What is socialism?

[Sippican]

Although it is true that the wealthy pay more overall, it overlooks the effect of payroll taxes, which are far more of a burden on the lower income earner.

• Although slightly more than half of a U.S. worker’s payroll tax burden is paid by their employer, the worker ultimately pays this tax through lower take-home pay. Before accounting for state and local sales taxes, the U.S. tax wedge—the tax burden that a single average wage earner faces—was 29.8 percent of pretax earnings in 2019, adding up to $18,368 in taxes.

https://taxfoundation.org/us-tax-burden-on-labor-2020/

Americans with less than five-figure incomes pay an effective payroll tax rate of 14.1 percent, while those making seven-figure incomes or more pay just 1.9 percent.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/5-little-known-facts-about-taxes-and-inequality-in-america/

So your only measurement is payroll tax? And you justify your position with 'cut and paste' from Socialist Left web sites? Successful people pay much more in taxes, why? Simple, they spend more, they buy more, they make more charitable contributions, they employ people. Those metrics don't show up in your rush to judgement. Just remember, those of you that drink the kool-aid never think of the effects of demeaning successful people and badgering them into paying more and call it a 'fair share' to cloak the real reason the Socialist administration wants, no needs, to insert wedges between classes.

 

[oldlongwalker]

So your only measurement is payroll tax? And you justify your position with 'cut and paste' from Socialist Left web sites? Successful people pay much more in taxes, why? Simple, they spend more, they buy more, they make more charitable contributions, they employ people. Those metrics don't show up in your rush to judgement. Just remember, those of you that drink the kool-aid never think of the effects of demeaning successful people and badgering them into paying more and call it a 'fair share' to cloak the real reason the Socialist administration wants, no needs, to insert wedges between classes.

Why the hostility? I think you might find more sympathy with your views elsewhere.

 

[perChance]

Why the hostility? I think you might find more sympathy with your views elsewhere.

Perhaps Sippican wasn't looking for sympathy. Do you only want to hear from those that share your views? I thought everyone was welcome on this forum.

 

[oldlongwalker]

Perhaps Sippican wasn't looking for sympathy. Do you only want to hear from those that share your views? I thought everyone was welcome on this forum.

Sympathy: agreement with or approval of an opinion or aim; a favorable attitude.
"I have some sympathy for this view"

I am all for a discussion of different views. It doesn't need to be hostile.

 

[Knight]

The concept of democratic socialism sounds good but converting America's capitalist system will take some work.

Change like free medical care for everyone paid for by taxes generated from employee income & manufacturing could hit a snag. The snag being those that cause greater need for medical care due to smoking, drug use, alcohol use, glutony. I think the free part might give way to those types having to pay an additional fee.

Then there are what is happening now and has always been. Lazy people not performing causing other workers to pick up the slack. That gets old pretty quick, so it's possible they would be fired becomming more dependent on the new system that provides care for all citizens.

Transitioning without addressing the problems of human nature of trying to get something for free at the expense of others would be interesting.

 

[Senter]

And there it is......Socialism at its core. Attack the person not the dialog. So you did read Saul Alinksy's books.

But … but … but you’re not a socialist and still you attacked me in SEVEN lines of text with ZERO comments about the subject. Actually it’s a fairly good example of the taboo against discussion of socialism as you try to deflect the discussion and intimidate me with insults. You’ll find I don’t intimidate easily.

 

[Senter]

Perhaps Sippican wasn't looking for sympathy. Do you only want to hear from those that share your views? I thought everyone was welcome on this forum.

What did sippican say on the subject at hand? Or did he just attack “oldlongwalker”?

 

[Senter]

The concept of democratic socialism sounds good but converting America's capitalist system will take some work.

You’re more optimistic than I am.

Change like free medical care for everyone paid for by taxes generated from employee income & manufacturing could hit a snag. The snag being those that cause greater need for medical care due to smoking, drug use, alcohol use, glutony. I think the free part might give way to those types having to pay an additional fee.

Other countries, if I have it right, have public programs that publish educational "short takes” that inform and encourage wise choices and make smoking expensive and “inconvenient” with measurable results. Some have banned use of hydrogenated and/or high fructose corn syrup oil in foods and the result, again, if I remember right, has been a reduction in heart disease and obesity. I think there is room for such improvement.

Then there are what is happening now and has always been. Lazy people not performing causing other workers to pick up the slack. That gets old pretty quick, so it's possible they would be fired becomming more dependent on the new system that provides care for all citizens.

Do you have any actual numbers to illustrate the size of this problem? My recollection is that it is very small and standard for all civilizations.

Transitioning without addressing the problems of human nature of trying to get something for free at the expense of others would be interesting.

This is a good one, because the question always comes to my mind “what are we doing about this ‘human nature’ and its affects now?"

So tell me, what are we doing about this ‘human nature’ and its affects now?

 

[SeniorBen]

So your only measurement is payroll tax? And you justify your position with 'cut and paste' from Socialist Left web sites? Successful people pay much more in taxes, why? Simple, they spend more, they buy more, they make more charitable contributions, they employ people. Those metrics don't show up in your rush to judgement. Just remember, those of you that drink the kool-aid never think of the effects of demeaning successful people and badgering them into paying more and call it a 'fair share' to cloak the real reason the Socialist administration wants, no needs, to insert wedges between classes.

Rich people used to pay a tax rate of 90%. That was during a time of great economic prosperity for everyone. Now, only the rich get richer and everyone else gets left behind, thanks to "trickle-down" economics.

 

[Knight]

So tell me, what are we doing about this ‘human nature’ and its affects now?

We are doing nothing & society is the worse for it. I think parts would get into a political arena & that isn't allowed here.

An area of human nature that would affect free health care.
Obesity in the United States affects 100.1 million (41.9%) adults and 14.7 million (19.7%) children and accounts for approximately $147 billion in annual health care costs.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Obe...oAECsAEAwAEB2gEGCAEQARgU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

COPD affects 12.5 million Americans. It accounts for millions of emergency department visits and tens of billions in healthcare costs each year.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how...AQQ2LjE4mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp


Publishing facts are already in place & it's obvious to me that facts are ignored. As for non productive this is what I could find to support my view. It's to long to paste.

factory workers at a major global brand complemented with their payroll records (absenteeism and salary), was conducted to validate the main findings. Results of the primary analysis indicated that annual productivity loss to the organization amounted to approximately $300 m. Distraction contributed to 93.6% of the annual productivity loss of the US manufacturer, while only 6.4% resulted from health-related absenteeism, implying that distraction at work cost this organization almost 15 times more than health related absenteeism, reducing the overall return on sales by over 6 pp.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108714/

Comparing countries with lesser population than America doesn't work for me. If conversion is going to be then IMO there will be extreme chaos.

 

[perChance]

I quite often hear Canadians talking about our "free" health care. It isn't free - we pay for it with our taxes.

 

[perChance]

thanks to "trickle-down" economics.

 

[Wigglestein]

Communism with a kinder gentler name.

 

[Senter]

We are doing nothing & society is the worse for it. I think parts would get into a political arena & that isn't allowed here.

Now that’s interesting. Could you elaborate at all on how it might get into a political arena that isn’t allowed? Just a bit about what you’re thinking?

An area of human nature that would affect free health care.
Obesity in the United States affects 100.1 million (41.9%) adults and 14.7 million (19.7%) children and accounts for approximately $147 billion in annual health care costs.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Obe...oAECsAEAwAEB2gEGCAEQARgU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Again, one thing that has shown benefit is the elimination of HFCS and hydrogenated oils from foods. But that has proven to be difficult to get done in this country.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Obe...oAECsAEAwAEB2gEGCAEQARgU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

COPD affects 12.5 million Americans. It accounts for millions of emergency department visits and tens of billions in healthcare costs each year.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how...AQQ2LjE4mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

According to the Mayo Clinic, "The main cause of COPD in developed countries is tobacco smoking.” But we have a way to go to catch up to some other countries. Meanwhile, China, India, and New Zealand are all proposing to ban smoking for new generations.

This global image is interesting. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans
https://www.google.com/search?q=how...AQQ2LjE4mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Publishing facts are already in place & it's obvious to me that facts are ignored. As for non productive this is what I could find to support my view. It's to long to paste.

factory workers at a major global brand complemented with their payroll records (absenteeism and salary), was conducted to validate the main findings. Results of the primary analysis indicated that annual productivity loss to the organization amounted to approximately $300 m. Distraction contributed to 93.6% of the annual productivity loss of the US manufacturer, while only 6.4% resulted from health-related absenteeism, implying that distraction at work cost this organization almost 15 times more than health related absenteeism, reducing the overall return on sales by over 6 pp.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108714/

So the top contributors to declines in productivity are 1. casual conversations between employees (93.6% of the decline) and absenteeism due to illness (6.4%). And it looks like a $300 million loss on revenue totaling about $6 billion for about a 5% loss in potential revenue. I expect that would be an issue in any case although the conversation loss might be subject to improvement.

So your statement "Transitioning without addressing the problems of human nature of trying to get something for free at the expense of others would be interesting” leaves me wondering why we should see those numbers relating to lost productivity as something that should stop us from solving other far greater problems. I mean just COPD costs us well over $30 billion/year. - https://www.cdc.gov/copd/infographics/copd-costs.html

 

[Knight]

A few that deal with government topics that involve political kind of discussion. All will impact the ability to fund the kind of programs expected from democratic liberal policies.

Government role & impact of U S dollar losing reserve currency status.

Impact of releasing oil from the SPR.

Predictions for the future financial ability of Medicare, Medciaid, Soc. Sec. funding

Illegal immigration & the impact it is having.

Reparations. Freebies on steroids.

Tobacco & COPD. The tobacco industry could be completely eliminated in America. The U S direct manufacturing job loss & taxes generated would impact only a few states. Cigarette & Tobacco Manufacturing industry is most heavily concentrated in North Carolina, Virginia and Florida.Feb 21, 2023. But the indirect job loss would be throughout the U S. & There more likely than not tobacco & tobacco products from China would boost China's export profits. So an attempt to reduce COPD as a costly problem has a long hard road to travel befor it would not impact America's health care system.

Next was fructose. Banning use & finding suitable substitutes might work if job loss isn't a consideration for what do with the employees & communities that rely on the manufacture of fructose. Replacing the tax base & finding employment for those people will be accomplished how?

It's not simply a matter of converting because it sounds like a way to assure quality of life for everyone. For government & employees to be in control to assure everyone an equal quality of life IMO in America that isn't practical. But it does sound nice.

 

[SeniorBen]

"It's kind of hard to sell 'trickle down,' so the supply-side formula was the only way to get a tax policy that was really 'trickle down.' Supply-side is 'trickle-down' theory."
— David Stockman: former Director of the Office of Management and Budget under President Ronald Reagan

 

[perChance]

"It's kind of hard to sell 'trickle down,' so the supply-side formula was the only way to get a tax policy that was really 'trickle down.' Supply-side is 'trickle-down' theory."
— David Stockman: former Director of the Office of Management and Budget under President Ronald Reagan

From the same WiKi page: "Stockman was educated at public schools in Stevensville, Michigan. He graduated from Lakeshore High School in 1964[5] and received a BA in History from Michigan State University in 1968. He was a graduate theology student at Harvard University from 1968 to 1970."

I looked, but couldn't see 'economist' in his background.

 

[Senter]

Transitioning without addressing the problems of human nature of trying to get something for free at the expense of others would be interesting.

So tell me, what are we doing about this ‘human nature’ and its affects now?

We are doing nothing & society is the worse for it. I think parts would get into a political arena & that isn't allowed here.

Could you elaborate at all on how it might get into a political arena that isn’t allowed? Just a bit about what you’re thinking?

Gosh Knight, with your scarce quotes and non-specific wording it’s just a bit hard to be sure of what you’re referring to and it’s relevance, but I think the above is probably the correct sequence that you’re commenting on. Complete sentences are helpful whenever we can get them.

Assuming I’m correct with the above quotes, let’s go on …..

A few that deal with government topics that involve political kind of discussion. All will impact the ability to fund the kind of programs expected from democratic liberal policies.

Government role & impact of U S dollar losing reserve currency status.

Impact of releasing oil from the SPR.

Predictions for the future financial ability of Medicare, Medciaid, Soc. Sec. funding

Illegal immigration & the impact it is having.

Reparations. Freebies on steroids.

Liberal policies? Do you really think the role of the dollar in the world is determined by “liberal policies”? I want to be clear: I completely reject that as absurd. Or do you mean that the government role & the impact of the US dollar will impact the ability of the US to fund “democratic liberal policies”? That’s probably what you’re saying. In which case, what are the “democratic liberal policies” that you believe may suffer? But of course we are now getting into politics which are not well received in this forum.

So release of oil from the SPR will impact the ability to fund democratic liberal policies?

Predictions for the future financial ability of Medicare, Medciaid, Soc. Sec. funding will impact the ability to fund democratic liberal policies?

Illegal immigration & the impact it is having will impact the ability to fund democratic liberal policies?

Reparations . . . . . . . . uh . . . . . . . . . I don’t think I’m following your pathway after all.

Tobacco & COPD. The tobacco industry could be completely eliminated in America.

I think the tobacco industry is too powerful. Now they are getting away with vaping and selling to minors!

The U S direct manufacturing job loss & taxes generated would impact only a few states. Cigarette & Tobacco Manufacturing industry is most heavily concentrated in North Carolina, Virginia and Florida.Feb 21, 2023. But the indirect job loss would be throughout the U S. & There more likely than not tobacco & tobacco products from China would boost China's export profits. So an attempt to reduce COPD as a costly problem has a long hard road to travel befor it would not impact America's health care system.

Tobacco product imports can be dealt with to eliminate them if there is the will and an absence of pay-off for politicians. I don’t see the complexity.

Next was fructose.

Fructose is no more of a problem that sucrose, dextrose, glucose, or lactose. Huh?

It's not simply a matter of converting because it sounds like a way to assure quality of life for everyone. For government & employees to be in control to assure everyone an equal quality of life IMO in America that isn't practical. But it does sound nice.

Wait what? Where did the notion of government and employees assuring everyone an equal quality of life come from?

 

[SeniorBen]

From the same WiKi page: "Stockman was educated at public schools in Stevensville, Michigan. He graduated from Lakeshore High School in 1964[5] and received a BA in History from Michigan State University in 1968. He was a graduate theology student at Harvard University from 1968 to 1970."

I looked, but couldn't see 'economist' in his background.

Trickle down theory is supply side economics.

 

[SeniorBen]

"Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
~ Mark Twain

 

[perChance]

https://www.quora.com/Is-trickle-down-economics-the-same-as-supply-side?share=1

"First of all "Trickle Down Economics" is a smear term, a word used to make a good idea sound stupid and bad. In supply side economics, there is nothing about anything trickling anywhere. The "trickle down" strawman says that the idea is to give money or other benefits to the rich in the hopes that it will trickle down to the poor. Who would ever think of such an idea? Wouldn't it be better to just give to the poor directly?

The key to understanding SUPPLY side economics is in the word "supply". The way to make the poor and the workers better off in general is to provide them with a larger supply of consumer goods. This means you need to increase the productivity of labor through investment in capital. You build factories, make better manufacturing tools and machines, invest in research to find better manufacturing techniques and new products. The idea is to make the labor of the workers more productive so that more goods are produced with the same amount of labor."

 

[Sippican]

But … but … but you’re not a socialist and still you attacked me in SEVEN lines of text with ZERO comments about the subject. Actually it’s a fairly good example of the taboo against discussion of socialism as you try to deflect the discussion and intimidate me with insults. You’ll find I don’t intimidate easily.

Funny, everything is an attack to Socialists. Saul talks about that in his book. When you feel you are losing a discussion, get offended and deflect from the actual dialog. I don't care to intimidate anyone. But your feelings get hurt when I talk about a relevant topic that you can't defend...so you change the narrative. I made valid points that you couldn't defend because it didn't fit your narrative.

 

[Sippican]

"Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
~ Mark Twain

Couldn't have said it better myself!
Another saying is; "when you die, you don't know your dead, its only difficult for everyone else, Its the same way with being stupid"

 

[Senter]

Funny, everything is an attack to Socialists. Saul talks about that in his book. When you feel you are losing a discussion, get offended and deflect from the actual dialog. I don't care to intimidate anyone. But your feelings get hurt when I talk about a relevant topic that you can't defend...so you change the narrative. I made valid points that you couldn't defend because it didn't fit your narrative.

If you walk into a telephone pole because you’re looking the other way, do you blame the telephone pole?

For the benefit of others reading this, I’ll point out that it was YOU who first bitched about me “attacking” you in your post #550.

 

[ElCastor]

Communism with a liver gentler name.

AHA! The best answer to the socialism question I’ve yet to see.
Thanks!