What Do You Know About Religions?

Dame Warrigal said:
I find resonance in this answer. As long as organised religions obey good laws they should not be curtailed. Sometimes they are necessary to stand up to bad laws. If they break good laws then the leaders should be held accountable.

As for personal crises, people who elevate science above all else are not the best people to turn to. Cold logic is cold comfort. When my sister lost her first child in the womb at 30 weeks, I was unable to find any words of comfort for her. All I had was dumb silence and tears. It was said by a young atheist that I should have told her that it was for the best because the baby must have been defective and that she could try again for another. I shake my head at this because it lacks humanity and compassion. A programmed robot could do better than this.

I've learned since that wordless tears are actually very powerful expressions of love and the best response to suffering is to share in it. It has been my religious journey that has taught me this rather obvious truth, not my scientific studies.
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Compassion between human beings. Shared suffering between humans beings. Tears shed together as human beings. Yes.
What does religion add to that except a lot of questions about why has God done this to me? What does science take away, except to say that we are all in this together and share your grief at the same sad reality?
 

Underock1 said:
Compassion between human beings. Shared suffering between humans beings. Tears shed together as human beings. Yes.
Compassion, shared suffering and tears predate science by millennia. Literature, songs and poetry teach us a lot more about these things than science ever could.

What does religion add to that except a lot of questions about why has God done this to me?
What does science take away, except to say that we are all in this together and share your grief at the same sad reality?
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Different religions add different things. Buddhism offers a philosophy of acceptance and of denial of self.
Buddhism is a religion pretty centrally concerned with suffering. It never really stops studying the suffering of oneself and that of other people. These form a central focus of the religion, its practice and its philosophy. One is encouraged to explore what suffering is, the various forms it comes in and their root causes. To deal with suffering practitioners attempt to follow the Four Noble Truths. The nature of suffering is determined by how one reacts to it.


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Islam sees suffering as a test.

In the latter view, suffering tests belief; a true Muslim will remain faithful through the trials of life. But suffering also reveals the hidden self to God. Suffering is built into the fabric of existence so that God may see who is truly righteous. In other words, God not only allows the various agonies and struggles of life, but has a purpose for them. Suffering opens up the soul and reveals it to God. God uses suffering to look within humans and test their characters, and correct the unbelievers.

For modern Jews, the tragic events of the Holocaust represent the most troubling examples of evil and suffering in all of human history. There have been many different responses to this most traumatic example of human suffering. One example is

Theologian Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907-1972), for example, argued that the Holocaust should move people to examine their own behavior, and not that of God: “The question about Auschwitz is not where was God, but where was man?” In a world where men and women are given free will (as the Hebrew Bible insists), we are accountable for our own moral failings. The time has come, Heschel insists, to heed God’s call and work as His partner in completing the work of creation.


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Christians identify with a God who has already suffered. Jesus is the "suffering servant" of mankind. Suffering is not an optional extra for Christians. It "comes with the turf". Christians are told to expect suffering as a condition of their faith and to help others to bear their suffering. Kindness offered to strangers in the form of food, drink, shelter, clothing and visitation is seen as kindness offered to Jesus himself.

Matthew 25:35-40New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, [SUP]36 [/SUP]I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

[SUP]37 [/SUP]“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? [SUP]38 [/SUP]When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? [SUP]39 [/SUP]When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

[SUP]40 [/SUP]“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


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Science studies physical pain and ways to eliminate or minimise it and modern psychiatry studies emotional pain and has developed treatments but it isn't the scientists or the psychiatrists who knock on the door with chicken soup, or boxes of groceries and toys. Nor does science speak very much about compassion.

Compassion existed before both science and religion came into existence. Religions give it different levels of importance. In that sense they can all be said to add something to this issue. So can philosophy, one of the oldest of the humanities.

Science is not concerned with it at all. It neither adds nor subtracts anything, but scientists are human and all humans, of all faiths and none, are capable of compassion.
 
Chicken soup, boxes of groceries, and toys, are fine examples of humanity at its best. Religion just adds a lot of questions and needless worry. Will God punish the dead? If He loved me, why is he taking my child? Am I being punished? Oh. That's right. He must need another little angel. Well too bad on me!
Much better, at least to my mind, to just say death happens. There's nothing personal about it, and you don't suffer after you die. My wife continues to live on in my thoughts. She will until I die. What more after life is needed? I'm content that she is at peace, and no longer in pain after years of having needles stuck in her every day. I am not worried about what her fate might be at the hands of some imaginary creature for eternity. Just my view, but I'm happy with it.
 

I disagree, Underock, humanity at its best works to ensure that the need for chicken soup, groceries and toys is minimised and poverty and disadvantage are eliminated. When scientists, people of faith and people of no faith at all feel compassion for the suffering of the world and are spurred into joint action to do something about it. When the needs of self are deliberately given lower priority than the needs of people who are worse off than us.

We can and do do this on occasions and I am very inspired when I see it and even more so when I am part of it. Humanity has come a long way since descending from the trees but has a long way to go the reach our zenith. Can science show us how to reach it? Can religion? Will we ever become United Earth? Can we build the Kingdom of Heaven on our planet?

I really hope so and hope is faith. With faith, hope and love as the dominant attributes there will be no further need of religion or gods. Do you think we are there yet? Or even close?

Too many questions and I don't have the answers but my eyes are raised to the stars, not looking at the mud on my boots. I am always an optimist but I know that my strength is puny by itself. I need to be part of a community to join my various strengths: physical, intellectual, ethical and moral, to the strengths of others. At its best, the church can be a community that works for the benefit of humanity. However, all communities tend to become lost and corrupted over time. That is why reformations tend to happen. I believe that the next reformation will see a totally different Christian church emerge and it will be for the better. I just hope it won't be a bloody transformation like the last one.

Secular organisations need periodic reformations too. I'm thinking governments and multinational and global corporations. I just hope that it won't require another bloody revolution too.

I'm rambling now. It's time to prepare food.
TTFN
 
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I'm not sure exactly what it is that you disagree with. I agree with just about everything you say above. My eyes are on the stars too. I just add the Hubble telescope. I have no argument with the church as community what so ever. One of the warmest experiences of my life was being part of that community many years ago. I believe I applauded earlier, those churches that recently closed Sunday services, and ventured out as a group to perform community services. Science may be about cold, hard facts. That does not make scientists heartless people. Doctors Without Borders? I am a one worlder through and through. Enough with the "Them and Us" stuff. There is only "Us". That is one of my major complaints about religion. "My God is better than your God". It is by its very nature divisive, unless one religion conquers all. I am optimistic about the future of humanity, unless some religious fanatics destroy us all.

XXHH :)
 
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Ok, you climb the south face of the mountain and I'll scramble up the north side.
I think we'll both meet at the top. When we do, we'll swap notes and share snapshots. :joyous:
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Ok, you climb the south face of the mountain and I'll scramble up the north side.
I think we'll both meet at the top. When we do, we'll swap notes and share snapshots. :joyous:
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Nah. I'm tired. I'll just sit on the South slope, soaking up the Sun and watching the birds. Yell down to me when you get to the top. Have a nice climb. :)
 
I forgot to tell you that the mountain is in the Southern Hemisphere so your south slope is in the shade but that's good because it's very hot. Watching the birds is good but don't sit near any bull ants nests. They are very mean little buggers.
 
DW, that is a very incomplete description of Buddhism.

Buddhism is a path of practice and spiritual development leading to Insight into the true nature of reality. Buddhist practices like meditation are means of changing yourself in order to develop the qualities of awareness, kindness, and wisdom. The experience developed within the Buddhist tradition over thousands of years has created an incomparable resource for all those who wish to follow a path — a path which ultimately culminates in Enlightenment or Buddhahood. An enlightened being sees the nature of reality absolutely clearly, just as it is, and lives fully and naturally in accordance with that vision. This is the goal of the Buddhist spiritual life, representing the end of suffering for anyone who attains it.
Because Buddhism does not include the idea of worshipping a creator god, some people do not see it as a religion in the normal, Western sense. The basic tenets of Buddhist teaching are straightforward and practical: nothing is fixed or permanent; actions have consequences; change is possible. So Buddhism addresses itself to all people irrespective of race, nationality, caste, sexuality, or gender. It teaches practical methods which enable people to realise and use its teachings in order to transform their experience, to be fully responsible for their lives.
 
Funny how religion has a comparatively poor track record for actually alleviating suffering, while science has increased food production, brought water to arid areas, made medical strides ...

Religion has been happy to stay the same it has ever been and tell us we have to suffer.
 
... and also developed gunpowder, chemical weapons of mass destruction and nuclear weapons. :lofl:

It's a double sided coin, as is the track record of organised religion. Both reflect the duality of mankind who are the ones who actually apply science and religion.

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies in ourselves that" we often act like bastards.
 
I was astounded to discover that I scored 15 out of 15 on the quiz. I'm not a follower of any organized religion and never will be but I'm interested in religion from an objective point of view. I've signed up for some classes in Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism in the coming months. I attended a class in atheism taught by the professor who will teach these classes and like his teaching style very much. So I may be posting more about this in the future.
 
SifuPhil said:
Funny how religion has a comparatively poor track record for actually alleviating suffering, while science has increased food production, brought water to arid areas, made medical strides ...

Religion has been happy to stay the same it has ever been and tell us we have to suffer.
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Dame Warrigal said:
... and also developed gunpowder, chemical weapons of mass destruction and nuclear weapons. :lofl:

It's a double sided coin, as is the track record of organised religion. Both reflect the duality of mankind who are the ones who actually apply science and religion.

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies in ourselves that" we often act like bastards.
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why.jpg
 
Dame Warrigal said:
... and also developed gunpowder, chemical weapons of mass destruction and nuclear weapons. :lofl:

It's a double sided coin, as is the track record of organised religion. Both reflect the duality of mankind who are the ones who actually apply science and religion.

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies in ourselves that" we often act like bastards.
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Whereas religion only killed millions with their dogma ... right.

I think the main divide is that religion was created to control Mankind, whereas science was created to release them. Yes, there are side-effects, but look at the overall score - which has done more for or against us?

Einstein was wrong when he said, 'God does not play dice'. Consideration of black holes suggests, not only that God does play dice, but that he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen.
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~Stephen Hawking
 

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