What are the origins of good and evil?

[grahamg]

No, I don't hate the word good and the concept of good.

It is a good question though as is the OP raising good questions we've all attempted to respond to.

If you shut down the word "evil" due to the fact its bandied about too much or wrongly used to label or condemn people we couldn't have this discussion could we?

 

[asp3]

It is a good question though as is the OP raising good questions we've all attempted to respond to.

If you shut down the word "evil" due to the fact its bandied about too much or wrongly used to label or condemn people we couldn't have this discussion could we?

It isn't so much that I don't think we could have this discussion as we could frame it a different way. I think it might be a better question to ask why people do things we consider to be evil which to me is a very different question.

If I get back to the question as originally posted I'd say the origins of good and evil are our evolution as a society and then our individual histories. There are acts that some people think are evil whereas other people consider them the norms of their society. One example would be honor killings. I consider them evil whereas there are some people who think they are necessary to preserve the honor of one's family or tribe.

 

[gennie]

Origins of good and evil?

In the human mind. We are the only creature that understands the concept and it is a learned process.

 

[grahamg]

It isn't so much that I don't think we could have this discussion as we could frame it a different way. I think it might be a better question to ask why people do things we consider to be evil which to me is a very different question.
If I get back to the question as originally posted I'd say the origins of good and evil are our evolution as a society and then our individual histories. There are acts that some people think are evil whereas other people consider them the norms of their society. One example would be honor killings. I consider them evil whereas there are some people who think they are necessary to preserve the honor of one's family or tribe.

Right, we've plenty to discuss here now, though I remain of the view describing someone "evil" has to be an acceptable word to use in some circumstances. They say if you use "Hitler" in a discussion you've lost the argument, and I'll accept what someone once told me, "even Hitler wasn't all bad", (said by a guy called Norman from the old East Germany, though it is possible he did it to pull the legs of his work colleagues!).
However, it would not be sensible to say, "what Hitler did was evil", without at the same time impugning the man himself as evil I believe, not least because of his attitude to killing so many people, or inspiring such cruelty to be done.

Your honour killing argument, leads me to what I know is a silly argument, but "on a scale of one to ten where would you put someone responsible for an honour killing, or supporting such actions, compared to Hitler"? Its a silly argument so please dont anyone try to give an answer, but it again leads to something, and this is the fact the avoidance of killing another human being is so ingrained in our psyche that our military commanders learned after WWI, or WWII, only about 10% of our troops were able to kill their enemies in warfare. They have now had to institute policies to avoid troops considering their enemies as human beings like themselves, or to at least somehow to lessen this abhorrence of killing during training procedures.

 

[asp3]

I think one of the reasons I object to calling people evil, even though I consider what they've done reprehensible, is because I think it gives support to the idea that there are good people and evil people. I find that some people who believe that also believe that there will always be evil people. With that opinion there isn't any reason to see if we can prevent people from doing evil things because some people are just evil.

I am not one of the people who would give Hitler any credit for anything he might have done that can be seen as good. However on the other hand Hitler was a baby and then a young boy at one time. I'm not sure if we know enough about that period of his life to know whether or not he was doing evil things as a boy.

We do know that at least some killers are cruel to animals as children. So we do know that something in their brains or what they've learned has lead them to behave this way. I think it's important for us to try to find out what we can do with such people so they turn out to be "good" people.

I've been reading about our aversion to killing in the book I'm reading so I'm aware of that. What studies of the most effective (and deadly) combat teams was that it was the cohesiveness of the teams and their level of comradery that predicted it.

I also agree that there are levels or magnitudes of evil abilities or tendencies. I don't think your thoughts about that was a silly argument. So I'd agree that one can assess levels of evil or seriousness of evil acts in order to best direct our efforts at stopping them in level of importance. The argument I was trying to make is that what's evil for some is standard practice for others.

 

[Knight]

Man made from dust =good
Snake= evil

variations of good & evil taking place as time past

 

[grahamg]

If you dont mind I'll just pick out a few quotes from your post and respond to them in turn as best I can(?)

asp3 wrote:
"I think one of the reasons I object to calling people evil, even though I consider what they've done reprehensible, is because I think it gives support to the idea that there are good people and evil people. I find that some people who believe that also believe that there will always be evil people. With that opinion there isn't any reason to see if we can prevent people from doing evil things because some people are just evil."

Hmmm, I think it fair to assume there are good and evil people, in the sense not everyone in our populations could turn into a serial killer whatever you did to them in their early lives or beyond, and equally there are serial killers who could have been treated completely differently all their lives, (lets say using the example of identical twins?), and would still have gone on to do what they eventually did.

This is very far from saying the way you bring a child up has no bearing whatsoever on the way they turn out on the "evil or good scale", because that is completely ridiculous to say or think such a thing, and with my father's rights hat on for a second, I would be claiming their dads involvement in the child's life made no difference to them, (ditto their mother).

asp3 wrote:
"I am not one of the people who would give Hitler any credit for anything he might have done that can be seen as good. However on the other hand Hitler was a baby and then a young boy at one time. I'm not sure if we know enough about that period of his life to know whether or not he was doing evil things as a boy.
We do know that at least some killers are cruel to animals as children."

Hitler, as I understand it was prepared to be kind to animals whilst doing what he did to so many humans, but one exception does not disprove your suggested rule, although my feelings would be do not put too much reliance upon it. What accolades might one fairly give Hitler, I'd accept Churchill's view when he acknowledged his role in resisting communism, and stop there, though my father recognised he must have had a very quick brain, and considerable understanding about how to build cohesive organisation, you couldn't really argue against those things, be they evil or good.

asp wrote:
"The argument I was trying to make is that what's evil for some is standard practice for others."

I may be misinterpreting your comments but this sounds a little like excusing wrong doing that might be fairly described as evil, (apologies if I am misinterpreting you?).

My last comment is to ask you a question you really dont need to answer, but I will answer it for myself. Have you ever been told you are evil, (I have ! )?

 

[asp3]

If you dont mind I'll just pick out a few quotes from your post and respond to them in turn as best I can(?)

equally there are serial killers who could have been treated completely differently all their lives, (lets say using the example of identical twins?), and would still have gone on to do what they eventually did.

I may be misinterpreting your comments but this sounds a little like excusing wrong doing that might be fairly described as evil, (apologies if I am misinterpreting you?).

My last comment is to ask you a question you really dont need to answer, but I will answer it for myself. Have you ever been told you are evil, (I have ! )?

I don't mind you picking out a few points. I'm also just keeping a few of your words in the quote to make the thread more readable.

I do think we can learn ways to keep most killers from murdering others. I have no idea how that would happen but I do believe it's possible. I think continuing the idea of there being people who are good and people who are evil prevents this from happening because some people will believe you can't fix evil.

I'm not trying to excuse practices I find evil, I'm just saying that one person's evil is another person's reasonable. I'm fairly sure there are plenty of people who think abortion is evil. I think that might be one that fits better in the western world than my honor killing example. However in this case I'm not one of the people who finds abortion evil.

I don't think anyone has accused me of being evil, at least not to my face or to anyone who'd tell me they said it.

 

[grahamg]

I don't mind you picking out a few points. I'm also just keeping a few of your words in the quote to make the thread more readable.
I do think we can learn ways to keep most killers from murdering others. I have no idea how that would happen but I do believe it's possible. I think continuing the idea of there being people who are good and people who are evil prevents this from happening because some people will believe you can't fix evil.
I'm not trying to excuse practices I find evil, I'm just saying that one person's evil is another person's reasonable. I'm fairly sure there are plenty of people who think abortion is evil. I think that might be one that fits better in the western world than my honor killing example. However in this case I'm not one of the people who finds abortion evil.
I don't think anyone has accused me of being evil, at least not to my face or to anyone who'd tell me they said it.

"I'm glad you've lead a blameless life", (joke okay, and just to make it worse I'll quote Paul Newman, "If you have no enemies you have no character", but you do, just thrown in for fun by someone once described as "evil or ill"! ).
Have you any experience trying to alter the behaviour of someone whose behaviour and personality others might describe as evil?
I did once involve myself in a local church group visiting a women's prison.
I agree with you to this extent I did not meet any evil people there, (though the way the female warders once shouted at the inmates to tell them our chaplains hour was over sounded pretty evil, or at least very scary to me! ). I believe a woman convicted or murder or assisting one of Britain's most notorious murderers once was imprisoned there, though she had died long before my ever visiting the prison. The woman I'm referring to was famously befriended by a lord, and obviously therefore a member of our House of Lords, (Lord Longford, a leading member who championed prison reform I believe). The woman I'm referring to had a daughter, who apparently grew up into a law abiding citizen, and allowed herself to be photographed by an excellent local photographer, (someone who had been chosen to photograph royalty, and photos only released long after they were taken to avoid identifying this child).

 

[Sunny]

Is there a universal acceptance of what constitutes good, and what constitutes evil? Let's start with that.

 

[Gary O']

What are the origins of good and evil?​

Chemical? Spiritual? Something else?

I'm gonna say 'something else'

And that something else was my little fat brother

Sheer evil

He always told on me

....no matter how I bribed him


OK, serious;

Thinking only of self.....that's the beginning of evil
and as you go, to gets worse


Thinking of others.....that's a good start
and that grows...can't be helped
The more you think of others, the more you want to

I'm pretty sure the 2nd stone of commandments covers that

The first stone gets us aligned with God

That's the best start ever

 

[Mr. Ed]

I myself hate the word and the concept of evil. To me it's yet another label that makes things too black and white and keeps us from addressing problems.

There are many people who are labeled evil especially child molesters, rapists, murders and others. Even though I find their acts horrible we have to remember that these people were once children themselves. Somehow their lives lead them to do acts that shouldn't have been done.

We do know that some people have differences in their brain structure which caused them to be psychopaths. However most people with psychopathic brain structures do not act in ways that are considered evil. One can accurately predict whether or not someone is a psychopath by looking at brain scans. In fact one researcher who was looking into the brain structures of psychopaths found out he was one after accidentally putting his brain scan in with those of others he was evaluating. You can read his story here https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/

I am not trying to forgive these people from doing things we consider evil, but if we see them as flawed human beings we can potentially learn from them what caused them to act out when others do not do so.

So in answer to the original poster's question we know that brain structures can lead to conditions that tend to be more prone to acts that people consider evil.

I agree, evil may be defined as in conflict or opposition to God. Perhaps Satan was the first to oppose God and be cast out from him.
If evil is opposing God the origin of evil would be when Satan rebelled against God.

If Satan’s rebellion was established evil, it is likely goodness existed before evil as God was before all. God is the basis of good /evil because they cannot exist without the other.

 

[asp3]

I agree, evil may be defined as in conflict or opposition to God. Perhaps Satan was the first to oppose God and be cast out from him.
If evil is opposing God the origin of evil would be when Satan rebelled against God.

If Satan’s rebellion was established evil, it is likely goodness existed before evil as God was before all. God is the basis of good /evil because they cannot exist without the other.

That works for people who believe in god, but for those that don't it isn't a good explanation.

However your posting brought up an interesting question for me, do non-theistic religions like Buddhism have the concept of evil. I found a really interesting article https://www.learnreligions.com/buddhism-and-evil-449720 that addressed this. It gave me some things to think about and also did a better job explaining why the concept of evil is not a helpful one and explains how the concept has lead to horrible acts in human history.

 

[chic]

Origins of good and evil?

In the human mind. We are the only creature that understands the concept and it is a learned process.

I disagree. If I saw a serial killer in the act of torturing, and maiming a screaming pleading victim, I don't need learned behavior to tell me there is something so deviant and abhorrent about this it's completely unacceptable behavior.

It's instinctive. It's self preservation. What about the pictures of survivors of World War II concentration camps like Treblinka, Auschwitz and Sobibor who were worked and starved nearly to death? There are levels of atrocity so extreme one doesn't need to fall back on learned behavior to know this is abnormal in the extreme and the perpetrators should be separated from the rest of society.

 

[Gardenlover]

That works for people who believe in god, but for those that don't it isn't a good explanation.

However your posting brought up an interesting question for me, do non-theistic religions like Buddhism have the concept of evil. I found a really interesting article https://www.learnreligions.com/buddhism-and-evil-449720 that addressed this. It gave me some things to think about and also did a better job explaining why the concept of evil is not a helpful one and explains how the concept has lead to horrible acts in human history.

Interesting article - thanks for sharing it.

 

[gennie]

I disagree. If I saw a serial killer in the act of torturing, and maiming a screaming pleading victim, I don't need learned behavior to tell me there is something so deviant and abhorrent about this it's completely unacceptable behavior.

It's instinctive. It's self preservation. What about the pictures of survivors of World War II concentration camps like Treblinka, Auschwitz and Sobibor who were worked and starved nearly to death? There are levels of atrocity so extreme one doesn't need to fall back on learned behavior to know this is abnormal in the extreme and the perpetrators should be separated from the rest of society.

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

If you had been taught from infancy that the behavior was normal and the right thing to do, I think it would overcome any instinct of decency.

Something else that works, being a member of a cult who had been brainwashed by the leader.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

What is the origin of sin if not from God himself?

That is answered in Isaiah 45:7 where god boasts of creating all good and evil. See also,

Amos 3:6 When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?