The Nation Waits (Grand Jury Decision-Ferguson, Mo.)

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Grumpy Ol' Man said:
Even if the Grand Jury were to indict, that does not mean the officer is guilty of what is contained in that indictment. It only means there was evidence enough to send it to trial. If the indictment does come down, the resulting jury trial will garner just as much demonstrating and angst as we've seen already.

Every American does have the right to peaceful protest. We do NOT have the right to loot, steal, torch, and assault. So, why all the "noise"??

Was the officer justified in shooting the young man? If the young man was attempting to wrest the officer's firearm from him... yes. Was the officer justified in putting seven slugs into the young man? That might be debatable. Once the perp is disabled, there is no reason to continue firing.

Were the citizens of the community justified in looting and stealing from local businesses as a result of the incident? Postively NOT!!

Was the local police force somewhat at fault when they arrived in armored military vehicles with assault rifles pointed at the crowd? IMHO, extremley poor judgement on behalf of the local police and that poor judgement led to some of the demonstrations turning into riots.

Plenty of issues in this case. Lots of outsiders encouraging the citizens to rise up against the police and the justice system. That 'cheerleading' does not assist in the making of good decisions. Media is in the middle of this thing and keeping it top/center in the news cycle. That also doesn't help. The more publicity, the more some of the agitators will be encouraged. Would be nice if cool heads prevailed. I don't know that there are cool heads on either side of this issue.
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I agree with your statement, and it is well said imo. And this isn't about you GOM, but the thought came to me on how people of the US gripe when the CDC doesn't "move fast enough", and we gripe when FEMA didn't show up fast enough. Now we have someone show up at the first signs of trouble, and we gripe. I'm confused.
 

Something is terribly wrong here. The nation is all aflutter because a cop kills a perpetrator in one small town?!

This probably happens every week or so somewhere in the USA and life goes on. Race should have nothing to do with it.

A cop is trying to maintain order, a smart aleck tries to disobey the order and gets into a scuffle with the policeman and gets
shot. That's why the police are armed...TO MAINTAIN ORDER ! and that's what the cop was doing.

And the whole country gets bent out of shape over this? We have more serious things with which to be concerned, like
terrorists, global warming, water supply dwindling, nuclear attack, starving people worldwide et al.

I think we grow old and die at the right time because we can't stand living with all the changes going on.
 
It's not only the government spreading lies, it's the people of this country, as well as people from other countries. Hate and discontent, if I believed in satan I'd say he is having a great time, and has lots of help from us humans.
 

rkunsaw said:
President Obama, Eric Holder, and Al Sharpton are all doing their best to incite riots, not only in Ferguson, but around the country.
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That statement is just false, I have heard nothing of these people inciting riots. If anything, they have asked that any and all protests remain peaceful, and that includes Michael Brown's father. People who only listen to the rhetoric from Fox news and other right-wing sources, are soon to believe and be convinced of everything that is said in their little bubble. We're wise to listen to all sides of every story from various sources.

drifter said:
I might agree that one or all of these three could encourage riots in the black community, if that were their purpose, but it seems to me to be an established fact that police departments all across the U.S. are committing legal genocide against the black community. Police officers always shoot to kill, otherwise, they could be liable for huge medical costs and law suits for damages. The dead don't file lawsuits, and they don't require hospitalization. It's legal because it doesn't violate departmental policy. I don't know if this policy was developed as a national policy or if it just developed over time due to lack of any punishment to police officers who kill and sometime murder black victims, but it has arisen to the state of genocide in America.
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I agree. Regardless of the Grand Jury results, hopefully it will create some investigations regarding how the police are abusing their authority in some cases, and hopefully decrease any senseless homicides in the future. Cameras on the cop's uniforms would be a step in the right direction, if they were justified in their actions, then it would be clear.

nwlady said:
I take it to mean that any time someone of a different race is in trouble, or gets shot, then it's "obviously" because caucasions hate other races, which is not true.
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It is not true that all whites hate other races, I certainly don't...but many do. You don't have to look to far into historical or news archives to see that fact. I'm white, and it is very clear to me. I'd hoped things would change by 2014, but unfortunately they haven't. The injustice to the black race is quite significant in history, and it is ongoing...just do a bit of researching.

drifter said:
I agree with you, Grumpy, but if I was a black man, I couldn't. I would see in my mind all the injustices heaped upon me and my race and all the the attempts made by white America to keep us in our place, to keep us from voting, from getting an education. I would look at our prisons and see the inequity in sentencing but most of all I would see that black men have a greater than seventy-five percent chance of being shot and killed. And I would know the white man can in his mind and in the policies he puts forth, justify all this and think it is good. Maybe I would think any retaliation I could vent is also okay. Just saying. But I'm a white guy and I don't see things as the black man views them. But I'm curious and I am waiting along with the nation as it waits and my eyes will be attuned to my television.
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Agree, that is a big part of the problem today. The situation and feelings behind it are very involved to be sure. We could just hope for more peaceful protests, as rioting never helps a cause.

Regardless of the ruling that will likely come out late Sunday, or early next week, the life that was senselessly lost will not be brought back. None of us know the true facts of this incident yet, so we can just speculate. I know that the citizens of the community in Ferguson want the best and most peaceful outcome, so they can go on with their lives as usual, without fear of the police or rioters.
 
nwlady said:
I agree with your statement, and it is well said imo. And this isn't about you GOM, but the thought came to me on how people of the US gripe when the CDC doesn't "move fast enough", and we gripe when FEMA didn't show up fast enough. Now we have someone show up at the first signs of trouble, and we gripe. I'm confused.
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Great point. You are correct, we have become an impatient society. Some of the impatience is warranted. Some is political propaganda. Some is the news media... or politically biased pundits... trying to motivate the masses so they can sell more advertising time. I do believe whatever force the Ferguson police arrived with, there still would have been some rioting from those taking advantage of the situation. I do wonder if things might have been quelled much sooner had we seen the police in more of a "traffic control" mode than looking as if they were the military declaring martial law. Any of that is mere conjecture, which is wrong for me to do!! We are where we are. We cannot go back. We can try to learn from yesterday's events. We cannot replay them. So, we must find the best way for the citizens to put this issue to rest and move forward positively.
 
Grumpy Ol' Man said:
Great point. You are correct, we have become an impatient society. Some of the impatience is warranted. Some is political propaganda. Some is the news media... or politically biased pundits... trying to motivate the masses so they can sell more advertising time. I do believe whatever force the Ferguson police arrived with, there still would have been some rioting from those taking advantage of the situation. I do wonder if things might have been quelled much sooner had we seen the police in more of a "traffic control" mode than looking as if they were the military declaring martial law. Any of that is mere conjecture, which is wrong for me to do!! We are where we are. We cannot go back. We can try to learn from yesterday's events. We cannot replay them. So, we must find the best way for the citizens to put this issue to rest and move forward positively.
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I respect a humble person, and it is refreshing to meet one, online or off;) I would agree with that "traffic control" look over the look of martial law. It's hard to know what is going to happen, and our law enforcement, well, I don't envy them. I see them bad-mouthed, but then I know who people call if they are frightened or being attacked.

I don't know, it's all a heartache, and sometimes I just have to turn away from the discussions about it. I surely appreciated your words though:) Denise
 
I'm certainly NOT agreeing with violent protests... HOWEVER... jus perhaps these people have a reason to protest.. ??

race_us_prison.jpg


KilledByPolice_circumstances_v3.0.png
 
rkunsaw said:
Do you suppose maybe the proportion of any group in prison is in proportion to the number of crimes committed by that group rather than the percentage of the population.
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So are you saying that Blacks and Hispanics are more unlawful and more violent than Whites? Perhaps Whites are just better?
 
Let's use Drug offenses as an example

drug_use_by_race.png



The majority of prisoners are in for drug offenses

figure1.jpg

WI_Incarceration_rates_by_race_0.jpg



So let's see.... Whites and Blacks use drugs at pretty much the same rate.. Yet most prisoners in for drug offenses are Black.. Again I ask.. Perhaps Blacks have reason to protest?
 
Now for violent crime arrests..

ff_race_violent_crime_arrests.png


So if more WHITES are arrested for violent crimes than Blacks... BUT the Prison population is More Black than white... what is that telling us?? Is our justice system rigged to favor Whites?? Are Blacks more likely to be convicted than Whites??? Do Blacks have a pretty good reason to protest??
 
Raw statistics can be "manipulated" to support any given position. Per your chart above, concerning Violent Arrests....it leaves out one Very Important fact....that being that Whites comprise 72% of the US population, whereas Blacks are less than 13%. This chart would tend to indicate that Blacks are at least 3 times more likely to be arrested for Violent crimes.

White on Black crime always seems to garner the attention of our news media...and becomes sensationalized. However, Black on White crime hardly warrants more than a 10 second mention on the local TV news....because it is so common.
 
Let's stay on the thread topic, and not change this thread into another race bashing thread that needs to be closed. We all know that there is more crime in high poverty areas. We all know that there are good and bad people of all races, let's not start to paint one race with a broad brush. It's insulting to all the good citizens white or black. I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with members of the KKK or other skin-head groups that hate all except their own.

Regardless of the crime statistics, that does not give cops free reign to take lives without just cause. Hopefully the Grand Jury will make a fair decision on the evidence presented them. And hopefully, the result is not violence and rioting.
 
Don M. said:
Raw statistics can be "manipulated" to support any given position. Per your chart above, concerning Violent Arrests....it leaves out one Very Important fact....that being that Whites comprise 72% of the US population, whereas Blacks are less than 13%. This chart would tend to indicate that Blacks are at least 3 times more likely to be arrested for Violent crimes.

White on Black crime always seems to garner the attention of our news media...and becomes sensationalized. However, Black on White crime hardly warrants more than a 10 second mention on the local TV news....because it is so common.
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So Blacks commit 38% of the violent crimes yet comprise 65% of the prison population and you have no problem with that? You don't see why there is outrage and protest?

Sorry, I was posting while your were... delete if you think necessary
 
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This is another Thread that I'd like to hear from 911 on! He is a retired State Trooper and, because I have worked with (not for) law enforcement before in emergency medicine, I would pretty much go by what he says.

One thing to remember, the Ferguson police force is made up of primarily white officers and the Chief says that is because they have a very difficult time recruiting Blacks to be officers. Back in the mid-late 70's, when I worked in the areas of Compton, Watts and South Central (L.A,) and my partner was a Black dude (great EMT also), the P.D.'s there were made up of both Black and White officers and they all got along fine. So, why don't more Blacks want to work for the Ferguson P.D.?
 
To me, what Falcon is saying is 100% true........especially what he says about the job of law enforcement.


Falcon said:
Something is terribly wrong here. The nation is all aflutter because a cop kills a perpetrator in one small town?!

This probably happens every week or so somewhere in the USA and life goes on. Race should have nothing to do with it.

A cop is trying to maintain order, a smart aleck tries to disobey the order and gets into a scuffle with the policeman and gets
shot. That's why the police are armed...TO MAINTAIN ORDER ! and that's what the cop was doing.

And the whole country gets bent out of shape over this? We have more serious things with which to be concerned, like
terrorists, global warming, water supply dwindling, nuclear attack, starving people worldwide et al.

I think we grow old and die at the right time because we can't stand living with all the changes going on.
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ClassicRockr said:
This is another Thread that I'd like to hear from 911 on! He is a retired State Trooper and, because I have worked with (not for) law enforcement before in emergency medicine, I would pretty much go by what he says.

One thing to remember, the Ferguson police force is made up of primarily white officers and the Chief says that is because they have a very difficult time recruiting Blacks to be officers. Back in the mid-late 70's, when I worked in the areas of Compton, Watts and South Central (L.A,) and my partner was a Black dude (great EMT also), the P.D.'s there were made up of both Black and White officers and they all got along fine. So, why don't more Blacks want to work for the Ferguson P.D.?
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There are positively great officers who serve, but I have to remind, whole police precincts have been taken down for committing crimes, just because someone has worn the uniform, doesn't make them unbiased. I too have worked with and am still friendly with people in law enforcement, I've seen the gamut of behaviours from the best of the best to the worst of the worst. I measure the words with a very fine grain of salt. But I too would be open to hear the opinion. :)

And as far as the numbers of those in prison, lets not forget the numbers don't address all the white collar and people of means that pay their way out of being sentence for their crimes. This in no way excuses the crimes committed by those serving time, I have no sympathy for thugs who commit crimes of any kind, but, people seem to excuse other crimes against humanity as long as the crimes have the word white as in white collar is in front of it or the offense was dismissed for lack of evidence ie was swept under the rug by money being passed through hands.

I absolutely don't condone nor excuse the actions of what's happening in the destructive behaviors that are taking place in Fergerson, at the same time, I won't stand by and listen to people try to paint all with the same brush, people should be judged by their individual behaviors.

I for one grew up among very productive groups of all kinds of human beings from various backgrounds just as I've also in one or two down on my luck occasions had the misfortune to experience living in communities of locations that were populated predominantly with either one or the other of white black and other or a mixture of all, with questionable things going on where I wouldn't want to be after dark. But the majority of my life, I've lived in suburban environments with the makeup being of people of one predominant group or the other of fully productive clean living people all wanting the same things out of life for self and their families as any decent human being would. I've been exposed to all kinds of people, not just one class of people that I base all my opinions and make a singular judgement that if this is how I see this limited number of people behave in this location that I interact with, this is how they must all be.

That shows great ignorance when you lump all your opinions on something based on limited knowledge. But some people revel in their ignorance which this thread continues to show by so a few people who make statements they never even attempt to substantiate when someone ask them to elaborate on. Not only that, some go on to show you just how immature they are by future actions they take toward you outside of a discussion. Sad really. :surprise:
 
QuickSilver said:
So are you saying that Blacks and Hispanics are more unlawful and more violent than Whites? Perhaps Whites are just better?
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Looking at the rioting and looting that goes on in black communities whenever they can find something to use as an excuse the answer would obviously be yes.
Not to paint all blacks with one brush, but the same doesn't happen in other communities. Instigators like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Eric Holder, and yes, President Obama make the problem much worse.
 
rkunsaw said:
Looking at the rioting and looting that goes on in black communities whenever they can find something to use as an excuse the answer would obviously be yes.
Not to paint all blacks with one brush, but the same doesn't happen in other communities. Instigators like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Eric Holder, and yes, President Obama make the problem much worse.
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Race bashing ? I think Seabreeze asked for that to stop.
 
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