Why is it that.....

Happyflowerlady said:
I am sure that those ads were only placed on CL long enough to acquire as many "rioters" as they needed, and then the ads were pulled. The possibility that whoever did this would simply just leave the ads online is very slim, in my opinion.
Only someone who actually lived in the area would likely be reading the local CL, so I don't have any reason to doubt that the person in the radio interview actually did see the ads on there. No one was even questioning that the riots were anything except spontaneous; so there was no reason to throw this into the mix unless it were true.
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Many protests have ringers. I have no doubt that the marching protests in particular had recruits. When I was member of a union we were frequently asked to go to various protests and marches along with signing form letters to local and associated political representatives.
 

I really am against having cameras everywhere, recording our every move. But they were just taking about the police wearing a camera the size of a credit card to record all of their encounters with citizens. In a way this is an invasion of privacy for the citizens, but it seems it would at least slow down some of the police abuse that seems to be occurring nationwide nowadays. Of course they can manipulate it if they want to, like turning it off, covering it, etc. One city reported it cut down on police abuse, while another seemed to still have a lot of incidents. http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2...uquerque-police-regards-body-mounted-cameras/

It would be nice to see exactly what happened in this particular case, seems were being spoonfed bits of dramatic nonsense every day, what about the real story. I don't think it should have resulted in a killing, but I'd like to know the details. Even after the killing, there's no excuse for the rioting and theft. I'm not for the militarization of the police department, and I definitely cringe at the suggestions of martial law. As Phil and others have said, if we give up our freedoms for security, we'll have neither.
 
What I don't get is the looting. There probably really is an element of racism and police brutality in that town, which seems to have reached the boiling point, and the rioters are acting out of sheer frustration and anger. But wouldn't they be a lot more believable if they staged a large, but peaceful, protest, instead of rioting and looting? The minute they start looting, they lose the moral high ground. It seemed that way to me back in the 60's, and it still seems that way.
 

Law enforcement HAVE to protect the peaceful marchers as well as PROTECT themselves. It seems as if EVERYTIME the Officers protect themselves, they get ridiculed for it!! Why be a law enforcement officer today......they even place their hand on their gun, they get into trouble. Shoot someone in self defense (shoot or be shot, kill or be killed), and they are placed on Admin duty.

Heck, that Captain State Trooper was put in charge, over the Ferguson PD and what has happened now? He even said, after what happened last night (curfew violation/rioting) that he is very disappointed in the people there. The video of (supposedly) Brown doing a "strong-arm" robbery was released and then the curfew by the Governor turned everything upside down! But, the video does prove that this kid isn't the nice/kind/sweet/law-abiding person people there are making him out to be. Hate to say this, but is it time for the Army National Guard to show their force. Something has to tell these people "WE are the law and you will obey!"
 
I must say I'm still a bit confused over the purpose of "protests" in the middle of night when many people that was actually view the "protests" during the day are asleep. Also how come the 3rd shift of "protestors" seem to be much 'energetic' than first shift. I wasn't a big fan of Occupy Wall Street but they got the occupy part right. "Protesting" in the mid night hour does not accomplish what occupying round the clock does. And the occupiers went away or frequently got minimal press coverage because nothing happened.

Two weeks now and many business owners will be forced to close their doors permanently.

Also I'm hearing/seeing reports of outside agitators so every time a non Ferguson resident is arrested during a "protest" they need to make sure their name and home town are publicized. They must show who is trying to exploit this situation.
 
It was interesting and educational for me last night to switch back and forth between CNN and Fox News.

CNN reported with what seemed to be a balanced view, but Fox was tilted to the far left, calling every action by the police / National Guard an "attack" and overlooking the taunts and projectiles of the "protesters".

WhatInThe, good point on the shift work aspect. I think it's because when you don't work, you're on welfare, and have everything provided for you, your biological clock changes and you perform most of your activities in the midnight hours. That's also when the best bars and clubs are open and all the drug dealing is best.
 
SifuPhil said:
It was interesting and educational for me last night to switch back and forth between CNN and Fox News.

CNN reported with what seemed to be a balanced view, but Fox was tilted to the far left, calling every action by the police / National Guard an "attack" and overlooking the taunts and projectiles of the "protesters".

WhatInThe, good point on the shift work aspect. I think it's because when you don't work, you're on welfare, and have everything provided for you, your biological clock changes and you perform most of your activities in the midnight hours. That's also when the best bars and clubs are open and all the drug dealing is best.
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I think your right about Fox. They had one guy calling it "amateur hour" every time the police approached a line or bunch of protestors. I must admit for a paramilitary organization the police seem to have little discipline or knowledge of drill & ceremony ie they need to approach the protestors in a line or wedge formation. A tight formation. They need roving squads to pluck out the trouble makers.

CNN/Don Lemon has been ify. This weekend he was 100% with the protestors. He tempered his bias yesterday and actually looked at things quite objectively. He was also open and pursued the idea of outside agitators.

Another troublesum sidenote. I saw a pregnant mom protestor in a hippy tie die t shirt last night with a gas mask. Um, setting aside the tear gas and/or violent coughing that could affect her among or heat frustration from wearing the mask for long periods of time what if there is a stampede from a rush or retreat. KEEP THE KIDS out of dangerous personal endevors.
 
WhatInThe said:
I think your right about Fox. They had one guy calling it "amateur hour" every time the police approached a line or bunch of protestors. I must admit for a paramilitary organization the police seem to have little discipline or knowledge of drill & ceremony ie they need to approach the protestors in a line or wedge formation. A tight formation. They need roving squads to pluck out the trouble makers.
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Agreed - they have the tech but I don't think they've fully trained-up with it yet, or they're just afraid of being perceived as TOO military.

CNN/Don Lemon has been ify. This weekend he was 100% with the protestors. He tempered his bias yesterday and actually looked at things quite objectively. He was also open and pursued the idea of outside agitators.
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I wonder if someone had a little talk with him, because I noticed the same thing.

Another troublesum sidenote. I saw a pregnant mom protestor in a hippy tie die t shirt last night with a gas mask. Um, setting aside the tear gas and/or violent coughing that could affect her among or heat frustration from wearing the mask for long periods of time what if there is a stampede from a rush or retreat. KEEP THE KIDS out of dangerous personal endevors.
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That's insane.

I caught a 10-second clip of a group of so-called protesters looting a liquor store. They had their security line outside the front entrance all holding their hands in the air, in the so-called "Don't shoot me" position, while their cohorts were carrying out anything they could.

And they all had smiles on their faces.

If I were there I'm afraid I would see the "Don't shoot me" position as just offering a free shot at their X-ring. :mad:
 
I think that the policeman who shot the young man over-reacted. If Brown was unarmed, and the cop felt he had to shoot for some reason, why not just shoot him in the leg to stop him like so many officers have done in the past in those circumstances. Once on the ground he could be cuffed, or additionally tased if needed.

If a cop who's supposed to be trained can't handle one man who is unarmed without riddling his body with bullets, then the US is becoming an even scarier place than I ever imagined. The whole police department handled this thing poorly, IMO. I understand that the amount of violent protesters were no more than 200 people at best, don't know if that number is valid. Here's the opinion of an ex-Seattle policeman...

Many local law enforcement agencies are now outfitted and behave like small armies. This is not good, and the federal government shares much of the blame. With the advent of the drug war and especially since 9/11, the Department of Defense has been more than generous in gifts of surplus military items to the locals: armored personnel carriers, MRAPs (mine-resistant, ambush protected vehicles), and a wide assortment of military weaponry.

The causes of the continuing unrest in Ferguson are many: the shooting death of an unarmed teenager, of course, along with persistent racial bigotry and discrimination, crushing poverty, failing schools, high unemployment… But it was the police department’s precipitous, militarized response last weekend that transformed peaceful vigils and protests into a siege of proportions never before seen in that St. Louis suburb.
That, and an abiding, preexisting condition of deep distrust of the city’s police officers.

Throughout the nation, in neighborhoods that have been historically neglected or oppressed by their police, the military mentality has exacerbated an already dreadful relationship. And it has all but destroyed “community policing,” a promising program that seeks to create authentic problem-solving partnerships between police and community.

We should not be surprised that officers of the Ferguson Police Department responded aggressively, militarily, to the original protests. It’s what cops do. They are conditioned to believe they are in control and that they must maintain that control, at all costs.

They come to “own” the streets they patrol. The cop culture produces an attitude that, “We’re the police, and you’re not. We will decide what’s best for the community.” Even if it means hitting the family home of a suspected low-level, nonviolent drug offender with maximum military might, or using dogs for crowd control, or violating the civil liberties and human rights of fellow citizens.

Of course, at times, there is no substitute for military equipment and military-like tactics. Picture armed and barricaded suspects, school shootings, and other urgent, life-and-death situations. Make no mistake, America’s cities need carefully selected, well trained, highly self-disciplined police officers to confront these dangerous situations.

The problem comes when local law enforcement embraces militaristic tactics as its default position. Especially in situations, like Ferguson, where de-escalation efforts would have made infinitely better sense.

Picture Captain Ron Johnson standing before that bank of microphones at the beginning, not the end of the week. See him walking, in his everyday uniform, with protestors, smiling, hugging, saying, as he did in church yesterday, “You are my family…I am you.” A powerful statement in a town whose African-American population is 70 percent and whose police force of 53 numbers only three black cops.

Had Ferguson police responded with openness, had they listened and listened then listened some more, had they been as prompt and as forthcoming and thorough in their explanations as circumstances would allow, I am convinced that the peace of the community could have been maintained, its residents allowed to mourn the death of another young black man, even as they insisted on answers from their local police.

American policing, almost since its inception, has operated as a closed, paramilitary-bureaucratic institution. What we’re seeing on the streets of Ferguson is nothing new. We’ve seen it in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries in the police response to labor, antiwar, civil rights, and campus demonstrations. What’s new is just how militaristic everyday policing has become in the early years of the twenty-first century.

But all is not lost. There are many ways to make police more responsible to the communities they serve. Let’s end the drug war that encourages the targeting of poor people, young people, people of color.

Let’s flatten steep police hierarchies of power that discourage open and forthright communication within the ranks, and between the people and the police. Let’s invest civilian review boards with investigative and subpoena powers that allow them real oversight. Let’s insist on meaningful community representation in all aspects of police policy-making, program development, priority setting and crisis management.

And, most important, let’s encourage good people to go into policing. They can reform things from the inside and provide living exemplars of what good policing can be.

Norm Stamper was Seattle police chief from 1994-2000. He is the author of Breaking Rank: A Top Cop’s Exposé of American Policing and is an advisory board member of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition.

Full article: http://time.com/3136586/militarizing-ferguson-cops-with-riot-gear-is-a-huge-mistake/
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SeaBreeze said:
I think that the policeman who shot the young man over-reacted. If Brown was unarmed, and the cop felt he had to shoot for some reason, why not just shoot him in the leg to stop him like so many officers have done in the past in those circumstances. Once on the ground he could be cuffed, or additionally tased if needed.
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Unless I'm very badly mistaken, cops are not trained to shoot at arms or legs - they're taught to aim for "center of mass". Shooting the gun out of an opponent's hand or hitting them in the leg is just Hollywood stuff, especially in a critical scenario. A leg, especially one that is moving, is a MUCH smaller target than a torso.

If a cop who's supposed to be trained can't handle one man who is unarmed without riddling his body with bullets, then the US is becoming an even scarier place than I ever imagined. The whole police department handled this thing poorly, IMO. I understand that the amount of violent protesters were no more than 200 people at best, don't know if that number is valid. Here's the opinion of an ex-Seattle policeman...
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A 300-pounder can absorb an amazing amount of trauma and just keep going. There are a myriad of cases where Tazers, pepper spray and even batons have had little or no effect on these guys. In my bouncing days I ran across a few big boys like this and my entire plan of attack was nullified, because I couldn't apply the usual pressure points / restraining holds on them due to their size.

I'm not excusing the six shots that the officer took - I'm just saying that he might not have had any options except lethal force. It WAS the decision of Brown to mix it up, however, so in the end if he had just followed the officer's orders he might still be alive.
 
The beauty of a tight military formation is that everyone is in sync. All weapons including batons would be in the same position-hopefully lowered. Everyone would move/step at the same time. They way the police are moving or approaching protestors is too loosey goosey. If they make an it an order only raise their weapons when told to do so you wouldn't have a lone wolf cop pointing at something that might not be there and setting off a crowd. You remind those in formation they are protected by snipers which are probably there and a roving squads outside the formation. If a military formation approached a crowd with batons across their body without the room to even swing them they could literally push a crowd where ever they wanted. If you have sticks in the mud you have the roving squads pluck them out of the way. BUT it does take discipline to resist the temptation to raise or use a weapon or stay in formation no matter what's going on around or in front of you.
 
Well Phil, I guess I would like to see the video of what really happened at the time of the shooting, and know if it really was a critical situation that required a shoot to kill response. The whole thing sounds so fishy to me, I have a hard time believing anything I'm hearing about this incident. I also think the cop could have called some backup in on the radio in seconds, I know where I live, there'll be 4 cop cars surrounding vehicles that were just stopped for traffic violations. They all seem to be awfully bored with lack of real work to do, overstaffed IMO.
 
SeaBreeze said:
I think that the policeman who shot the young man over-reacted. If Brown was unarmed, and the cop felt he had to shoot for some reason, why not just shoot him in the leg to stop him like so many officers have done in the past in those circumstances. Once on the ground he could be cuffed, or additionally tased if needed.

If a cop who's supposed to be trained can't handle one man who is unarmed without riddling his body with bullets, then the US is becoming an even scarier place than I ever imagined. The whole police department handled this thing poorly, IMO. I understand that the amount of violent protesters were no more than 200 people at best, don't know if that number is valid. Here's the opinion of an ex-Seattle policeman...
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I agree but it comes down to the cop being in the car and/or somewhat restricted. But so should an unarmed attacker. Another but but I heard some of the so called talking head experts say that a larger attacker is considered a legitimate threat.

Also a lot of automatic or semi automatic pistols is that they have a fast rate of fire meaning if you have a pistol that can fire at 2-4 rounds per second at least. So just a two second struggle or decision to fire can result in the 6 hits Brown received. Theoretically the shooter skill/reaction time and trigger sensitivity play a bigger role than the weapon itself. This is why you have cases like police firing at a suspect or vehicle like a hundred times. It wasn't over kill so much as the time it took the suspect or vehicle to stop which is seconds. But if you have a half dozen cops on scene you can get those numbers real fast, too fast.
 
That's true - like in most of these cases since we weren't there we'll probably never be sure of what happened, and I agree that the video would be a great help.

I believe they said that this cop has 12 years experience, so I can't put it down to jitters. He may very well have over-reacted, but he also may have had enough experience to realize that nothing short of bullets would stop this guy IF he were threatening him. That's the part that's tough to figure without the video.

He (the cop) may also have just snapped - it's happened before.

Calling for backup ... yeah, he could have / should have done that, but it's conceivable that he just didn't have time.

Eh ... World War I was started by the shooting of an insignificant political figure, so it's not surprising that these riots are happening.
 
Recently saw a movie Battle In Seattle about the 1999 WTO or World Trade Organization protests-brutal. It was surreal especially after seeing the Furguson protests.

Ironically the mayor in charge Paul Schell who was in charge in 1999 just passed away late July. The riots and response were so brutal he couldn't even get past a re-election primary 2 years later and the police chief Norm Stamper resigned shortly after(Stamper commented that Ferguson should've learned from the 1999 WTO protests). Excessive use of tear gas came up then too, they used so much they ran out. The police were just as disorganized. And there was a leadership disconnect.

The movie is an interesting take on the protests/ors. Takes swipes at the WTO but focuses on the protestors and some of their tactics and internal politics.
 
The initial video of Brown intimidating the convenience store clerk still makes me think that officer probably acted in self-defense...
 
I think I have the perfect solution to the "black teens (or black adults) killings by white officers" unrest..........make the entire PD of a predominately black town/area black officers. From the Chief all the way down to a patrol officer. I know that sounds "discriminating" to have an all black PD, but it sure (hopefully) would stop the unrest of white officer/black teen (or adult) killings. If there was a black only PD, in these areas, obviously white officers couldn't be blamed for anything.

Just a thought.
 
Well, speaking as one who was involuntarily in the great big middle of the Martin Luther King riots in Washington, DC in '68, complete with fires and looting and violent chaos, and which caused me to be the most terrified I have ever been in my entire life (I did not think I was going to get out of there alive)-- once this kind of thing starts and gets out of hand, I don't believe there is much the police can realistically do about it. The violence feeds on itself, and when you throw drugs and alcohol into the mix, you've got a murderous situation. That night in Washington (I was just trying to get home from work downtown and back to Maryland), I don't think Julius Caesar with Roman legions in tight formation could have done anything to stop the violence and looting. "Shoot the looters" isn't a bad idea, but there were countless looters, and there were violent mobs setting fires, and people busting up things just for the hell of it, and people being dragged out of cars and attacked and there simply weren't enough police. The only thing that stopped those riots in Washington was ordering Federal tanks into Washington to clear the streets, two days later. Meantime the looters and rioters had destroyed most of THEIR OWN neighborhoods. The riots in Maryland (primarily Baltimore) stopped more quickly, as soon as Gov. Agnew put out a shoot to kill order as to looters.

Allegedly the rioters were rioting because MLK had been shot -- WHAT??! MLK was the ultimate man of peace -- for mobs to loot and burn and kill as a remembrance of him is absolutely insane. IMHO, the riots didn't have anything to do with Martin Luther King's death, except to use it as an excuse. I suspect the Ferguson situation is the same. Rioting and looting and burning doesn't get you anything but burned out neighborhoods and more hate and violence. I could almost understand it if the MLK mob violence was directed against the person/persons who had him killed, but it wasn't -- it was directed at the rioters' own neighborhoods and innocent civilians passing through. No sense to it at all. Just hate and violence.
 

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