The tragedy of Aleppo

[Warrigal]

I am at a loss for words on this subject.

While we have all been very vocal on the subject of President Elect Trump (at least I have been) it seems that no-one can bring themselves to raise the issue of Aleppo and Syria. It all seems too hard and too far away.

This morning I chanced upon a cartoon strip that rebuked for my silence.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2016/12/15/glen-le-lievre-36/

I feel like weeping.

 

[ossian]

I am kinda like you on this one. It disturbs me each time I see images of the tragedy of Aleppo on my TV. It is clear that military intervention will not help here, but what will......... I have no idea!

 

[aeron]

The attempt to take control of Syria by Islamic forces using terrorism is the basis of what has happened. The West stood back or at most paid lip service to action and presented the terrorists as freedom fighters which they were not. They were attempting to replace a strict but fair government with an Islamic inhuman regime.

It would have happened too except thankfully Russia stepped in to support Assad and the terrorists were pushed back and hopefully will be totally crushed leaving Syria to return to what it was before being attacked by terrorists in their attempt to over through yet another non sectarian government.

Allepo was populated by terrorists and their families. Despite the overwhelming propaganda the vast majority of residents of Allepo were fighters and the use of their families by such "people" is a well, known and much practiced tactic, look only at Gaza to see a blatant example.

If Assad and the legitimate Syrian government had been supported in their fight against these forces of evil from day one the war in Syria would have been over long long since and although not resolved for all time this genie would have at least have been put back in its bottle.

 

[ossian]

Of course! Aggression to match aggression. That is always the answer, isn't it? After all, it worked in Iraq and is a real success elsewhere in the world! Good grief, will we never learn?

 

[aeron]

When facing an enemy to whom concession amounts to surrender there are only two options. This time that enemy has been driven back.

 

[Ray]

We are seeing the results of our nation turning it's foreign policy in the region over to the Russians. It all started with that infamous "red line in the sand".

 

[Ray]

Of course! Aggression to match aggression. That is always the answer, isn't it? After all, it worked in Iraq and is a real success elsewhere in the world! Good grief, will we never learn?

It's ugly but meeting aggression with surrender is certainly not the answer either. Good grief, will the pacifists never learn?

 

[Warrigal]

I heard President Obama address this issue at his last press conference for the year.

I think all of the arm chair generals should listen to his explanation of why the US did not commit to the Syrian conflict and basically it was because to do so would have meant being prepared to take control of the whole country and that would not be in the US national interest given that there are still two other wars unfinished - Iraq and Afghanistan.

Australia was not prepared to commit to Syria either because there is a government there, corrupt as it is, that is considered by the UN to be legitimate. Unless invited to participate we would have been acting illegally under international law. No doubt Assad formally invited Russian support and Putin jumped at the chance.

 

[Knight]

We are seeing the results of our nation turning it's foreign policy in the region over to the Russians. It all started with that infamous "red line in the sand".

That red line in the sand that went unanswered at the time has turned into a massive amount of red blood in the sand. Doing nothing has been the hallmark of Obama's foreign policy. The M E and all the problems Trump will inherit will make it easy for republicans to do as democrats did when they blamed Bush for the mess Obama inherited. Trump has a lot on his plate to work on. All anyone has to do is look at the campaign promises of Hillary & Bernie to see that as a fact.

 

[aeron]

Obama did not intervene because he WANTED to see Assad overthrown. In fact the US and it's poodles should have kept out of the affairs of the whole region because unsavoury as they were the leaders of the middle eastern countries kept the lid on what is a state of constant conflict.

Maybe the decisions that Obama has made has more than a little to do with his middle name, and maybe the latest observations made by Sherrif Joe is much closer to the truth than Democrats want to believe.

 

[Warrigal]

I would like to see Assad overthrown. The man is a total bastard but he is the legitimate government and you cannot just go into a foreign country for the purpose of regime change.

If I remember correctly it was ISIS that the US (and Australia) was going after in Iraq and Syria, using air strikes. That action was legitimate because ISIS was a threat to both our countries. Assad was not. These are the realities of international law.

 

[Jackie22]

I heard President Obama address this issue at his last press conference for the year.

I think all of the arm chair generals should listen to his explanation of why the US did not commit to the Syrian conflict and basically it was because to do so would have meant being prepared to take control of the whole country and that would not be in the US national interest given that there are still two other wars unfinished - Iraq and Afghanistan.

Australia was not prepared to commit to Syria either because there is a government there, corrupt as it is, that is considered by the UN to be legitimate. Unless invited to participate we would have been acting illegally under international law. No doubt Assad formally invited Russian support and Putin jumped at the chance.

Yes, and it makes perfect sense...too bad making sense will be out the window come next year.

 

[aeron]

I would like to see Assad overthrown. The man is a total bastard but he is the legitimate government and you cannot just go into a foreign country for the purpose of regime change.

If I remember correctly it was ISIS that the US (and Australia) was going after in Iraq and Syria, using air strikes. That action was legitimate because ISIS was a threat to both our countries. Assad was not. These are the realities of international law.

Without a UN Security council resolution empowering an attack unless there was an actual attack or imminent attack directly against the US the actions of the US were and are completely illegal.

Assad has fought fire with superior fire. The elephant in the dining room is Turkey. The increasing Islamification of a once secular nation and Erdogans declared intent to recreate a latter day Ottoman Empire is creating merry hell in the region.

Allepo is a hotbed of terrorists and their families. Let's not forget how the hamas lot used their willing families as human shields or how they placed weapons amid populated areas and then cried "foul" when those weapons were attacked.

It's to make a huge mistake to look at what is taking place in Allepo purely from a Western standpoint. Very different values and ideas exist where the terrorists are concerned.

Edited to add

Not all armchair generals were always armchair generals.

 

[Warrigal]

My thoughts in blue.

Without a UN Security council resolution empowering an attack unless there was an actual attack or imminent attack directly against the US the actions of the US were and are completely illegal.
While Russia has a veto in the SC there is never going to be a resolution allowing US intervention in Syria. It may be possible to police a safe zone somewhere as happened with the refugees stuck on a mountain top as they were attempting to flee to Turkey, but that was before Russia entered the lists.

Assad has fought fire with superior fire. The elephant in the dining room is Turkey. The increasing Islamification of a once secular nation and Erdogans declared intent to recreate a latter day Ottoman Empire is creating merry hell in the region.
Turkey is a worry and they have always wanted to quell the Kurds inside and outside their borders. I think this is their primary motive right now but I also think that they are PO'd with the EU for not allowing them to join.

Allepo is a hotbed of terrorists and their families. Let's not forget how the hamas lot used their willing families as human shields or how they placed weapons amid populated areas and then cried "foul" when those weapons were attacked.
It's a civil war with multiple participants - Assad and the government, rebels against the government, government supporting militias of Shi'ites backed by Iran, ISIS and other Islamist groups and the Kurds who want to secure a homeland for themselves. War crimes abound on every side.

It's to make a huge mistake to look at what is taking place in Allepo purely from a Western standpoint. Very different values and ideas exist where the terrorists are concerned.
Totally agree. Imagine trying to thrash out sensible rules of engagement.
Edited to add

Not all armchair generals were always armchair generals.
No, but there do seem to be a lot of them, outnumbering the actual generals. :grin:

 

[SeaBreeze]

Before and after photos of Aleppo, more here.

The battle of Aleppo is slowly drawing to a close after almost four and a half years of brutal fighting. A ceasefire agreement was recently reached allowing people to leave besieged areas of the city and travel to rebel-held areas in Idlib province, and pro-government forces, who have taken nearly all rebel-held districts in the city, are in the process of evacuating civilians and rebel fighters.

---

Over 30,000 people are reported to have died since fighting began in 2012, and another 20,000 are thought to have been displaced from Syria's biggest city. Once a popular tourist destination, and famed for its spectacular white marble, Aleppo now lies in ruins. Much of the city's ancient heritage has been damaged, including the Great Mosque, which was built in the 8th century, and the citadel of Aleppo, considered to be one of the largest and oldest castles in the world. The battle might be coming to an end, but some of the damage will never be mended. Take a look at some of these heartbreaking before and after pictures to see the scale of devastation for yourself.

 

[aeron]

The fascist Islamic forces that attacked a government that was not a fascist government by using a combination of lies and brutality and in spite af being tacitly supported by Obama and his European poodle governments has defeated them though it took another nation that was also being attacked by the same fascist Islamic forces to do so.

Good.