Why isnt the world made up of egotists only?

grahamg

grahamg

Old codger
Location
South of Manchester, UK
Everyone has an ego, (we wouldn't be human otherwise), but given most successful people have large egos, why is it the world isn't made up of only egotists, people with high opinions of themselves and their own worth?

Why are there people born who are shy and reserved, "less likely to succeed", surely evolutionary pressure should have meant these people, who think less of themselves, would have been weeded out?

My only conclusion is those more shy, less bold or assertive are somehow needed by the egotists and a world full only of egotists would be very unstable, each seeking to be top dog!!! :(
 

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grahamg said:
Everyone has an ego, (we wouldn't be human otherwise), but given most successful people have large egos, why is it the world isn't made up of only egotists, people with high opinions of themselves and their own worth?

Why are there people born who are shy and reserved, "less likely to succeed", surely evolutionary pressure should have meant these people, who think less of themselves, would have been weeded out?

My only conclusion is those more shy, less bold or assertive are somehoeeded by the egotists and a world full only of egotists would be very unstable, each seeking to be top dog!!! :(
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(y)(y)
 
A leader without followers wouldn't work very well.

I would not conclude that people who don't appear to be egotists think less of themselves. I think they may just be more realistic about themselves. Too many egotists can't see their own weaknesses, and suffer for it. I think the most effective leaders exude an air of confidence but know realistically what they are good at and what they are not.

Your evolutionary question is a good one, will have to think on that for a while.
 

grahamg said:
Everyone has an ego, (we wouldn't be human otherwise), but given most successful people have large egos, why is it the world isn't made up of only egotists, people with high opinions of themselves and their own worth?

Why are there people born who are shy and reserved, "less likely to succeed", surely evolutionary pressure should have meant these people, who think less of themselves, would have been weeded out?

My only conclusion is those more shy, less bold or assertive are somehoeeded by the egotists and a world full only of egotists would be very unstable, each seeking to be top dog!!! :(
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This might help. Quoted directly:

10. Shyness is an evolutionary advantage​

If you’re used to thinking of your shyness as something wrong with you, know this: shyness is not a personality mistake, but an evolutionary advantage. According to evolutionary psychologists, the tendency to fear and avoid strangers is hardwired into our psyche. It stems from the days when tribes and village communities had to protect themselves from potentially dangerous people outside the tribe.

Even today, it is impossible to know beforehand whether someone will be good or bad for your work team, family or friendship group. Thus, it makes sense to have a combination of bold people who can push boundaries and expand social networks, and shy people who can act with more caution and restraint. Every society (or group) needs a balance of both kinds of people to function properly. Shy people of the world, unite!

https://www.truity.com/blog/10-oddly-helpful-benefits-being-shy
 
People with large egos can have low self esteem.

Narcissism for example can come from the emotional needs of a child not being met. I have read this anyway and it sure explained my one brother.

Also evolution couldn't weed people out because many are who they are largely from nurture not nature. Such as an adverse childhood.

People see things so differently. When I was in college I was older for college age and became school friends with a woman older than me. We met to study and got coffee out of this coffee vending machine. It was cheap and surprisingly good coffee. Anyway I sloshed a little on the way to the table and stated "hang on I need to get some paper towels." My school friend stated "oh leave it, let the janitor get it" I said "no, someone could slip." Went to the bathroom and wiped up the coffee.

Why did I see this coffee hazard on the floor so different than her?
 
grahamg said:
Everyone has an ego, (we wouldn't be human otherwise), but given most successful people have large egos, why is it the world isn't made up of only egotists, people with high opinions of themselves and their own worth?

Why are there people born who are shy and reserved, "less likely to succeed", surely evolutionary pressure should have meant these people, who think less of themselves, would have been weeded out?

My only conclusion is those more shy, less bold or assertive are somehow needed by the egotists and a world full only of egotists would be very unstable, each seeking to be top dog!!! :(
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Most people overestimate their abilities, which is helpful in some ways. If you don't think you can accomplish something, you're less likely to try and you might just give up early on in the process, whereas, even if you're not competent enough to do something but you believe you are, you can find workarounds or develop the skills you need. Or you can get other people who are more competent to help.

There's also the Dunning-Kruger effect where incompetent people think they're competent, but that's a bit different. Those are people who make a total mess of things but think they did well.

I read an article about how people judge their own driving abilities and something like 70% thought they were better than average.

It's good to be overly confident when you're driving. Otherwise, you'll be anxious and it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your anxiety will diminish your actual abilities and you'll be more likely to get into a wreck.
 
egotist
[ˈēɡətəst]

NOUN
  1. a person who is excessively conceited or self-absorbed; a self-seeker

The world is an empty place for people who always think about and put themselves first.

Nothing is more satisfying than to make a significant difference for someone else, be it spouse, child or anyone else to whom you can make a meaningful contribution.
 
HarryHawk said:
egotist
[ˈēɡətəst]

NOUN
  1. a person who is excessively conceited or self-absorbed; a self-seeker

The world is an empty place for people who always think about and put themselves first.

Nothing is more satisfying than to make a significant difference for someone else, be it spouse, child or anyone else to whom you can make a meaningful contribution.
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It's true that making the world better for someone is rewarding for most of us, but on the other side of the spectrum, there are those who derive great pleasure from causing other people to suffer. They're on a "power trip" and get off on having power over others. They're control freaks who think that their way is the best way, regardless of facts that might conflict with their actions and opinions.

That kind of thinking is what got us into the mess in Afghanistan and Iraq. "You're either with us or against us" was the zeitgeist and a lot of people fell into that mindset at the time, including myself. We wanted retribution for the attack that killed 3,000 people so we were willing to go along with the egotists who lied us into war.

There's an argument that's often made about altruism that there are no truly unselfish deeds. We only help others when there's something in it for ourselves. Like you said, there's "nothing more satisfying" than helping someone, which makes it about the one helping rather than the one being helped. We derive pleasure from doing "unselfish" acts. Therefore, we probably wouldn't perform those acts if we'd didn't experience pleasure from it.
 
Irwin said:
Break
There's an argument that's often made about altruism that there are no truly unselfish deeds. We only help others when there's something in it for ourselves. Like you said, there's "nothing more satisfying" than helping someone, which makes it about the one helping rather than the one being helped. We derive pleasure from doing "unselfish" acts. Therefore, we probably wouldn't perform those acts if we'd didn't experience pleasure from it.
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It is possible to over think things though isn't it, and denying anyone might do something for another without thinking of themselves, is maybe going too far(?). :)
 
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grahamg said:
Its is possible to over think things though isn't it, and denying anyone might do something for another without thinking of themselves, is maybe going too far(?). :)
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I didn't say that's how I felt. I said "there's an argument that's often made..." I haven't thought it through completely.

Maybe sometimes our actions are purely altruistic when we act on impulse, such as when we break up a fight: one where we put ourselves in danger, simply because we're doing what's right without regard for our own safety. Given time to think about it and consider the consequences, however, we might not act unless we knew that people would hold us in high regard for our actions, so in that case, it would be in our own selfish interests.

Many of us do things to protect or benefit our friends and family without any self-benefit other than we'd feel bad if something happened to them. We're protecting our social support network among other things. They are a part of us and our lives, so in a way, it's self-defense or self-enrichment.
 
A couple of good articles on the thread topic:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2015/feb/25/writers-vain-egotism-julian-baggini

Plus this one:
https://www.vox.com/2016/9/15/12902258/ego-ryan-holiday-freud-ego-is-the-enemy

"Ryan Holiday is an entrepreneur, marketing strategist, and author of "Trust me I'm lying" and "The Obstacle Is the Way". His latest book, "Ego is the Enemy", may be his most interesting yet. Using various historical figures as case studies, Holiday illustrates the perils of egotism and explains how un-self-awareness is our greatest impediment."

I spoke with Holiday recently about his new book, his love of Stoic philosophy, and why he thinks ego is everyone’s enemy. Our conversation started:

Quoted question:
"You write that you hope people think less of themselves after reading this book. What do you mean?"

Ryan Holiday Response:

"I confess that was a weird line to put in the introduction of a book. I'm sure my publisher was less than thrilled about it. Most books are designed to sell, and making people feel good about themselves is reliable way to do that. So this is an understandable bias in writing, and I'm certainly subject to it myself."

"But my thinking here was simple: It's not so much that I want people to think less of themselves, it's that I want them to think rationally and objectively about their skills, not optimistically. Questioning ourselves is what drives us to improve and get better. In addition to that, the less time you spend thinking about yourself, the more time you spend thinking about others and the work you're doing and the standards you set for yourself. This is how you stretch and grow and throw off selfish, egotistical things."
 
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Maybe a better article here, (linked to one of those above):
https://medium.com/@ameet/why-ego-is-the-enemy-and-what-we-can-do-about-it-a4eae45a81d8

"What do we mean when we discuss ego? As Holiday writes:
“The ego we see most commonly goes by a more casual definition: an unhealthy belief in our own importance. Arrogance. Self-centered ambition… It’s that petulant child inside every person, the one that chooses getting his or her way over anything or anyone else. The need to be better than, more than, recognized for, far past any reasonable utility — that’s ego. It’s the sense of superiority and certainty that exceeds the bounds of confidence and talent.”
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So why is ego the enemy? There are several reasons:
  • Keeps you out of touch with reality
  • Creates unrealistic expectations and entitlement
  • Makes you dependent on external validation

Keeps you out of touch with reality​

One of the biggest reasons why ego is your enemy is that it keeps you out of touch with reality. Your ego is what prevents you from hearing critical but necessary feedback from others. Ego makes you over-estimate your own abilities and worth, and under-estimate the effort and skill required to achieve your goals. All of this means that you lose touch with reality, and you miss opportunities — to improve, to connect with others, and to achieve your goals.
“If ego is the voice that tells us we’re better than we really are, we can say ego inhibits true success by preventing a direct and honest connection to the world around us… The ways this separation manifests itself negatively are immense: We can’t work with other people if we’ve put up walls. We can’t improve the world if we don’t understand it or ourselves. We can’t take or receive feedback if we are incapable of or uninterested in hearing from outside sources.”
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Creates unrealistic expectations and entitlement​

Ego makes you assume that you “deserve” some outcome — a job offer, a promotion, a sports win, etc. — because of your past efforts. It creates a feeling of entitlement: I want what’s mine, what’s due to me. I know what I deserve.
“Entitlement assumes: This is mine. I’ve earned it. At the same time, entitlement nickels and dimes other people because it can’t conceive of valuing another person’s time as highly as its own. It delivers tirades and pronouncements that exhaust the people who work for us and with us, who have no choice other than to go along. It overstates our abilities to others, it renders generous judgment of our prospects, and it creates ridiculous expectations.”
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Makes you dependent on external validation​

If you let your ego take too much control of yourself, you become incredibly dependent on external validation. This validation may take the form of:
  • Press coverage, mentions within internal company communications, applause from a crowd
  • The praise and admiration of your family, friends, boss, and colleagues
  • Extrinsic signals like a higher compensation, big house, fancy car, expensive vacations, impressive title
  • Social media likes and follows
Your ego needs and craves this external validation in order to feel satisfied. As Ryan writes:
“Ego needs honors in order to be validated. Confidence, on the other hand, is able to wait and focus on the task at hand regardless of external recognition… [With ego], we need to be recognized. We need to be compensated. Especially problematic is the fact that, often, we get that. We are praised, we are paid, and we start to assume that the two things always go together. The ‘expectation hangover’ inevitably ensues.”
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