Time for a paradigm shift

RCynic said:
Yeah, that's where we're different. I do not believe in any religions or other superstitions.
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Nor do I. ;)

I believe in what can be clearly proven to me by what basically boils down to the scientific method. I'm a scientist at heart and if it is not repeatable, testable and falsifiable, then my answer is that I don't believe. It's worked for me fine the last 40+ years so that's where I am.
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Understood - I served my time at Union Carbide, General Foods and Exide Batteries as a chemist and safety manager and I understand the mind-set.

But I'm also a practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine (well, retired) and I've seen too many successful treatments to totally disregard it.
 

Just sayin said:
... Taking care of yourself is fine, but when catastrophe arrives its time to reach for the unfortunately expensive plastic boxes.
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That's what they've trained us to believe. The constant bombardment of advertising, perfectly targeted to our fears ... the lingering perception that "doctor knows best" ... the awe in which we view the entire medical profession ...

I'm not sure of all the laws concerning patenting (nor even many of them), but I believe that a natural substance by itself cannot be patented. Now, granted, if you mix in some synthetics and give it a catchy new name then yes, you can probably own it, but then the efficiency of the original substance is reduced.

Another possible problem they might foresee is that the general public isn't quite as dumb as they are assumed to be - that they'll discover what the true active ingredient is and simply go out into their backyard and pick some.
 
Bayer has a very dark history, not the least of which is the disputes that Hoffman was the first to "create" aspirin. They went through quite a bit of litigation in the early 1900's fighting the documented claims from other scientists who had ostensibly come up with the same formulation many years prior.

Bayer aspirin is what - 90% actetylsalicylic acid and 10% binder and filler? So they add a little paste to willow bark extract and suddenly they're the saviors of the world?

Meh. ;)
 
SifuPhil said:
Bayer has a very dark history, not the least of which is the disputes that Hoffman was the first to "create" aspirin. They went through quite a bit of litigation in the early 1900's fighting the documented claims from other scientists who had ostensibly come up with the same formulation many years prior.

Bayer aspirin is what - 90% actetylsalicylic acid and 10% binder and filler? So they add a little paste to willow bark extract and suddenly they're the saviors of the world?

Meh. ;)
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When you said Bayer has a dark history were you talking about I B Farben the mother of Bayer that funded 100% of Auschwitz concentration camp. Later they changed there uniforms for suites. This same company that shipped aids infected products to Europe and Latin America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spnEaO3yumk
 
They aren't just plants - they're minerals and animal as well ...

Like anything in life of any worth, you have to have knowledge of what you're doing. You can't just traipse through the woods picking this and chewing that, otherwise you'll end up as bear-food.

Knowledge.

And you cannot short-cut the process by ordering from WWW.WeBeHolistic.com - I would venture to say that 90% of holistic suppliers are con-men. The main problem is that you do not know what you're getting, and even if it IS what they claim you don't know how long it's been sitting around in some warehouse somewhere, losing its potency.

But gee - we don't know what we're getting with those cheap 'scripts, either! We're trusting ol' Doc Sawbones to give up what we need - not to cure, mind you, just to cover up the symptoms. The fact that he long ago stopped being an observer of the Hippocratic Oath in lieu of becoming a pill-pusher shouldn't affect our judgment ...

And of course your meds are cheaper - you're "in the system". You're hooked. They have you and you know it. They've somehow managed to convince you that what they're shoving down your throat is actually good for you. And of course, when the symptoms disappear you think you're cured.

I acknowledge that the main drawback of holistics is NOT that they don't work - it's that you have to devote so much time and effort to learning what DOES.

d0ug said:
When you said Bayer has a dark history were you talking about I B Farben the mother of Bayer that funded 100% of Auschwitz concentration camp. Later they changed there uniforms for suites. This same company that shipped aids infected products to Europe and Latin America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spnEaO3yumk
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That's a very large part of it, yes, dOug. :encouragement:
 
I think that there is a lot of fast and loose information here passing for knowledge.

Also, relative to treating symptoms vs. a "cure", I had this discussion with a physician who was a customer of mine. We were discussing AIDS treatments and I remarked that it was still incurable. He cited a number of studies with recent drug combinations that had been very effective in prolonging life. When I suggested that prolonging life was not a cure, he said, "Well, sure it is. If I can treat your symptoms successfully enough that you lead a relatively normal life, until such time as you die from something else, as far as the medical community is concerned, you were effectively cured of that disease."

His point is valid. What is the point of any treatment? To give one back one's life to live, until such time as something that can't be fixed takes us. It really doesn't matter if it's just treating the symptoms very effectively, or eliminating it entirely as with some parasites. Some thing's cannot be "cured" however, the only thing that can be done is to treat symptoms. Retroviruses fall into this class because they integrate themselves into your genome.

At NCI, we worked with MMTV, Mouse Mammary Tumor Virus, you could treat the mice with certain hormones, certain chemicals, other types of insults and low and behold, their mammary gland cells started cranking out MMTV; you could see virus budding from mammary epithelium where there was none in the non-treated controls. Where did they come from? From the genome of the mice themselves. There is currently no way of getting rid of something like that. We see exactly the same things with the Varicella virus which causes Chicken Pox. It integrates into our genome, waits around for years and then the virus spontaneously appears from our own cells as Shingles.
 
RCynic said:
I think that there is a lot of fast and loose information here passing for knowledge.
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In what way?

Also, relative to treating symptoms vs. a "cure", I had this discussion with a physician who was a customer of mine. We were discussing AIDS treatments and I remarked that it was still incurable. He cited a number of studies with recent drug combinations that had been very effective in prolonging life. When I suggested that prolonging life was not a cure, he said, "Well, sure it is. If I can treat your symptoms successfully enough that you lead a relatively normal life, until such time as you die from something else, as far as the medical community is concerned, you were effectively cured of that disease."
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Silly me - I always thought that quality of life was far more important than quantity.

What your physician friend perhaps did not allude to was that this method of treatment also guaranteed a nice steady income stream.

His point is valid. What is the point of any treatment? To give one back one's life to live, until such time as something that can't be fixed takes us. It really doesn't matter if it's just treating the symptoms very effectively, or eliminating it entirely as with some parasites. Some thing's cannot be "cured" however, the only thing that can be done is to treat symptoms. Retroviruses fall into this class because they integrate themselves into your genome.
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Agreed that some things cannot be cured, by ANY means - that's not what I'm referring to, though. I'm talking about everyday illnesses. I'm talking depression, I'm talking irritable bowel, I'm talking headache - the thousand and one little afflictions that we're subjected to in the course of a lifetime that could be treated AND CURED by safer alternative methods.



 
Sorry to be tardy...got involved in a good book.

Anyway, I was just coming back to the issue of belief vs. knowledge. I realize there are all kinds of esoteric arguments about that but I'm talking at a pretty basic level. I believe I have $2 in my pocket, but I don't "know" for sure, until I check...that element of being testable. I can believe there are teapots in the rings of Saturn but that is, currently, beyond our ability to test, so it doesn't really qualify as knowledge. So, we can believe things but unless they can be tested and repeatably yield results beyond what simple chance would yield, then there is really no reason to believe, other than a desire to do so. As Hitchens said, "What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence".

Regarding probability, there is also the issue of how we acquire knowledge. Logically deducing something does not mean it is correct. In fact, deductive arguments by their very nature, even though correctly argued, are frequently inherently false. Instead, we acquire knowledge of the world around us from inductive probability. And this is also the essence of how science works.

My customer physician was in the Public Health Service doing research. He didn't receive money for practicing medicine, which he did at a clinic free of charge. This was coming from a really good guy and a decent person. He was just stating how it is.

I think eventually we will cure just about everything that ails us, provided we can successfully identify it. I will never see that in my lifetime of course but again, we've only been at this for the very briefest of time given how long our various ailments have had to become part of us.
 
Wholistic medicine has been around for years and taken as good science. for example putting back into the body what is missing scurvy was a vitamin C deficiency and when people ate lemons it when away, rickets was a vitamin D deficiency disease and people sat in the sun and it when away, pellagra a simple vitamin B3 deficiency, beriberi a simple vitamin B1 deficiency, Iron-deficiency anemia self explanatory, Osteoporosis a calcium phosphorus and vitamin D, Most all birth defects are mineral and vitamin deficiencies. The list of mineral deficiency diseases would fill many pages.

I don’t know of any disease which is a lack of pharmaceutical drugs.
Stopping symptoms with drugs is the stupid. It would be like when the red light comes on in your car is a symptom of a problem and cutting the wire dose not fix the problem only get rid of the symptom
 
I don't know of anyone that ever claimed that lack of a pharmaceutical drug caused a disease. Defective genomes, metabolic errors, pathogens, chemical toxicity, all these things cause disease. Certain drugs can kill pathogens, interferon can interfere in virus replication, vaccines to not occur in nature, but their development by man virtually eliminated polio and small pox. The latter is now found mainly in research labs and the former is recurring in third world countries because people have not been getting vaccinated (for economic reasons). Furthermore, some of the pharmaceuticals you distain are in fact naturally occuring compounds. When science recognizes a legitimate use for them, they have no hesitation to being it to market. Taxol, extracted from the common yew for example, is an extemely potent anti-cancer drug. Pharmaceutical companies are collecting like crazy from the South American rain forests in a race to identify future drug candidates before the forests are decimated. The list goes on and on. It is emphatically not stupid to stop symptoms with drugs. It is however stupid to deny their benefits in treating serious illness.
 
If the only information comes from the medical system you will not hear the truth you will hear what benefits the medical system. They only make money when you are sick they make nothing when you are well.

Defective genomes Dr Watson of Watson and Crick the people who founded the genome research said that it has nothing to do with disease. There is a new science call epigenetics which explains all these so called genetic problems.
Yes thank goodness to antibiotics and pain killers but for any chronic ailments the medical system sucks.
The vaccines are a fraud and any search will give you the answer. The old bate and switch used by crooks they cured polio by giving t a different name.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRNFoHOsaw0
Yes the pharmaceutical are searching the world for natural cures they can turn into drugs and if it can not be you will not hear about it. One was sour sop they done research and showed it was 10,000 times better than chemo. But they could not make it as a drug so you will not see it. One doctor who was on the study broke the gag order to get the information out.

Tom Young
Thanks for bringing up Life expectancy
Longer life had to do with sanitation and not medical system.
Life expectancy
U.S. Doctors 56 years
Couch potato 75 years
A child living in the country side of Costa Rica no doctor 100+ years
 
The debate rages on in my head over natural remedies and modern medicine. However, I haven't been to a doctor in nearly 30 years. But I am one of the lucky few to live with pure air and water where wild medicines and wonderful wild foods grow just for the taking.

What bothers me the most is it appears to me that doctors have become primarily sales representatives for big pharma. It astonishes and saddens me when I so often see folks who depend on doctors consume one drug after another, some to cover the effects of the other until their bodies don't know what the heck is going on! Prescriptions that are advertised all day on the networks, "ask your doctor, ask your doctor"... ads that require more time to rattle off the side effects than to tout any possible benefits, some life threatening. Prescriptions that warn not to stop taking it! What the?

I know it's hard when you live in a city but I can't help think that a healthy diet and lifestyle goes a lot farther to stay well than any chemical drugs. With the internet it's easier than ever to at least try a natural remedy before running to the doctor for another drug, or eat a healthier diet. I just hate to see so many people so dependent on synthetic drugs and I don't think it's all necessary.

A favorite story is of an old native man who didn't know he was diabetic until he was drafted in WW2. His gramma had always made him drink the root of a plant growing here that kept his blood sugar balanced. In the white man's world, of course, he had to take shots.
 

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