What is socialism?

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Senter said:
First recognize that a new economic and political system will never be abruptly installed “overnight” anywhere. Such a transition will take time. (Marx brilliantly mentioned this in “A Critique of the Gotha Programme”.) And during that time the capitalist class will use every trick and means they have to stop, prevent, and sabotage socialism and return to the capitalist system. And that is “kinda-sorta” what happened in every case so far (and for a reason that is now understood) with the possible exceptions of Cuba and Laos.

So at this time, no worker-owned, worker-controlled economic system is the dominant system in any country. Even Cuba says they’re working on it as they make incremental progress after 60 years.
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Perhaps it is the socialists who are using "every trick and means they have" to undermine capitalist systems.

Perhaps there are no true socialist societies because people don't want to live in them.
 

JimBob1952 said:
Oh Jesus. The Red Phoenix? Really?

What is the true view of socialism? The USSR in its glory days? China? Cuba? North Korea? Venezuela?
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https://www.socialism101.com/basic

JimBob1952 said:
Socialism (government ownership of the means of production) is an inherently flawed economic system that has never worked anywhere. And please don't point to Sweden or Denmark, which are free capitalist countries with strong social safety nets.
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I’ll be smart enough to recognize that the Nordic countries are capitalist if you will be smart enough to recognize that your definition of socialism (government ownership of the means of production) is a standard, ready-made bit of capitalist propaganda that requires a little more investigation. What you don’t seem to know is that Lenin, in his presentation of his “NEP”, talked about what you described and called it “state capitalism” since the relationship of employer to employee remains that of capitalism.

JimBob1952 said:
Free market capitalism as practiced in the US has many failings and needs more regulation and more reform. But please don't talk about socialism and expect anyone to take you seriously.
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AH! A more polite form of the American taboo against socialism! …. denigrate the willingness to discuss it but avoid any attempt to refute the facts! Cute. But it’s really just another form of the attempt to suppress discussion of the subject. …. —hence, the taboo.
 
JimBob1952 said:
Right. So it's a dream that will never happen, accompanied by tyranny, poverty and misery. Sounds great! Where can I sign up?
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Marxist analysis has nothing to do with what happened in Stalin's Russia: it's like blaming Jesus Christ for the Inquisition in Spain.
 
Senter said:
https://www.socialism101.com/basic


I’ll be smart enough to recognize that the Nordic countries are capitalist if you will be smart enough to recognize that your definition of socialism (government ownership of the means of production) is a standard, ready-made bit of capitalist propaganda that requires a little more investigation. What you don’t seem to know is that Lenin, in his presentation of his “NEP”, talked about what you described and called it “state capitalism” since the relationship of employer to employee remains that of capitalism.


AH! A more polite form of the American taboo against socialism! …. denigrate the willingness to discuss it but avoid any attempt to refute the facts! Cute. But it’s really just another form of the attempt to suppress discussion of the subject. …. —hence, the taboo.
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Senter said:
Marxist analysis has nothing to do with what happened in Stalin's Russia: it's like blaming Jesus Christ for the Inquisition in Spain.
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"Marxist analysis?" Theory versus reality? I'll take reality, any day.

Your Socialism 101 text is a hilarious mash-up of exaggerations, lies and half-truths. Sort of like, well, religion.
 
Nemo2 said:
"... half his classmates gone, having fled with their families to the West."

Funny that we never heard about 'families fleeing to the East' to embrace the wonders of leftism....wonder why?
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I know. The Utopia! My mother said when we were in East Germany that she heard a woman ask someone "where did you get the bananas?" I guess they were not easy to find. Bananas everywhere here. I remember dreary and oppressive.
 
Senter said:
More taboo language.
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First, Senter, you're new here, so welcome to SF.

Second, you have linked us to websites which post speeches by Stalin and which call the US intervention in Korea in 1950 an attempt to overthrow a socialist regime (although maybe even you would admit that the North Koreans invaded South Korea and not the other way around).

For me, that goes beyond rational discourse and into some sort of la-la land. Would I take seriously someone who posted speeches by Hitler? Who said that the Japanese were right to attack Pearl Harbor? Why should I worry about what you call "taboo language?" What does that even mean?

Again, welcome to SF, and welcome to one of its most useful features, the "ignore" button.
 
Capitalism is great... if you're born rich. If you're working class, good luck getting ahead!

That hasn't always been the case in the U.S., though. It's just in the past 40 or so years that it changed. It used to be that anyone with the motivation and ability could go to college and make something of themselves, or you could work your way up in a company... even in a factory, and achieve the American ream. Not any more.
 
JimBob1952 said:
First, Senter, you're new here, so welcome to SF.

Second, you have linked us to websites which post speeches by Stalin and which call the US intervention in Korea in 1950 an attempt to overthrow a socialist regime (although maybe even you would admit that the North Koreans invaded South Korea and not the other way around).

For me, that goes beyond rational discourse and into some sort of la-la land. Would I take seriously someone who posted speeches by Hitler? Who said that the Japanese were right to attack Pearl Harbor? Why should I worry about what you call "taboo language?" What does that even mean?

Again, welcome to SF, and welcome to one of its most useful features, the "ignore" button.
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HUH?

I’d like very much for you to point me to any link I posted to a website of speeches by Stalin-the-butcher. The rest of your comments are a mystery to me.

Regarding the taboo I mentioned, look back at my posts in this thread searching for “taboo” because I explained it twice I believe.
 
SeniorBen said:
Capitalism is great... if you're born rich. If you're working class, good luck getting ahead!

That hasn't always been the case in the U.S., though. It's just in the past 40 or so years that it changed. It used to be that anyone with the motivation and ability could go to college and make something of themselves, or you could work your way up in a company... even in a factory, and achieve the American ream. Not any more.
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Which is why no one wants to move here. Oh, wait, I'm sorry, there are millions of people trying to enter both legally and illegally? They must not have gotten the memo.

There are literally millions of people who have come here in the last 40 years from places like South Korea, Vietnam and India who have not only survived but flourished here. All it takes is hard work, combined with a respect for education and a supportive family structure. Unfortunately many native-born Americans have instead embraced sloth, ignorance, crime, obesity, illegitimacy, computer games and substance abuse as the way forward.
 
Senter said:
HUH?

I’d like very much for you to point me to any link I posted to a website of speeches by Stalin-the-butcher. The rest of your comments are a mystery to me.

Regarding the taboo I mentioned, look back at my posts in this thread searching for “taboo” because I explained it twice I believe.
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From your beloved Red Phoenix:

HOME › HISTORY › STALIN: “ON THE DEATH OF LENIN” (A SPEECH DELIVERED AT THE SECOND ALL-UNION CONGRESS OF SOVIETS)

Stalin: “On The Death Of Lenin” (A Speech Delivered at the Second All-union Congress of Soviets)​

BY THE RED PHOENIX on APRIL 22, 2019
 
JimBob1952 said:
From your beloved Red Phoenix:

HOME › HISTORY › STALIN: “ON THE DEATH OF LENIN” (A SPEECH DELIVERED AT THE SECOND ALL-UNION CONGRESS OF SOVIETS)

Stalin: “On The Death Of Lenin” (A Speech Delivered at the Second All-union Congress of Soviets)​

BY THE RED PHOENIX on APRIL 22, 2019
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But I ignored that entry on the website. I’m sure you would agree that no one who is guilty of a transgression however serious as the publishing of that article is for “Red Phoenix”, could be identified as 100% wrong on all things. I quoted and referenced what I agree with. Maybe referencing that website is not a good idea due to “sensitive” people tending to generalize, so I’ll be sure to delete it from my list. (The truth is that I just found “Red Phoenix” in the last few days and haven’t had time to explore it fully.)

But if you decide to comment on what I said rather than what else you can find on websites, I’ll be happy to defend and justify anything I say using more acceptable sources.
 
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Senter said:
But I ignored that entry on the website. I’m sure you would agree that no one who is guilty of a transgression however serious as the publishing of that article is for “Red Phoenix”, could be identified as 100% wrong on all things. I quoted and referenced what I agree with. Maybe referencing that website is not a good idea due to “sensitive” people tending to generalize, so I’ll be sure to delete it from my list.

But if you decide to comment on what I said rather than what else you can find on websites, I’ll be happy to defend and justify anything I say using more acceptable sources.
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I'm sure you will be happy to defend and justify anything you say. However, I haven't got time for Marxist-Leninist cranks, so welcome to Ignoreland.
 
I'm going to raise a bit of history here that predates the Russian revolutions. Many Australians have never heard of this failed attempt at forming a socialist utopia in Paraguay in 1893.

The Unfortunate Australian Utopia In Paraguay​


“All Utopias / are castles in the air or counsels of despair.” —Robert Bridges, The Testament of Beauty

In A Nutshell​


In 1893, 220 Australians sailed out of Sydney to start a new life in Paraguay. Their settlement, named New Australia, was to be a “socialist utopia,” and went about as well as anything bearing that description, quickly abandoning its founding principles and even splitting in two. Today, a substantial number of Paraguayan Australians still exist and continue to maintain some of their heritage.

The Whole Bushel​

The story of New Australia begins with a financial collapse in Argentina, which prompted economic depression in Australia. This saw Queensland shearers, facing cuts to already poor wages, decide to strike, and they were promptly joined by other bush workers. Despite holding out for several months, the protest was broken with the intervention of British troops and the arrest of union leaders.

Some of the workers (who gave up their hopes for an egalitarian, worker’s Australia on the back of their failure) were drawn to the ideas of William Lane, an English journalist. (Other workers coalesced into the Australian Labor Party, which, with the benefit of hindsight, was by far the better option.) Lane proposed seeking a new start in South America and was swamped with some 2,000 prospective colonists. Initially rebuffed by Argentina, the scheme was welcomed by Paraguay, which was still severely depopulated from the War of the Triple Alliance in 1864–70 (this saw the country fight the combined forces of Argentina, Brazil, and Uruguay, and lose up to 90 percent of its male population), and they were offered 185,000 acres of land.

The first group of settlers arrived in the Paraguayan capital of Asuncion on September 22, 1893 and arrived at the site of their settlement after a grueling six-week trek. Here they were bedeviled by jaguars that stalked the camp and by parasites that burrowed into their shoes and laid eggs in the soles of their feet. After arrival of the first full complement of colonists, things began to fall apart, with Lane’s leadership increasingly unpopular. He tried to ban alcohol and inter-relations with natives, which soon saw dissent tear the settlement apart.

Despite these difficulties, they boasted a smithy, butcher, and school, with the latter having a 2,000-book library, theatre, music, and cricket (we Australians know what’s important). Unfortunately, a minor incident where a man was banished for the possession of rum-laced milk was all that was needed to instigate the split. Lane, with 63 people, moved 35 kilometers (22 mi) away and founded Cosme. The 217 left behind in New Australia abandoned the colony’s socialist principles and divided up the land.

Incredibly, Cosme lasted until 1909, but Lane had given up a decade earlier, going on to become editor of the New Zealand Herald. A trickle of immigrants came in over the following few years but most returned home. The “most,” however, is important—some eight families remained, and today their descendants number at around 2,000, with names like Wood, Smith, Jones, Murray, and Cadogan. They have mostly abandoned English, instead speaking Spanish or the local language Guarani, but there are some tangible links to the past.

The site of New Australia has somehow become known as New London, but a local village school retains the name “New Australia” and hoists an Australian flag. There is also the occasional set of blond or red hair and blue eyes; a Queenslander-style house; and memories of those who left to fight in World War I and II.

Today, however, memories are fading—Norman Wood, last of the first generation of Cosme-born Australians, died at the age of 92 in 1993, and its history is fading into secondhand, half-remembered tales.

Source - The Unfortunate Australian Utopia In Paraguay - KnowledgeNuts
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This history is a cautionary tale. Ideal societies cannot be created artificially. We can, however, chip away at social problems and improve our institutions over time through legislation. When the men of the first AIF returned from WW I they were determined to create a land fit for heroes and they set about doing just that by joining unions and forming friendly societies, and by standing for election to parliament. Australia became a better and fairer nation as a result of their efforts. Capitalism was not abolished but, for the benefit of the working man, it was tamed somewhat.
 
JimBob1952 said:
Which is why no one wants to move here. Oh, wait, I'm sorry, there are millions of people trying to enter both legally and illegally? They must not have gotten the memo.

There are literally millions of people who have come here in the last 40 years from places like South Korea, Vietnam and India who have not only survived but flourished here. All it takes is hard work, combined with a respect for education and a supportive family structure. Unfortunately many native-born Americans have instead embraced sloth, ignorance, crime, obesity, illegitimacy, computer games and substance abuse as the way forward.
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That's because Gov. Abbot and other southern state governors are telling the world that we have open borders and lots of free stuff for all who come here. People in third world countries overrun with gun violence -- with guns from the U.S. -- hear that and believe that paradise awaits them, and compared to what they're escaping, the U.S. is paradise. Everything is relative.
 
SeniorBen said:
That's because Gov. Abbot and other southern state governors are telling the world that we have open borders and lots of free stuff for all who come here. People in third world countries overrun with gun violence -- with guns from the U.S. -- hear that and believe that paradise awaits them, and compared to what they're escaping, the U.S. is paradise. Everything is relative.
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You completely ignored the fact that many people from Asia and elsewhere have migrated here and done very well over the last 40 years.

Your comment about Abbott and other governors is a regurgitated administration talking point, trying to deflect blame for the chaos on the southern border. Border security is a federal responsibility, and it has been criminally neglected.

But you know that.
 
JimBob1952 said:
From your beloved Red Phoenix:

HOME › HISTORY › STALIN: “ON THE DEATH OF LENIN” (A SPEECH DELIVERED AT THE SECOND ALL-UNION CONGRESS OF SOVIETS)

Stalin: “On The Death Of Lenin” (A Speech Delivered at the Second All-union Congress of Soviets)​

BY THE RED PHOENIX on APRIL 22, 2019
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You’re a real case. Can you find where I said everything on that website is true, or that I “love” it? No. So why are you being a jerk? I dealt with all that in post 393.

You may not believe anything on that website or any socialist website has any validity but some people here wanted to discuss the subject with civility. But it looks like you effectively enforced the taboo against discussion of it. Forget it. I have you on “ignore”.
 
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