governments seem to feed the people these days in order to further negative agenda's, my own government included.

And for those who prefer to vote out of ignorance or even simply live in ignorance, well maybe one day they too will begin to understand when bad things happen....because they happened to read somewhere......?.......
 


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