The Zombie System

Susie

Susie

Member
Location
Australia
http://www.spiegel.de/international...w-growth-and-growing-inequality-a-998598.html

This article deals in detail with the decline of capitalism in the western world.
e.g. "uneven distribution of opportunity" by Bill Clinton.
A direct quote from article: "Harvard Larry Katz rails that U.S. society has come to resemble a deformed apartment building; the penthouse at the top is getting bigger and bigger; the lower levels are overcrowded; the middle levels are full of empty apartments, and the elevator has stopped running!"
The article is lengthy, some sections a little difficult, but worthy of further discussions, questions, answers, disagreement.
Do we have something to worry about?
Why Zombie???
 

Economics hurts my brain. It is akin to voodoo as far as I am concerned. My eyes tend to glaze over before I can absorb articles like this one.

However, this paragraph did strike a chord

In this sense, the crisis of capitalism has turned into a crisis of democracy. Many feel that their countries are no longer being governed by parliaments and legislatures, but by bank lobbyists, which apply the logic of suicide bombers to secure their privileges: Either they are rescued or they drag the entire sector to its death.
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This is what I feel. Instead of bank lobbyists over here, the forces controlling parliament are first and foremost big global corporations. The most powerful of these are found in the media and the extraction/mining industries with corporate banking in third place.
 
I have always believed that unfettered Capitalism will be the end of the middle class.. Corporations exist for the sole purpose of making a profit. IF left unregulated, they will continue to pull money from the middle class until ALL the money and resources are at the top. Eventually, the top will find that there is no money left to gather... and I guess the economy will come to a halt. WHO will they sell to? Who will have money to buy the products they produce? They will play with the money buying and selling each others shares and creating an enormous bubble of false money that will eventually implode and the economy of the West will be destroyed. Capitalism is a cancer that will destroy itself.. Now that's not to say that I am against capitalism. I like money too... who doesn't. What I am saying is that there needs to be checks and balances.. in the form of taxes and regulations. There needs to be a healthy dose of Socialism injected into an economic system that creates social safety nets that will insure no one falls into abject poverty. A floor if you will.. We need to improve our infrastructure, build better schools and put money into the common good. The economic engine we have created will destroy all of us if we don't.
 

The end of unions and commercializations of benefits for white and blue collar workers has accelerated this process with no end in sight...
 
Ralphy1 said:
The end of unions and commercializations of benefits for white and blue collar workers has accelerated this process with no end in sight...
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Yes.. Union busting and decreasing of SS and Medicare are ways to get MORE of the $$$ up to the top and not be wasted on the poor and Middle Class. There has been a excellent job by Corporations and the wealthy to convince the average person that the poor or other average people are the problem.. I am reminded of this old joke.

"A public union employee, a tea party activist and a CEO are sitting at a table with a plate of a dozen cookies in the middle of it. The CEO takes 11 of the cookies, turns to the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."
 
Davey Jones said:
Just think what it would be like today if unions didnt exist.
They are part of the whole problem.
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Let's see.. Well.. We wouldn't have Employer group health insurance. We wouldn't have the 40 hr. work week. We wouldn't have sick days or vacation days.. we would still have children working in factories. We wouldn't have a minimum wage... heck some of us might still be paid with chits to be spent only at the company store... we wouldn't have overtime pay. We wouldn't have safe workplace regulations. Do you think Employers gave all that because they are nice guys and wanted their workers to be happy? No.. people fought for all that through unions. Things the unions have won have directly benefitted all of us.
 
It pays to know something of social history whether it is women's suffrage, the emancipation of slaves or the struggle of the working class to achieve decent wages and working conditions.
 
What do you think countries threatened by "dying capitalism" should do?
Reintroduce the various types of 'isms' (socialism, communism, nat.soc., etc.), follow the examples of Chinese, N. Korean, Cuban rule?
Or send study groups to countries where democracy seems to be working: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany (see "Gini Coeffient," Wikipedia).
I ask myself, though, how can you compare countries with a small land mass to huge countries like the U.S. or Australia?
Wouldn't it be much easier to regulate and to control a smaller country?
 
Susie said:
What do you think countries threatened by "dying capitalism" should do?
Reintroduce the various types of 'isms' (socialism, communism, nat.soc., etc.), follow the examples of Chinese, N. Korean, Cuban rule?
Or send study groups to countries where democracy seems to be working: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany (see "Gini Coeffient," Wikipedia).
I ask myself, though, how can you compare countries with a small land mass to huge countries like the U.S. or Australia?
Wouldn't it be much easier to regulate and to control a smaller country?
Click to expand...

Democratic Socialism
 
What do you think countries threatened by "dying capitalism" should do?
Click to expand...

A mixed system. Part democratic socialism, part capitalism and neither element unbridled.
If one starts to get out of control, then measures (laws, regulations, oversighting bodies) need to be taken to redress the balance.

It's not an either/or choice.
 
SifuPhil said:
If unions are so useful why couldn't they keep American jobs from going overseas?

Why couldn't they keep Detroit from disappearing?
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When the Bush administration made it finacially profitable... and even gave tax breaks to corporations moving production overseas, how would you expect unions to stop them?
 
QuickSilver said:
When the Bush administration made it finacially profitable... and even gave tax breaks to corporations moving production overseas, how would you expect unions to stop them?
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So what would be their present utility if they can be overcome with a little legislation? Wouldn't they always be an easy target?
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Economics hurts my brain. It is akin to voodoo as far as I am concerned. My eyes tend to glaze over before I can absorb articles like this one.

However, this paragraph did strike a chord



This is what I feel. Instead of bank lobbyists over here, the forces controlling parliament are first and foremost big global corporations. The most powerful of these are found in the media and the extraction/mining industries with corporate banking in third place.
Click to expand...


I think you're speaking for almost every country's system there. Just a matter of degrees, but everybody is jockeying for their position at the trough and taxpayers everywhere are the ones who are supposed to keep that trough filled. Only our cupboards are getting bare!
 
As regards unions: "So what would be their present utility if they can be overcome with a little legislation? Wouldn't they always be an easy target? "

Yes. They only became viable through force and desperation. The potential force is still there...but the desperation is carefully avoided by the powers that be. By deficit spending, the government keeps the population fed and contained. With the same method, it provides high paying skilled union jobs for the defence industries which support our military and it's role in global mediation and moderation. Overall, I can't complain about this combination. Of course, there will come a day when the whole scheme will cave in like all scams. We'd better hope that cool heads prevail that day.
 
QuickSilver,
Do you think 'Democratic Socialism' could be the answer?
Tried in vain to imagine the concept of 'Democratic Socialism', turned to Mr. Google for help.
Various definitions included the label "Left Wing" (Quote: A left wing ideology that aims to introduce democracy into the workforce, i.g. worker cooperatives, and ensure public provision of basic human needs.)
Wikipedia, however, claims there is no exact definition of 'democratic socialism'.
I found Wikipedia's detailed explanations and examples very helpful, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
 
Dame Warrigal said:
A mixed system. Part democratic socialism, part capitalism and neither element unbridled.
If one starts to get out of control, then measures (laws, regulations, oversighting bodies) need to be taken to redress the balance.

It's not an either/or choice.
Click to expand...

Sounds ideal to me, DW! How would it work? Who would be inspired enough to set up this system? Would those in the top ruling society allow it, or would they fight it tooth and nail?
 
Susie said:
Sounds ideal to me, DW! How would it work? Who would be inspired enough to set up this system? Would those in the top ruling society allow it, or would they fight it tooth and nail?
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Of course they wouldn't "allow" it. They can't stand the idea of a minimum wage, food stamps, or healthcare. They would love to get their hands on our Social Security and Medicare in order to make a profit on it. They don't want to pay taxes at all... so no tax increases to fix our roads, bridges, electric grid or water systems.. Everything is falling apart. The only way to do it would be to have a sweeping populace movement to vote the out politicians in the pockets of the Wealthy.. AND the only way to do that is to have vast campaign reform to get the money out of politics.. Here in the States, we would have to start with a Constitutional amendment to rid ourselves of the Citizen's United ruling.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
I think the key is in the word democratic. The form of socialism that emerges is subject to the will of the people through their elected representatives.
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Socialism in the form of setting a floor on poverty... seeing healthcare as a right not a privilage, Making sure ALL our citizens have access to good and equal education. Providing free or at least affordable college tuition.... Taking over utilitities and infrastructure known as the "commons" and seeing that it is in good repair... establishing a high Speed rail system..... Revamping the tax code so the wealthy pay their fair share by eliminating the loopholes that allow legal tax avoidance. This can all be done while still celebrating private ownership of property and business... Still allowing profit and entrepreneurship. and still encouraging people to start businesses, be successful and make money and get ahead.... just not on the backs of the poor and dwindling Middle Class.

Too often.. folks hear the word Socialism... and they think Communism. They are NOT one and the same.
 
QuickSilver said:
Socialism in the form of setting a floor on poverty... seeing healthcare as a right not a privilage, Making sure ALL our citizens have access to good and equal education. Providing free or at least affordable college tuition.... Taking over utilitities and infrastructure known as the "commons" and seeing that it is in good repair... establishing a high Speed rail system..... Revamping the tax code so the wealthy pay their fair share by eliminating the loopholes that allow legal tax avoidance. This can all be done while still celebrating private ownership of property and business... Still allowing profit and entrepreneurship. and still encouraging people to start businesses, be successful and make money and get ahead.... just not on the backs of the poor and dwindling Middle Class.

Too often.. folks hear the word Socialism... and they think Communism. They are NOT one and the same.
Click to expand...

I agree.:)
 
"Sounds ideal to me, DW! How would it work? Who would be inspired enough to set up this system? Would those in the top ruling society allow it, or would they fight it tooth and nail? "
Don't look now but that's exactly what the Democratic Party is trying to develop while the representatives of the ruling class (Republicans)...fight it tooth and nail.
 
A tree grows one cell at a time. A house is built on brick at a time, one nail at a time.
Nothing good ever emerges fully formed in a puff of smoke.
 

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