What is socialism?

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Senter said:
Uhhh …….. “being cordial”? But “expertise” is probably a stretch. I’m noticing my vocabulary shrinking as I age. Is that normal? LOL!
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I'm sure I don't know. I'm not an expert but you seemed to act like you are so I thought you would know.
I'm sure there's an expert for that here somewhere though. There are experts everywhere here! It's great!
 

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Senter said:
Thanks, but “non-socialist”?
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Nauta-socialist? Oh bother, it’s all so confusing, the semantics involved. You seem like you’re probably okay and you don’t seem threatening. So yeah, I think you’re probably okay. Not a braggart or a layabout, it seems, so that’s all I really need to know to give you my stamp of approval. Nice to chat with you but socialitis causes me to think I’ve enjoyed this subject for long enough. Maybe even more than. Thanks for the civility. I rather fancy that.
 
Get the homeless to fix up the infrastructure, and learn a trade, like Socialist F.D. Roosevelt did in 1930s, WPA.

So called public debt is a result of machinations of the dems, and bureaucracy in WDC over many decades.

Most US gov sending is a waste of taxpayer money

J
 
Jean-Paul said:
Get the homeless to fix up the infrastructure, and learn a trade, like Socialist F.D. Roosevelt did in 1930s, WPA.

So called public debt is a result of machinations of the dems, and bureaucracy in WDC over many decades.

Most US gov sending is a waste of taxpayer money

J
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I think the important thing to know and never forget is that the government isn’t stupid. The many seemingly dumb and wasteful things we see being done are not a result of ignorance or inept handling by elected officials. It’s mostly intentional with elected officials being content to look stupid rather than look like they’re favoring the rich and intentionally destroying the country for them. Find a program that looks botched, wasteful, or foolish and follow the money. You’ll see.
 
Jean-Paul said:
Get the homeless to fix up the infrastructure, and learn a trade, like Socialist F.D. Roosevelt did in 1930s, WPA.

So called public debt is a result of machinations of the dems, and bureaucracy in WDC over many decades.
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Must I report this crap as being political? I ain't no snitch, but it is ignorant. Stay in France IMO.
 
Senter said:
I think the important thing to know and never forget is that the government isn’t stupid. The many seemingly dumb and wasteful things we see being done are not a result of ignorance or inept handling by elected officials. It’s mostly intentional with elected officials being content to look stupid rather than look like they’re favoring the rich and intentionally destroying the country for them. Find a program that looks botched, wasteful, or foolish and follow the money. You’ll see.
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It is a big mistake to think that our political leadership is stupid. In fact, they'd prefer you to think that, to underestimate them.

I don't uniformly think that they favor the rich at all times, however. This is what I think happens, and I'd be interested in kicking it around a bit.

I think that in the end, both of the major parties tend to represent the interests of the wealthy, and that this is very often in the form of add-ons to bill. Most normal such business is therefore "under the radar". Did you ever hear of the carried interest exemption before it came under scrutiny in 2007?

But to obtain power in this nation you must be elected, and say what one will, I think that most elections are valid. If they are fixed, then they are paying way too much in campaign contributions to justify an already decided outcome. So what happens is that each candidate approaches an election as a demonstration to moneyed interests of their access to power. They are granted power by the fact of election.

Now that they have access to power for 2, 4 or 6 year terms, they bid out their services to interests that can benefit them, one way or another.

But how does one get elected? In the US it's by promising something that the majority of voters within a particular political boundary like, and they therefore vote for you over an opponent who does not make as many promises, or as convincingly.

It's important to note here that the candidate is perfectly willing to keep the promises so long as they do not alienate the interests of the moneyed. So they can promise and deliver services that are funded by taxes, that certain moneyed interested are exempted from, or they can fail to deliver the promises, claiming that they intended to, but were thwarted by opponents.

The moneyed interests also know this, and it doesn't matter to them so long as their interests are served.

Nor are the moneyed interests monolithic; some interests, such as manufacturing, have less clout with the elected officials than do, say, banking. So there's actually a degree of warfare and competition between the moneyed interests.

So I'd say that an example of a promise to essentially purchase votes was the recent forgiveness of student debt, coming as it did 6 months before a mid-term. This seems like a fairly obvious attempt to motivated young, middle class or less, college educated adults to vote for a particular party.

Too, loosening immigration plays to the interests of those looking for cheaper labor, and at the same time caters to the emotions of many voters who are ethnically or economically related to the immigrants.

In only rare cases are the undifferentiated voters actually represented; more often they receive benefit as a by-product of a benefit for the moneyed classes; it's what figurative falls off the table, and if you're quick, you can get some of these crumbs. This would be the case for someone like me benefiting from the decision to retain the capital gains step up of basis on the death of the owner.

So really, you cannot really count on electing anyone to represent your interests. They most you can hope for is that the rules as you've learned and mastered them, do not change, or if they do, to learn the new rules and adapt to them as best you can, in any way that you can.
 
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The main reason that 'socialism' is unworkable is that people are not altruistic clones. Sure, they may go along with it for a while, but when the old push/shove appears, it's what-do-I-feel-is-best-for-me-and-mine?

Wolf packs have a hierarchy, who eats first/best, and who eats last; grazing animals have been known to fight over food; plants will emit toxicity or will cut off sunlight to other growing species.

Sure, people might/will be cooperative & charitable when things are going well, but when the situation turns sour, with few exceptions, it's dog-eat-canine, either overtly or clandestinely.
 
Nemo2 said:
The main reason that 'socialism' is unworkable is that people are not altruistic clones. Sure, they may go along with it for a while, but when the old push/shove appears, it's what-do-I-feel-is-best-for-me-and-mine?
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Well, it’s very clear to me that you have the standard, false view of socialism that has been cultivated by US anticommunist propaganda for 70 years. If we just see and read what is prepared for us to see and read, that is the result. To actually know what it is one must look into the horse’s mouth and see. HERE’s one of many sources, and it isn’t even the best.

Nemo2 said:
Wolf packs have a hierarchy, who eats first/best, and who eats last; grazing animals have been known to fight over food; plants will emit toxicity or will cut off sunlight to other growing species.

Sure, people might/will be cooperative & charitable when things are going well, but when the situation turns sour, with few exceptions, it's dog-eat-canine, either overtly or clandestinely.
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Don’t you think that is/would be true of the USA too? We’ve seen some glimpses of it during COVID and the insurrection.
 
I can't believe this discussion is still going.

There would not be a single economy on the planet that is either pure capitalism or pure socialism.
Most are a blend of both. It's horses for courses. For some aspects of society socialism is the answer, for others, let the market prevail.

Public schooling is an example of socialism that aims for basic education for everyone. Before there were public schools many children were not sent to school at all. They learnt what they could from their often unschooled parents and went to work at age 10. Slightly better off parents sent their children to dame schools where they learnt to read and write and the girls learnt manners, deportment and how to set the table properly. Then they also went to work around the age of 13 or stayed at home as home helpers. My mother in law went to one such school. MIL then went to work in a cigarette factory cutting the stems out of the tobacco leaf.

Do people really want to revert to the days when there were no public schools, transport, libraries or hospitals?

Of course not, but such public amenities must be paid for. The options are fee for service, tolls (capitalism) or income taxes (socialism).

Taxation if by far the fairest way to provide public services and amenities. You cannot do it by relying on the philanthropy of the wealthy.
 
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Senter said:
Well, it’s very clear to me that you have the standard, false view of socialism that has been cultivated by US anticommunist propaganda for 70 years. If we just see and read what is prepared for us to see and read, that is the result. To actually know what it is one must look into the horse’s mouth and see. HERE’s one of many sources, and it isn’t even the best.


Don’t you think that is/would be true of the USA too? We’ve seen some glimpses of it during COVID and the insurrection.
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1) I don't know about "US anticommunist propaganda' but I have visited somewhere in the region of 84 countries, so I don't consider myself totally sheltered from reality.

2) The Red Phoenix, yeah, right.

3) 'Insurrection' That was as close to an insurrection as the Afghanistan debacle was to a 'success'.
 
Remy said:
Found this interesting. My mother told me West Germany purposely sent their TV signals to the east. But apparently children in schools were asked if their parent's watched West German TV. It's long gone, thankfully. If North Korea could just go.

The East German schools where 'children were educated to lie' | CNN
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"... half his classmates gone, having fled with their families to the West."

Funny that we never heard about 'families fleeing to the East' to embrace the wonders of leftism....wonder why?
 
Henry VI, Part 2: Act 4, scene 2

Jack Cade: "Be brave, then, for your captain is brave and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven halfpenny loaves sold for a penny. The three-hooped pot shall have ten hoops, and I will make it felony to drink small beer. All the realm shall be in common, and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass. And when I am king, as king I will be......."

That Bill Shakespeare.....ahead of his time, eh?
 
Nemo2 said:
"... half his classmates gone, having fled with their families to the West."

Funny that we never heard about 'families fleeing to the East' to embrace the wonders of leftism....wonder why?
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Rhetorical question and a rather silly one at that.

Leftism is a new term to me. Does it imply being supportive of socialism in a free society?
Or, are you suggesting this term implies card carrying Communist?

East Germany under Communism was not free. The wall was to keep people in, not to prevent people from entering the country. It was an impoverished economy before the wall came down so why would anyone want to travel there after that unless it was to buy property cheaply and seek economic opportunities.

I would guess that some West Germans may have grabbed any economic opportunities that freedom delivered.

However, I maintain that communism and socialism are not the same thing at all.
I do not understand why the word 'socialism' puts the fear of the Almighty into so many people's minds. It does not mean that people lose personal freedom but it does require everyone to shoulder some responsibility for their less well off fellow citizens, depending on our ability to do so.
 

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