Why do we believe in God

As many have waded in this conversation and left great opinions, I feel that this is a good topic.

Probably the most discussed topic in human history. 40 percent of the world believes in a superior being with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Many cite experiences, phenomenon, or other instances that could lead to the proof of something out there. Yet to this day, still no proof.

I myself believe that there is something more, possibly a superior being-race of beings, creator-creators. The possibilities are endless. The question that always gets me, and we had a 7 day debate in Uni about this...if God created the universe and all it entails, who created God?

We can't just say well he is omnificent, omnipresent etc. That is just a scape goat for not having an answer. Oh he just appeared did he! He violates all the laws of the universe by his appearance, but lays down all the laws for everything else? Nah, there is more to it.

Too many easy answers in this world. God just appearing, no explanation needed. The big bang-everything exploding out of nothing. Everything violating the laws of physics, nature, chemistry and the Universe in general. Hmmm.

I have noticed that many books that were not included in the Bible seem quite relevant. The council of Nicea decided what books to allow into the bible (if true). But what I find very concerning is that some of the books not allowed in are very important and very relevant. I am not a theologian by any stretch, but the Book of Enoch, Mary Magdelene, and others change things. Again how can we know if this council of Nicea was real anyway. I mean it happened in 325 ad, so...

I think there could be some creator/s that is involved in all this but it is unexplainable. Even if one was to take the Annunaki creation story as fact. Two brothers Enlil and Enki, created a slave race of humans etc. But who created Enki and Enlil? Then the ancient book of MU. The ancient race of peoples that apparently led to the creation of most of the countries in the world. All taken from ancient race of Necals(?) even prior, and a book taken from Monasteries in TIbet/Nepal. Again if real, who created them? Cause we are going back longer than anything referenced in religion. It could go on and on.

I feel the bible and God is too easy of an answer for endless questions. There is surely more to know, more out there so to speak. But to blindly follow a faith or doctrine is not something I am interested in.

I think we are all here just to enjoy the ride! So far, its a doozy!
 

Tazx said:
Probably the most discussed topic in human history. 40 percent of the world believes in a superior being with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Many cite experiences, phenomenon, or other instances that could lead to the proof of something out there. Yet to this day, still no proof.
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Many ancient spiritual traditions, including Hinduism, seem to point toward a more expansive, abstract understanding of divinity, where "God" is not so much a separate being as it is the very essence of existence or consciousness itself. In Hinduism, Brahman represents the ultimate reality or universal consciousness, while Atman refers to the individual soul or self, reflecting that divine essence within us.

The mythologies and deities in these traditions often serve as symbolic representations of cosmic principles or forces rather than literal beings. The gods of Hinduism, for example, can be seen as personifications of fundamental aspects of existence—creation, preservation, destruction, knowledge, or time. In this sense, myths function as a way to explore the complexities of the universe and human life, using narratives to express profound truths about existence that are difficult to convey through ordinary language.

This contrasts with the more anthropomorphic conception of God in some Western religions, where divinity is often depicted as a being with human-like attributes. It seems like the ancients used myth and symbolism to point toward the ineffable nature of existence itself, inviting people to engage with the mysteries of life and consciousness on a deeper, more intuitive level.
 
Tazx said:
As many have waded in this conversation and left great opinions, I feel that this is a good topic.

Probably the most discussed topic in human history. 40 percent of the world believes in a superior being with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Many cite experiences, phenomenon, or other instances that could lead to the proof of something out there. Yet to this day, still no proof.

I myself believe that there is something more, possibly a superior being-race of beings, creator-creators. The possibilities are endless. The question that always gets me, and we had a 7 day debate in Uni about this...if God created the universe and all it entails, who created God?

We can't just say well he is omnificent, omnipresent etc. That is just a scape goat for not having an answer. Oh he just appeared did he! He violates all the laws of the universe by his appearance, but lays down all the laws for everything else? Nah, there is more to it.

Too many easy answers in this world. God just appearing, no explanation needed. The big bang-everything exploding out of nothing. Everything violating the laws of physics, nature, chemistry and the Universe in general. Hmmm.

I have noticed that many books that were not included in the Bible seem quite relevant. The council of Nicea decided what books to allow into the bible (if true). But what I find very concerning is that some of the books not allowed in are very important and very relevant. I am not a theologian by any stretch, but the Book of Enoch, Mary Magdelene, and others change things. Again how can we know if this council of Nicea was real anyway. I mean it happened in 325 ad, so...

I think there could be some creator/s that is involved in all this but it is unexplainable. Even if one was to take the Annunaki creation story as fact. Two brothers Enlil and Enki, created a slave race of humans etc. But who created Enki and Enlil? Then the ancient book of MU. The ancient race of peoples that apparently led to the creation of most of the countries in the world. All taken from ancient race of Necals(?) even prior, and a book taken from Monasteries in TIbet/Nepal. Again if real, who created them? Cause we are going back longer than anything referenced in religion. It could go on and on.

I feel the bible and God is too easy of an answer for endless questions. There is surely more to know, more out there so to speak. But to blindly follow a faith or doctrine is not something I am interested in.

I think we are all here just to enjoy the ride! So far, its a doozy!
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Thank you for your post.

A belief in an all-powerful God who has always been, and always will be, requires blind faith. Without blind faith, everyone would be in the same boat as you and I, looking for the explanation in nature and science. We know that's not going to be forthcoming. Blind faith is "unquestioning belief in something, even when it's unreasonable or wrong". I'd say a being that never had a beginning qualifies as both "unreasonable and wrong". However, if you have blind faith, you simply accept.

Man has been looking to Gods to explain all kinds of wonders in the past. People have worshiped the sun, the moon, tree's, and just about everything thing, it seems. Organized religion for the masses brought about the common beliefs today. Yet as we increasingly learn more through the explorations of science, we learn that while the universe holds many secrets, it's increasingly unlikely to be a controlling being. Slowly, our beliefs are being pealed back.

I mentioned early, but will state again - I find no proof of a God in the Bible itself. Which is why quotes from the Bible must be some of the thinnest "evidence" when trying to explain a belief. For the Bible to be convincing within itself, then what's in it must be validated. That's what evidence is all about. To believe the story of a God creating us in his image, you have to first accept God is a being. If you don't do that, then all you're left with are ancient stories. Some of those stories are based on real events, some not, but after all, it was written over a 1500 year time frame.

Quite how quoting the Bible alone is supposed to be convincing, I don't know.

The truth is, there is no complete resolution on either side of the fence. Believing a God requires blind faith, and that's simply not scientific. Believing in the scientific path means you have to accept that things you thought you knew by way of the Bible become unknowns. Either way, you lack critical information. The difference is, one of them is tirelessly working every day to answer those fundamental questions.
 

Please note that there is absolutely no statistical evidence to support the idea that the vast majority of those who believe in a creator did so merely because of some fantastic experience that they had undergone when they had been atheists or agnostics. In fact, I have never heard one testimony ever provided to support that notion, neither personally, nor at church, nor in literature nor on the YouTube channels.

So it seems to constitute a hasty conclusion reached without any evidence or else with insufficient evidence which lead to an overgeneralization.


If indeed there is statistical evidence, then it should be presented in order to elevate the claim from mere personal opinion or conjecture to the level of established fact.

Yes, the people who provide testimony at church for how they were converted do mention how there lives were changed for the better when they decided to become Christians or members of any other religion. Some even claim that miracles convinced them to join. However, that is not equivalent to saying that they had been atheists prior to their joining that church, or that they are providing testimony for the reason why they believe in the existence or a creator.

Instead, the vast majority were believers in a creator before they became religious or became members of any particular religious organization and their testimony revolves around how certain experiences influenced their decision to approach a God whom they had already assumed existed but had never approached in that fervently religious manner.
 
There is absolutely nothing blind in detecting intelligent design and reaching the logical conclusion of a creator. In stark contrast, there is plenty of blind faith in atheists concluding that life emerged from chaotic soup of chemicals after it coded DNA, assembled molecular machines to read and carry out its instructions and repair it, and then glibly claiming that this must surely be happening all over the universe while lacking observational and experimental evidence to back it up. Now that is the epitome of fanatically motivated blind faith.

So no, we don't believe merely because the Bible tells us so.

Also, I don't quote scriptures to prove the existence of God.
 
Radrook said:
Please note that there is absolutely no statistical evidence to support the idea that the vast majority of those who believe in a creator did so merely because of some fantastic experience that they had undergone when they had been atheists or agnostics. In fact, I have never heard one testimony ever provided to support that notion, neither personally, nor at church, nor in literature nor on the YouTube channels.
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That's odd, because the Internet is full of examples, what search terms are you using? CS Lewis (the author) is an example. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "merely". If you live in the UK or US, it's impossible to avoid bumping into Christianity during your formative years. Be it through the culture or learned at home. There is a list of converts on Wiki you might want to investigate further.

SOURCE: The Most Reluctant Convert - C.S. Lewis Institute
List of converts to Christianity from nontheism - Wikipedia


Radrook said:
There is absolutely nothing blind in detecting intelligent design and reaching the logical conclusion of a creator.
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Again you use the word "logical". Can you please explain this logic in more detail? I see nothing logical in it. And who is this "creator"? I assume God, but if so, what is logical about believing someone who had no beginning, who looks over everyone all the time? To say it's logical, you should be able to explain the steps without any assumptions, right?

Radrook said:
In stark contrast, there is plenty of blind faith in atheists concluding that life emerged from chaotic soup of chemicals after it coded DNA, assembled molecular machines to read and carry out its instructions and repair it, and then glibly claiming that this must surely be happening all over the universe while lacking observational and experimental evidence to back it up. Now that is the epitome of fanatically motivated blind faith.
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Let's break that down. Firstly, nothing is glib. A belief is a belief, you sour your message when you throw in words like glib.

No-one coded DNA. DNA evolved over time. We didn't start there. It started with very basic mechanisms known as RNA. There was life before DNA, which was late to arrive in evolutionary terms. The move to DNA required lots of proteins to come about, along with enzymes. DNA is a mechanism for replication, which cells were doing prior to DNA's existence (else there wouldn't have been life, and therefore DNA, at all).

When you think about it, replicating itself is a fundamental requirement, or else something simply does not exist. That, over time, an efficient method evolved to do this stands to reason. Still, not all of DNA is a coding, there are also non-coding regions. We tend to forget or ignore that the Earth was around before there was any sign of life. Although some believers think the planet is 6000 or so years, rather than billions of years.

As for happening all over the universe, it has a mathematical argument to suggest there's a probability greater than zero. Since we've no evidence at the moment, we lean into the probability, which is not to say it's a certainty, only that there's a chance. Anyway, I'm sure you're familiar with the Drake Equation.

Also, "fanatically"? Really. Can't a belief just be a belief?
 
The universe is huge and extensive far beyond the ability of the human species to comprehend. We are certainly a very arrogant animal. Hubris is our middle name! We look at reality from an anthropocentric point of view, that puts humans at the center of everything. My belief is that if we were wiped out of existence tomorrow, the universe would continue going on just fine without us. All concepts of God, Biblical or otherwise, make the same mistake. It’s not about us!
 
spectratg said:
The universe is huge and extensive far beyond the ability of the human species to comprehend. We are certainly a very arrogant animal. Hubris is our middle name! We look at reality from an anthropocentric point of view, that puts humans at the center of everything. My belief is that if we were wiped out of existence tomorrow, the universe would continue going on just fine without us. All concepts of God, Biblical or otherwise, make the same mistake. It’s not about us!
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True, and we don't yet know the extent of it. Due to the way we detect celestial bodies, we're limited to the speed of light in determining what's out there (always remembering that what we see in the sky at night is the past, not the present.) It's a little odd (imo) that God made objects that require high tech to see, don't you think?

Still, our lack of significance when it comes to the universe is a very sobering thought.
 
Vaug Said:

That's odd, because the Internet is full of examples, what search terms are you using? CS Lewis (the author) is an example. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "merely". If you live in the UK or US, it's impossible to avoid bumping into Christianity during your formative years. Be it through the culture or learned at home. There is a list of converts on Wiki you might want to investigate further.

SOURCE: The Most Reluctant Convert - C.S. Lewis Institute
List of converts to Christianity from nontheism - Wikipedia
That solitary example does not prove the claim that all former converts to theism were formerly atheists, and had needed a miracle to believe in a creator. Such scanty evidence is insufficient to warrant such a claim
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Vaug Said
Again you use the word "logical". Can you please explain this logic in more detail? I see nothing logical in it. And who is this "creator"? I assume God, but if so, what is logical about believing someone who had no beginning, who looks over everyone all the time? To say it's logical, you should be able to explain the steps without any assumptions, right?

Please note that the identity of the creator is irrelevant just as the identity of the one imagined responsible for the universe being a holograph is irrelevant to their idea. Would you reject their idea because they can't tell you who the holograph maker is or anything about his nature? All that should be relevant is that the universe shows evidence of being a holograph-being created by someone.

Illogical you say? Not at all, The logic of detecting a mind in coded information is self-evident since very obviously Information does not code itself. Coded information is always traceable to a coding intellect. That you refuse to acknowledge or constantly claim total inability to perceive such an obvious fact is irrelevant to the issue.
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Vaug said:
Let's break that down. Firstly, nothing is glib. A belief is a belief, you sour your message when you throw in words like glib.

Although I don't agree that a beliefs can never be expressed in a glib manner, you have my apologies. Will be more careful from now on. :)
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Vaug Said

No-one coded DNA. DNA evolved over time. We didn't start there. It started with very basic mechanisms known as RNA. There was life before DNA, which was late to arrive in evolutionary terms. The move to DNA required lots of proteins to come about, along with enzymes. DNA is a mechanism for replication, which cells were doing prior to DNA's existence (else there wouldn't have been life, and therefore DNA, at all).
Pushing the problem back to the RNA molecule doesn't resolve the glaring fundamental flaw in your reasoning. It only transfers your claim to another location while leaving the horrendously logical flaw intact.
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Furthermore and very significantly, your RNA excuse has now been dumped by scientists:
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Scientists Find Evidence That Life on Earth Didn't Only Originate From RNA​
But now a team of chemists from the Scripps Research Institute in California has found evidence that RNA wouldn't have been able to sustainably give rise to DNA, leading them to suggest that the two molecules might have actually formed at the same time.

"Even if you believe in a RNA-only world, you have to believe in something that existed with RNA to help it move forward," said lead researcher Ramanarayanan Krishnamurthy.

"Why not think of RNA and DNA rising together, rather than trying to convert RNA to DNA by means of some fantastic chemistry at a prebiotic stage?
Scientists Find Evidence That Life on Earth Didn't Only Originate From RNA
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Vaug Said:
When you think about it, replicating itself is a fundamental requirement, or else something simply does not exist. That, over time, an efficient method evolved to do this stands to reason. Still, not all of DNA is a coding, there are also non-coding regions. We tend to forget or ignore that the Earth was around before there was any sign of life. Although some believers think the planet is 6000 or so years, rather than billions of years.

No forgetfulness nor ignoring. I don't believe Earth has been around only 6000 years. I simply don't agree with your mathematical assessment.
​
Also, that not all DNA is coding is irrelevant to the fact that it is a code and according to information science, a code demands a coder. Or are you claiming that information scientists don't know what they are talking about? . ​

​
Neither have you explained exactly why you stubbornly adhere to one standard for codes discovered by SETI, and to a totally different standard for any code discovered in nature.​

​
After all, both codes indicate the same thing-a coding mind. In fact, the DNA code indicates it in a far more convincing fashion, since it isn't merely a sequence of numbers, but includes meticulously arranged instruction on how to assemble the most complex computer in the universe, the human brain. Which of course, renders the atheist claim that it was mindlessly slapped together ridiculous. ​
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Vaug Claimed:
As for abiogenesis happening all over the universe, it has a mathematical argument to suggest there's a probability greater than zero. Since we've no evidence at the moment, we lean into the probability, which is not to say it's a certainty, only that there's a chance. Anyway, I'm sure you're familiar with the Drake Equation

Any equation based on abiogenesis is defective by default because it is based on nothing more than wishful thinking, and goes completely contrary to how things are observed to function. You see, observation tells us that life always emerges from previous life. It never emerges spontaneously from non life.
Yet abiogenesis proposes that to be a common universal occurrence contrary to this overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Which in turn goes contrary to the scientific method of requiring evidence in instead of preferring conjecture.
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Vaug Said
Also, "fanatically"? Really. Can't a belief just be a belief?

A belief earns the appellation of fanatical if it totally ignores logic which your abiogenesis idea does par excellence as the scientist speaking in this video below poignantly proves.

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Tazx said:
As many have waded in this conversation and left great opinions, I feel that this is a good topic.

Probably the most discussed topic in human history. 40 percent of the world believes in a superior being with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Many cite experiences, phenomenon, or other instances that could lead to the proof of something out there. Yet to this day, still no proof.

I myself believe that there is something more, possibly a superior being-race of beings, creator-creators. The possibilities are endless. The question that always gets me, and we had a 7 day debate in Uni about this...if God created the universe and all it entails, who created God?

We can't just say well he is omnificent, omnipresent etc. That is just a scape goat for not having an answer. Oh he just appeared did he! He violates all the laws of the universe by his appearance, but lays down all the laws for everything else? Nah, there is more to it.

Too many easy answers in this world. God just appearing, no explanation needed. The big bang-everything exploding out of nothing. Everything violating the laws of physics, nature, chemistry and the Universe in general. Hmmm.

I have noticed that many books that were not included in the Bible seem quite relevant. The council of Nicea decided what books to allow into the bible (if true). But what I find very concerning is that some of the books not allowed in are very important and very relevant. I am not a theologian by any stretch, but the Book of Enoch, Mary Magdelene, and others change things. Again how can we know if this council of Nicea was real anyway. I mean it happened in 325 ad, so...

I think there could be some creator/s that is involved in all this but it is unexplainable. Even if one was to take the Annunaki creation story as fact. Two brothers Enlil and Enki, created a slave race of humans etc. But who created Enki and Enlil? Then the ancient book of MU. The ancient race of peoples that apparently led to the creation of most of the countries in the world. All taken from ancient race of Necals(?) even prior, and a book taken from Monasteries in TIbet/Nepal. Again if real, who created them? Cause we are going back longer than anything referenced in religion. It could go on and on.

I feel the bible and God is too easy of an answer for endless questions. There is surely more to know, more out there so to speak. But to blindly follow a faith or doctrine is not something I am interested in.

I think we are all here just to enjoy the ride! So far, its a doozy!
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I appreciate your reply and voice much the same questions. I do think the Bible is complete without any further additions. Here again we get into the need for more information. Do these books help or make things more confusing??
What is the quest?
Are we looking for the one true God?
Will there ever be enough information to convince his creation of his existence.
Will there be a time when we can rest in his arms?
I find comfort in knowing he has my back, yet I can't definitively explain that.
Will I suffer the repercussions of my sins.....yes. but God still looks over me. Bottom line
You make me think however. I would like to hear further from you.
bob
 
VaughanJB said:
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't think the problem is on my side. I do not believe in a God due to lack of evidence. Your method of persuasion? Quotes from the Bible. That is a terribly flawed method to justify your own views. We could discuss the Bible itself, if you like, outside of this discussion, but do you seriously think that quoting the Bible is an argument? It's not. I don't believe in a God, which ought to infer to you that I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. In other words, you're not making counter arguments, you're simply repeating religious texts.

I'd also note, has you seen the length of my responses? It's not like I didn't spend a lot of time laying out my feelings/thoughts. Yet even with the length of my responses (which likely annoy many here as it is) you think I'm ignoring part of your posts. So strange.

Conversation usually goes like this: If someone misunderstands you, you clarify. If someone makes an assumption that is incorrect, you point it out and explain your point of view. I've no idea what "assumptions of ignorance about things common knowledge" refers too, sorry. I'll be honest - I think you grossly misuse the term "logic", and I have pointed it out. Still, if you don't care for the discussion, then it's all good. Rather that than have angst on the forum. And rather that than having a falling out.



I don't recall saying you only believed in a God because a book said so. When you believe in a God who has always been, and came from (apparently) nowhere, and created everything from..... goodness knows what, you're in God of the Gaps territory. Sorry, that's true.

Do you believe in the story of Adam and Eve? Talking bushes? Parting of the Red Sea? They only way to explain such things is to employ bland faith. They're examples of magic (that you might call miracles). But can these things be demonstrated scientifically?

I have stated in this thread, more than once, that I am not attacking anyone, or anyone's faith. This is simply an exchange of views. You believe differently, and we should both accept it. But if you thought your approach of quoting Bible verses was going to change anything, you were sorely mistaken. I can't claim to have read all of the Bible, but I've read chunks of it. I was introduced to it aged 5. Back in those days, all school days started with saying the Lords Prayer. Religious Education was part of my curriculum up to aged 16. I've researched the topic since then, of course. I like the music. And so on.

However, it's true that you and I don't see eye-to-eye on almost anything on this topic. I've sadly, learned little from it. I really don't require a preacher telling me Bible verses, that even Christians accept were words written by men (albeit, Christians believes they were effectively inspired by God). The Bible as we know it today was written by 40 authors over 1500 years. It's a good book, but it's not evidence of a God within itself. You might claim it is, but how do I differentiate great fiction from the inspired word of God?
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All good points. So thank you. A bible study for non believers would be a waste of time.
All I know as I was very young I would talk to him. Family wasn't religious. No one went to church. When I was older they would drop me off in front of a church and I went in. They told me that I needed to go in. That's it. When it was done I walked home. I always remembered, however that I felt good.

Since then my faith has been based on knowing that God was looking out for me. It was much further that I actually started to read the Bible. Much like everyone else I doubted what I read. Yet I couldn't refute his words. He would put thoughts in my head. Questions, statements that I would look up in the Bible and confirm and I would reply in thoughts. It has been this way ever since. A full life, year in Vietnam, two children, marriage of 54 years. I still feel the same. I still believe the same.

I don't quote the Bible for the same reason that for non believers, a bible quote is a waste of time.
This was from the heart, by the way.
Have a good day
 
rbtvgo said:
All good points. So thank you. A bible study for non believers would be a waste of time.
All I know as I was very young I would talk to him. Family wasn't religious. No one went to church. When I was older they would drop me off in front of a church and I went in. They told me that I needed to go in. That's it. When it was done I walked home. I always remembered, however that I felt good.

Since then my faith has been based on knowing that God was looking out for me. It was much further that I actually started to read the Bible. Much like everyone else I doubted what I read. Yet I couldn't refute his words. He would put thoughts in my head. Questions, statements that I would look up in the Bible and confirm and I would reply in thoughts. It has been this way ever since. A full life, year in Vietnam, two children, marriage of 54 years. I still feel the same. I still believe the same.

I don't quote the Bible for the same reason that for non believers, a bible quote is a waste of time.
This was from the heart, by the way.
Have a good day
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How do you believe in a creator's existence when you agree that there is absolutely no evidence of a creator's existence?
VaughanJB said:
True, and we don't yet know the extent of it. Due to the way we detect celestial bodies, we're limited to the speed of light in determining what's out there (always remembering that what we see in the sky at night is the past, not the present.) It's a little odd (imo) that God made objects that require high tech to see, don't you think?

Still, our lack of significance when it comes to the universe is a very sobering thought.
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We are even told that the entire universe was thrown out of kilter as a consequence of human sin and is in need of are restoration. In short, that what we are observing now is a defective universe, and not the original.
 
john19485 said:
The otherday, I was working on my travel trailer refrigerator, I forgot to turn off the gas , and the safty valve was out, I had a small fire fixing to turn into a big one, I heard a voice come into my head, blow it out, I tried once , it didn't do anything, tried again not much, the flame was geting higher, was thinking about the Fire Extinguisher, it came into my head to try one more time , I blew it and all the flame just went out, is there a god, I don't know but as many times , that my life has been spared, I feel something has to be there.
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I have had numerous events that seem to strongly indicate some kind of intervention. One involved my gradually sliding out a fifth floor window as a child and suddenly, at the last moment when I had lost all hope and was preparing for the inevitable fall towards the pavement, I felt myself being elevated back towards the window.

Another incident where certain death was just a fraction of a second away, was at the Coney Island Rollercoaster ride. I was approx. four and my mother had not pulled the hand holding bar towards us as the coaster climbed in order to plunge. This man sitting in front of us, suddenly turned around and told us to pull the holding-bar towards us and hang on for dear life. How he knew, is beyond me. No sooner had he said that, when were suddenly speeding vertically down those rollercoaster tracks at high velocity and then began being savagely wrenched from side to side as it sped around curves while we barely managed to hold on.

Those experiences and many similar ones are hard to explain without imagining a divine intervention.
 
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Radrook said:
I have had numerous events that seem to strongly indicate some kind of intervention. One involved my gradually sliding out a fifth floor window as a child and suddenly, at the last moment when I had lost all hope and was preparing for the inevitable fall towards the pavement, I felt myself being elevated back towards the window.

Another incident where certain death was just a fraction of a second away, was at the Coney Island Rollercoaster ride. I was approx. four and my mother had not pulled the hand holding bar towards us as the coaster climbed in order to plunge. This man sitting in front of us, suddenly turned around and told us to pull the holding-bar towards us and hang on for dear life. How he knew, is beyond me. No sooner had he said that, when were suddenly speeding vertically down those rollercoaster tracks at high velocity and then began being savagely wrenched from side to side as it sped around curves while we barely managed to hold on.

Those experiences and many similar ones are hard to explain without imagining a divine intervention.
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I also feel at times my Mom and Dad and ancestors watch over us...like angels. They do sometimes "save" us. I fell asleep at the wheel on a mountain highway. I went into oncoming traffic at 65 MPH then I woke up ( No horn ) and skidded back to my lane. One more millisecond and big accident. What woke me up? One of my angels. :)
 
Paco Dennis said:
I also feel at times my Mom and Dad and ancestors watch over us...like angels. They do sometimes "save" us. I fell asleep at the wheel on a mountain highway. I went into oncoming traffic at 65 MPH then I woke up ( No horn ) and skidded back to my lane. One more millisecond and big accident. What woke me up? One of my angels. :)
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Wow! That was sure a very close call!
 
Tazx said:
Read something interesting recently...

"When Jesus Christ came upon this earth, you killed him. Only after you killed him you began to worship him. But not only that, you then killed those who would not"!
Tecumseh (American Indian Warrior)
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Wow! I didn't know that Tecumseh had said that. Sounds as if he considered the European settlers veritable imps.
 
Pepper said:
"For I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand."
St. Anselm, 1033-1109
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From a strictly rational point of view that will always seem like the cart before the horse. But in wisdom traditions there is a sense in which you have to let some things penetrate the core of what you are willing to take as real in order to fairly assess its value. It is just unfortunate many Christians express their belief in terms of propositional assertions which are always put forward with dead certainty like common, empirical facts which they most certainly are not.
 
"For I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand." I quote from Pepper.
I believe, so I look for the understanding. As I have said....we are the creation of God. He created us and now we stand and debate the origins of the universe with him???????? DUH!
My dad was my dad, unquestioned until I became old enough to form my own opinions and watch him deal with life. Then I began to question. I have done the same with God but, unlike my father, he never fails to answer me with truth. I have never proven him wrong, yet I continue to try because that is our nature. He created us in his own image yet he want's us to bow to him. The ultimate in glorification yet the ultimate in risk.
There is only one reason for satan to continue.
Prove God wrong, just once and he is not God.
So far he has not succeeded. I don't think he ever will, but he will break havoc with us all.
bob
 
Radrook said:
I have had numerous events that seem to strongly indicate some kind of intervention. One involved my gradually sliding out a fifth floor window as a child and suddenly, at the last moment when I had lost all hope and was preparing for the inevitable fall towards the pavement, I felt myself being elevated back towards the window.

Another incident where certain death was just a fraction of a second away, was at the Coney Island Rollercoaster ride. I was approx. four and my mother had not pulled the hand holding bar towards us as the coaster climbed in order to plunge. This man sitting in front of us, suddenly turned around and told us to pull the holding-bar towards us and hang on for dear life. How he knew, is beyond me. No sooner had he said that, when were suddenly speeding vertically down those rollercoaster tracks at high velocity and then began being savagely wrenched from side to side as it sped around curves while we barely managed to hold on.

Those experiences and many similar ones are hard to explain without imagining a divine intervention.
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I had a close friend and work partner suddenly convert. It came about because his very young child became seriously ill, and then suddenly recovered. He was convinced it was a holy intervention. We're talking a normal guy here to a conversation of "the world is 6000 years old", and believing everything as written in the bible. It was quite a shock, but I think people try to make sense of terrible events, even when there is no sense to be had.
 

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