The Myth of Canadian Innocence.

I'm steering clear of this fight. I've been in far too many on another forum I'm a member of (majority US members but members from around the world) which has every topic there could be. A lot of bashing and comparing US to other countries, etc. and I've been drawn into it. I've been avoiding those topics lately and will probably just quit that forum. So I don't really want to get heavily into politics, etc on here.

I do have an interest in the US (being American), the UK and Europe, and Australia as some of my favourite inlaws live there. Also an interest in Africa in general since I lived there as well.

Continue on without me. :p
 

Debby said:
The point is to demonstrate that no nation or government is 100% good and that the propensity to ignore ones own 'sins' does nothing for fostering a good, healthy debate nor does it encourage peace in the world. So I'm not hiding and I gather that Dame Warrigal chooses not to hide either. It's only when the dirty laundry gets aired that positive change is forthcoming.

We all have something to lose and maybe by discussing what the possibilities/probabilities might be if our governments pursue certain agendas that our voting efforts are actually informed by truth instead of the propaganda that all governments seem to feed the people these days in order to further negative agenda's, my own government included.

And for those who prefer to vote out of ignorance or even simply live in ignorance, well maybe one day they too will begin to understand when bad things happen....because they happened to read somewhere......?.......
Click to expand...

I believe that most Americans are well aware of the faults and flaws of America. I know I am.. So I do what I can to vote in people I believe can help. I'm not sure if you were referring to me... however, I certainly do NOT vote out of ignorance.. why would you say that? I am very well informed and know exactly what is going on in our government.. Perhaps YOU believe differently.. but that is only your opinion. and you know what they say about opinions...

The fact that I don't want to debate it with YOU? Is that the problem you and DM have? Why should I? Why discuss it? It's not going to change anything.. Not here and not in Canada.. It's just going to cause problems.
 
Ameriscot said:
I'm steering clear of this fight. I've been in far too many on another forum I'm a member of (majority US members but members from around the world) which has every topic there could be. A lot of bashing and comparing US to other countries, etc. and I've been drawn into it. I've been avoiding those topics lately and will probably just quit that forum. So I don't really want to get heavily into politics, etc on here.

I do have an interest in the US (being American), the UK and Europe, and Australia as some of my favourite inlaws live there. Also an interest in Africa in general since I lived there as well.

Continue on without me. :p
Click to expand...

This is what I am trying to explain to Debby and DW.. I'm simply tired of it and explaining why. Yet I guess that makes us fair game again.. SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW?

If I am going to get into a political debate, I'm more inclined to debate another American, particularly a Right Winger.. I completely and totally disagree with just about everything they have to say, but I know that they love America.. despite their misguided etiology. lol!!
 

SeaBreeze said:
I think Australia, Canada, UK and the United States all have negatives that are covered up by the politicians and the main stream media. Recently there's been school student and teacher "strikes" here objecting to AP history taught in schools. They want to only teach the positive things about America in our history books, and sweep all the bad things under the rug. The strikes are by those who want the truth taught, good or bad, which is the way it should be.
Click to expand...


Too true SeaBreeze. I was reading yesterday that Canada's politicians were front and centre when Jean Claude Aristede of Haiti was removed from power by a coalition of Canada, the US and France. I had never heard that - it was kept secret at the time. What wasn't secret (in Canada) was that at the same time the party that did it was found to have 'given' $100 million dollars to PR firms in Quebec seemingly for no reason. The Liberals actually got punished by the Canadian voter and lost their seat as the government and yet the article I read seemed to suggest that the money was handed over to those firms to work at PR that made the coup in Haiti seem like it was a good thing, when in fact Aristede was extremely popular and from what I read on Wikipedia, was a man with a real heart for the people. But of course, the outgoing government never mentioned that nor did the incoming (if they knew) because it would have a terrible admission of ulterior motives and guilt and let's face it, Canada has had a 'historic reputation as a peace-keeper nation' so it wouldn't have sat very well if the government had said to the people, well, 'we lied to you and we just finished eliminating a democratically elected government leader'.

So yes, I agree SeaBreeze that we need to know the truth in every action and we need to teach all the kids the truth instead of the half-baked misinformation and sometimes outright lies that we're fed now.
 
Debby said:
Too true SeaBreeze. I was reading yesterday that Canada's politicians were front and centre when Jean Claude Aristede of Haiti was removed from power by a coalition of Canada, the US and France. I had never heard that - it was kept secret at the time. What wasn't secret (in Canada) was that at the same time the party that did it was found to have 'given' $100 million dollars to PR firms in Quebec seemingly for no reason. The Liberals actually got punished by the Canadian voter and lost their seat as the government and yet the article I read seemed to suggest that the money was handed over to those firms to work at PR that made the coup in Haiti seem like it was a good thing, when in fact Aristede was extremely popular and from what I read on Wikipedia, was a man with a real heart for the people. But of course, the outgoing government never mentioned that nor did the incoming (if they knew) because it would have a terrible admission of ulterior motives and guilt and let's face it, Canada has had a 'historic reputation as a peace-keeper nation' so it wouldn't have sat very well if the government had said to the people, well, 'we lied to you and we just finished eliminating a democratically elected government leader'.

So yes, I agree SeaBreeze that we need to know the truth in every action and we need to teach all the kids the truth instead of the half-baked misinformation and sometimes outright lies that we're fed now.
Click to expand...

I do agree with this. There are things about the US I'm just finding out now in my 60's and I think we should have been taught the truth in school.
 
Ameriscot said:
I do agree with this. There are things about the US I'm just finding out now in my 60's and I think we should have been taught the truth in school.
Click to expand...


I second that. I believe the truth should be taught in schools. There is a big push now alter school curriculum to fit in with political ideology.. that's wrong. Teach the facts.. and stop with the agendas.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Sorry about this, but the floodgates have been opened.

Tonight's news report - background first.

Our government refuses asylum seekers access to the mainland and sends them either to Manus Island (PNG) for single males or Nauru for families, women and unaccompanied minor children. They have a deal where some may live outside the detention camp in the community but they are far from safe.
Click to expand...


That's really awful! Poor kids to have to go through this kind of abuse! What's the matter with people?
 
QuickSilver said:


My feelings too. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I realize we have our warts.. but I love my country and I do what I can to vote for folks I feel best.. That's about all individual citizens of any country can do. We can work collectively to effect change, but an individual on his/her own is powerless. That's what honks me off so much about the perceived American bashing.. What the heck to you want ME to do about these things.. Just be a sounding board for your criticism? I'm not a very compliant sounding board... that I admit.. freely. As for discussing the faults of others? Why bother? What can THEY do about it? Not any more than I can. So pointing out everyones flaws accomplishes exactly what? It soon turns into a "Yeah? Well, so's your mother!!!" exchange.. And just get's my back up. So I don't bother.
Click to expand...


Most folks in the West wouldn't want to live anywhere else and you probably don't need any polls to prove that. I guess what's important is that people are willing to listen, hear and acknowledge 'the warts' if they aren't aware at that point.

Taking the attitude that every discussion must turn into a 'yeah, so's your mother' is counter productive. That's grade school but it's time to be adults who see the issues, acknowledge them, discuss them and vote based on that. Unfortunately, you're right, it does seem to develop into a p***ing match too often which is not what I for one am looking for. And considering that most discussions these days are probably being monitored and recorded, perhaps a change in the 'atmosphere' of acceptance by the public will become noticed by the governments and taken into consideration as they plan the next time they're intending to screw us. We can hope can't we?

And you know, the thing you should also remember, that as much as you know about politics and what governments are doing, there are tons of people who don't have the slightest clue. My mother for one, who listens to news on tv constantly, both American and Canadian, and as far as she is concerned, what she hears is gospel. So when we discuss it here, there are bound to be lurkers who won't contribute, but they are reading and possibly becoming informed. Thats a valid reason for open forum discussions.
 
Just heard on the radio that it has come out that one of our SAS officers in Afghanistan cut off the right hands of four dead Afghanis. He was allowed to take fingerprints for identification purposes but I think I've heard earlier he didn't have the right equipment to he just collected the hands. Not sure whether he did all four at the same time. The mutilation of our dead happens too and we don't like it either. People never forget such things and the fruits are hatred and retribution.


When we wonder why western nations (is that non specific enough?) are hated by the people who we think should be appreciating everything we do for them it is the small but symbolic events that we need to consider. Mutilating the dead is anathema to most Muslims and foreigners doing it is very inflammatory. So is a small town preacher who publically burns a copy of the Quran on the evening news.

Some things have to be done but there is a lot that is totally unnecessary and counter productive to achieving a peaceful outcome.

Edit - Here is the account. US operations were affected by this incident. Three hands not four.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...-after-taliban-fighters-hands-cut-off/5849090
 
The enemy has to be demonized for the troops to want to butcher them. I recall some of the propaganda posters of the past, such as one with ugly "nips" raping and bayoneting babies (which some did)...
 
It seems like the Geneva Convention is ignored regularly as I've noticed in another situation that it's been ignored for over fifty years by a certain signatory.
What's the point of signing agreements if military disregards them at will? In this case it said specifically:

Article 15 of the Geneva convention states: "At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled."

I think the second comment in Dame Warrigal's link is very apt:
"People seem to be missing the real story here: the ADF investigation into the source of the leaked information has closed with no result. One of the main pillars of a Free Democracy is an INFORMED public. Recent legislations to punish whistleblowers and muzzle the press are doing more to destroy Australian democracry than al Qaeda or ISIL ever could. (the best traitors of course are moles inside, eh George?)."

I think the same could be said of other countries in the West. Within hours of Corporal Cirillo dying, my own government gives more power to our own spy agency which means we've lost a little more of our privacy. One can only wonder, what's going to disappear next?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top