Why Was It Necessary To Shoot This Child 11 Times?!!

[ELjane]

Are police so instructed to train their trigger finger to pull their gun's trigger over and over again even when their target is obviously incapacitated? Something I've noticed that when a person who is accused of causing harm to another dares to ask the arresting officer what he's being accused of and the officer ignores answering, him/her and the already highly upset arrester's temper is so aggravated by the nonanswer he starts a physical fight with the officer. If the officer had taken the time to talk with the accused, he could have calmed the accused down & the fight would not have ensued. Imo.

 

[Keesha]

I didn't see 911's reply as defending police. I felt he was just trying to get clarity as well as to mention that where he's from this was unlikely to have gone down like that.
@911 "
You have to teach them, but If they were born with “Down Syndrome” they are not considered a risk." I don't know about that. Too many cops these days are not wired right...they react rather than think. Anyone may be at risk for being mishandled and assaulted these days. That's becoming more and more evident each day.

Yes. In hindsight, I agree. My perceptions really off lately.

Why wouldn’t 911 consider what his squad would have done? He is a police officer after all. Plus he’s a guy so not as outwardly sentimental as women. Probably a good thing.

For some reason I often think those in positions of power take advantage of others. It’s become a theme in my faulty thinking. Pfft but I’m working on it.

 

[Aneeda72]

Are police so instructed to train their trigger finger to pull their gun's trigger over and over again even when their target is obviously incapacitated? Something I've noticed that when a person who is accused of causing harm to another dares to ask the arresting officer what he's being accused of and the officer ignores answering, him/her and the already highly upset arrester's temper is so aggravated by the nonanswer he starts a physical fight with the officer. If the officer had taken the time to talk with the accused, he could have calmed the accused down & the fight would not have ensued. Imo.

911 would know about the gun thing, but I think they are trained to empty the clip.

 

[Sunny]

Plus he’s a guy so not as outwardly sentimental as women. Probably a good thing.

"Sentimental," Keesha? I think that's the wrong word. Were you referring to the police accepting the fact that people with Down's syndrome are usually not considered a risk? If so, that's not being sentimental. It's showing normal human compassion. And you don't have to be female to have it.

911, is there an actual law about dealing with people with Down's syndrome? Are the police supposed to keep their hands off their damn guns in that situation?

 

[win231]

Are police so instructed to train their trigger finger to pull their gun's trigger over and over again even when their target is obviously incapacitated? Something I've noticed that when a person who is accused of causing harm to another dares to ask the arresting officer what he's being accused of and the officer ignores answering, him/her and the already highly upset arrester's temper is so aggravated by the nonanswer he starts a physical fight with the officer. If the officer had taken the time to talk with the accused, he could have calmed the accused down & the fight would not have ensued. Imo.

Police are trained to "keep shooting until the threat is neutralized" which pretty much leaves it open to their own interpretation. When several officers are involved, it often becomes a shooting frenzy where they all want to get in on it - much like we've seen in a police beating.
And when many rounds are fired at a suspect, there is less chance of survival, which means there is no chance of the suspect testifying about the situation.

 

[Aneeda72]

"Sentimental," Keesha? I think that's the wrong word. Were you referring to the police accepting the fact that people with Down's syndrome are usually not considered a risk? If so, that's not being sentimental. It's showing normal human compassion. And you don't have to be female to have it.

911, is there an actual law about dealing with people with Down's syndrome? Are the police supposed to keep their hands off their damn guns in that situation?

I am sure there is no law concerning any disabled person in a law and order situation. In fact, the ADA specifically excludes disabled persons from special consideration if they cause issues. Same with service dogs.

If a service dog poops on the floor of the store, it can be kicked out. We had a service dog, who on a trip had diarrhea in a store. Large mess in front of the donut case, but when you gotta go you gotta go. Another service dog we had growled when a person reached for me, kind of lunging at me, dog was banned from from the VA.

 

[Keesha]

"Sentimental," Keesha? I think that's the wrong word. Were you referring to the police accepting the fact that people with Down's syndrome are usually not considered a risk? If so, that's not being sentimental. It's showing normal human compassion. And you don't have to be female to have it.

911, is there an actual law about dealing with people with Down's syndrome? Are the police supposed to keep their hands off their damn guns in that situation?

No Sunny. That is ‘not’ what I was referring to. I was strictly referring to his initial response. While most of us comment on our shock and horror of the situation, he instantly brought up the fact that the police force he is in wouldn’t have done it that way. His response was a professional opinion of the situation whereas my reaction is one of pure emotion as were many others.

That is what I was referring it to. It certainly wasn’t a criticism.

I guess I would have expected different training for those with impaired mental functioning; like people with autism, mental retardation, Alzheimer’s, dementia etc...but it’s not a subject I know anything about.

 

[I'mnotdeadyet]

The article says the mother thought he had a bb gun or pellet gun. She had told the police earlier that he "had" a gun, which could mean anything from running around, shooting people with it, or just the fact that he owned a gun. The mother said he was freaked by police. So why then did she call the police? Something is definitely "off" in this whole story.

This. I try not to judge news stories based on the first report. There is always something missing, something inaccurate. My first response is that this is nuts, there's no reason for it. And while I am having an extremely difficult time conjuring any explanation in my mind, I'll still wait to hear the rest of the story.

The root problem here is that parents of mentally ill children are forced to call the police when their child is out of control and needs hospitalization when they should be calling doctors. We need to reopen many of the psychiatric hospitals that were closed during the deinstitutionalization movement of the 1970's. That resulted in hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people living homeless on the streets and the need to call police when we should be calling psychiatric nurses and orderlies to come prepared with syringes of Haldol rather than guns.

If the mother had called the hospital they would have told her she had to call the police to bring him in. It's standard procedure these days if we want to get care for our mentally ill children.

True to a degree, but calling a doctor or other medico once things have reached a certain point doesn't help much either. Law enforcement needs people specialized in mental health issues to assist in getting things under control first. These people would be emergency responders that can get to the scene quickly, assess, and direct. Once things have settled down some the decision can be made whether to use medical staff or local law enforcement for the next step.

But everyone needs to understand that no answer will be correct for every case. There will always be exceptions and caveats.

 

[911]

911 would know about the gun thing, but I think they are trained to empty the clip.

I have been very reluctant to answer these types of questions because my answer may be misconstrued or misinterpreted. Keep in mind that I can only speak for the Pennsylvania State Police and how we are trained. We also train other police departments, but once they leave the Academy, they are more obligated to follow their department’s policies and not our’s.

Police are obliged to follow DOJ policies that have been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. When firing a weapon, our goal is not to maim or injure. Our goal is to completely end the threat, which sometimes may require firing several shots. Shooting to injure will not prevent a suspect from returning fire. OTOH, we do not shoot some felons, for example, someone running down the street holding a stolen bicycle or TV. A clear and present danger of bodily injury must be present. No cop wakes up in the morning thinking, “I’m going to shoot someone today.” It should be every policeman’s objective to quell a situation without killing someone, but there are times when the bad guy has other ideas. Last thing I need to address is that Tasers are good, but not always effective. They are only effective in defined situations.

I hope this gives you an understanding of our objective.

 

[Della]

True to a degree, but calling a doctor or other medico once things have reached a certain point doesn't help much either. Law enforcement needs people specialized in mental health issues to assist in getting things under control first. These people would be emergency responders that can get to the scene quickly, assess, and direct. Once things have settled down some the decision can be made whether to use medical staff or local law enforcement for the next step.

But everyone needs to understand that no answer will be correct for every case. There will always be exceptions and caveats.

I do understand that no one answer is correct for every case, but currently there is only one answer in use for out of control mentally ill and that is to call the police.

Remember when people used to joke about, "calling the men in the white coats?" those were vans sent from psychiatric hospitals (not EMS squads) supplied with strong young orderlies trained in management of the mentally ill. They used medications and sometimes straight jackets to subdue the patient until they arrived at the hospital and were seen by a doctor. They no longer exist. Now we ask the police who, while many are given some training in handling these cases, can't be expected to handle them as well as people whose first calling is the care of mentally ill patients. Too often the policeman's first reaction is to use the training they use most, the training they've had in confronting criminals.

Sometimes the patient is armed and the police need to be called, but in a case like this young autistic boy, it would have probably spared his life if his mother had, had the option of the "men in white coats," whose first and only training is dealing with the mentally ill.

 

[Aneeda72]

I do understand that no one answer is correct for every case, but currently there is only one answer in use for out of control mentally ill and that is to call the police.

Remember when people used to joke about, "calling the men in the white coats?" those were vans sent from psychiatric hospitals (not EMS squads) supplied with strong young orderlies trained in management of the mentally ill. They used medications and sometimes straight jackets to subdue the patient until they arrived at the hospital and were seen by a doctor. They no longer exist. Now we ask the police who, while many are given some training in handling these cases, can't be expected to handle them as well as people whose first calling is the care of mentally ill patients. Too often the policeman's first reaction is to use the training they use most, the training they've had in confronting criminals.

Sometimes the patient is armed and the police need to be called, but in a case like this young autistic boy, it would have probably spared his life if his mother had, had the option of the "men in white coats," whose first and only training is dealing with the mentally ill.

I have no ideal why she did not call paramedics. They would have come with the police and could have advised the police about the boy’s condition. The only plus for my son is that most people recognize a person with DS, but unless they are very knowledgable they would not recognize them from the back.

 

[doat]

police were called by his mother to help get him to the hospital for his mental issues. Was this a police issue to begin with? Seems we call the police far to many times for issues out of the authority. Why didn't the father or other family members assist?

 

[Aneeda72]

police were called by his mother to help get him to the hospital for his mental issues. Was this a police issue to begin with? Seems we call the police far to many times for issues out of the authority. Why didn't the father or other family members assist?

I did foster care for mentally ill children. Most often the police are needed.