Yes? No? Greek Voters Are Perplexed by a Momentous Referendum.

Imagine the fate of your country hangs on a yes-or-no question. The question is drafted in cryptic, bureaucratic language and asks you to decide on an economic program that no longer exists. Leaders in neighboring countries are begging you to vote yes. Your government is begging you to vote no.
 

At least with the Scottish Independence referendum the populous had plenty of time to consider a very complex issue. The Greeks will have a little over a week to think about how to cast their vote.
 
Greece should do whatever is best for Greece.. This is just like when the greedy banks wanted to blame the housing bust that lead to the recession and near destruction of our economy on the home purchasers who were sold those horrible mortgages.
 

I read an article last week (Huffington Post) that said Greece should do what Argentina did years ago when they were in the same situation. Go bankrupt and start over. It was rough for a few years but eventually it turned around and now Argentina is okay. Never hear anyone talking about that though. And I guess the problem is that those creditors (Germany for one) want to 'make hay' on the suffering of the people of Greece which is why they kept offering 'one more credit card' if you know what I mean. Sort of a "You got too much debt....well here's another credit card that you can use to pay down your other credit cards" kind of situation.

Today I read another article that suggests that America is in a situation not unsimilar to Greece. Here's the link and it has a great graphic that shows what is really going on. The article is called 'Athens on the Potomac'. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-01/athens-potomac-it-could-never-happen-here-right
 
Listening to journalist who recently attended a wedding in Greece revealed the problem, those who can avoid paying taxes do--and joke about it! This journalist was appalled and saw the tax dodge as the leading contributor to greece's economic difficulty...
 
Listening to journalist who recently attended a wedding in Greece revealed the problem, those who can avoid paying taxes do--and joke about it! This journalist was appalled and saw the tax dodge as the leading contributor to greece's economic difficulty...

So how is that different from here?
 
Exactly QS. How many tax havens and tax loopholes exist to cater to the wealthy of both your country and mine? Loopholes and havens that you and I can't make use of because we're not rich enough to afford the lawyers and accountants, we haven't got enough money after expenses to hide away, etc..... And then there's all the corporations that pay either no or very little in taxes and our government(s) look the other way.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/03/15/corporate-tax-avoidance-canada_n_4969404.html

So maybe while we're sneering at the corrupt behaviour of the Greeks, we should remember that the same thing goes on here.
 
Exactly QS. How many tax havens and tax loopholes exist to cater to the wealthy of both your country and mine? Loopholes and havens that you and I can't make use of because we're not rich enough to afford the lawyers and accountants, we haven't got enough money after expenses to hide away, etc..... And then there's all the corporations that pay either no or very little in taxes and our government(s) look the other way.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/03/15/corporate-tax-avoidance-canada_n_4969404.html

So maybe while we're sneering at the corrupt behaviour of the Greeks, we should remember that the same thing goes on here.

and I would add... on a much larger scale.
 
I just read an article that puts an entirely different spin on the situation in Greece and frankly, I find it obscene and especially as it points to the average citizen as being made a scapegoat for what has transpired.

In a nutshell, it points to decades of militarism by the Greek government as they geared up to protect themselves from a Turkish threat that hasn't occurred. It was encouraged by Germany, the US and France who've found an absolute goldmine as they sell billions of dollars of weapons and war machinery to Greece. Out of the $320 billion owing, approximately half is due to this militarization. The article goes on to say that if Greece were to acknowledge this situation and reduce their purchases to 1% of GDP (instead of the 2% spending that is being encouraged by 'governments' everywhere now), they could easily make the $2 billion dollar payment being demanded immediately by the IMF.

But nobody is suggesting it. Why not? Well, consider the continual haranguing about the Russian threat even while Russia sits quietly and says they just want to do business with respect. That 'Russian Threat' story is being used to encourage the Baltic countries to beef up their military spending (taken from the link below: Czech Republic (+3.7%), Estonia (+7.3%), Latvia (+15%), Lithuania (+50%), Norway (+5.6%), Poland (+20%), Romania (+4.9%), Slovak Republic (+7%), and non-NATO member Sweden (+5.3%).) As these countries proceed to spend way more on military then they should or need to, they are adding to their debt and the potential outcome will be new 'Greek' style situations where the IMF can waltz in, start laying down their rules and cash in yet again. And at the same time, Wester and European countries are scaling back their spending.

Greeces biggest lenders were the government of Germany and France and most of the money that was loaned to Greece was spent on weapons from Germany (25%), France (13%) and American (42%). This sentence really hit the 'obscene' button, wherein Greek Parliamentarian Dimitris Papadimoulis said, " Well after the economic crisis had begun in 2010, Germany and France were trying to seal lucrative arms deals even as they were pushing us to make deep cuts in areas like health care.

So maybe it's time to quit ripping on the Greek citizens folks.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/07/01/marketing-russian-threat/



I think I've posted here before that the military industrial complex in America has profited to the tune of 27,699% over the last 50 years, compared to industry in general whose profits hover around 6700%. The military lobbyists have been hard at work and haven't quit yet apparently. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-so...-soaring-costs-of-military-casualties/5388393
 
I agree.... It's the same concept as the banks blaming the housing bubble causing our great recession on the homeowner.. when in fact it was THEY who profited by the buying and selling of those bad mortgages.

Same thing here.. and the Military industrial complex is not solely American.. there are huge multinationals involved. Just more of the same thing.. Corporations and banks making a fortune and expecting the taxpayer to shoulder the burden when it goes south.
 
From everything that I have read or heard on the TV is that it would not be a shocker if Greece defaults on their payments to the IMF and the ECB. If they should default on their payments, it may or would have a major effect on the Euro. Yes? No? If Greece would default and by doing so it would make a major hit on the Euro, wouldn't world markets be effected? I don't have enough education in economics to be able to sort through this, but it all sounds logical to me that the Euro taking a hit could/would have a major impact on world markets, including the U.S. Even the stock markets could be severely effected, or at least I would expect them to be.
 
I agree.... It's the same concept as the banks blaming the housing bubble causing our great recession on the homeowner.. when in fact it was THEY who profited by the buying and selling of those bad mortgages.

Same thing here.. and the Military industrial complex is not solely American.. there are huge multinationals involved. Just more of the same thing.. Corporations and banks making a fortune and expecting the taxpayer to shoulder the burden when it goes south.


You're right, other countries also sell weapons. But I think the report that Morgan Stanley did referred to American military corporations, and showed that they'd profited to the tune of 27,699%. And according to the article that I linked, America, Germany and France were Greeces biggest suppliers of military hardware to combat a 'mythical' Turkish threat even as they were also the major lenders to buy those weapons! What's really bizarre is that Turkey has been a member of NATO since 1952. So was it other NATO members who were busy encouraging Greece's fears so that they would then borrow more money to buy more weapons to protect themselves from another NATO member? Do you get the ethical obscenity of it all if that's the case?

I'm telling you, the longer I read these kinds of articles and see the collusion and manipulations and the tangled web of lies and deceit that is and has gone on for decades, the more blown away I am! And the average citizen (until the advent of the internet) has been suckered by it all!
 
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From everything that I have read or heard on the TV is that it would not be a shocker if Greece defaults on their payments to the IMF and the ECB. If they should default on their payments, it may or would have a major effect on the Euro. Yes? No? If Greece would default and by doing so it would make a major hit on the Euro, wouldn't world markets be effected? I don't have enough education in economics to be able to sort through this, but it all sounds logical to me that the Euro taking a hit could/would have a major impact on world markets, including the U.S. Even the stock markets could be severely effected, or at least I would expect them to be.


I've been listening for the last few weeks to a business channel and it seems like opinion is split. Some say it'll affect Europe but have little impact on North American markets and there are some who think it's an issue and some of those think it depends on the sector (like banking).
 
Early estimates say Greece has voted "NO" on a bailout.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...-results-landslide-win-for-no-vote-in-greece/

Some of things I've read about Greece is a lot of businesses are not taxed, not about how much but aren't taxed period, the government does little to nothing with thousands of smaller businesses there. The give generous government retirement benefits that literally make the Germans jealous, enough to put restrictive conditions on a loan. People forget that Germany has a lot of old communist block East Germans who know what is a socialist looks like and if they are not getting theirs they sure as heck are not going to approve someone else's. There are too many problems though for one solution or referendum to work.
 
The Votes are almost all counted now and it's a Big Fat NO!! ...now what's going to happen?..are they gonna get kicked out of the EU? all of us especially in Europe will be waiting with baited breath for the next move..:eek:
 
Not kicked out of the EU but possibly the Euro Zone (currency).
It will be interesting to see what happens next.
I think they just called the money world's bluff.
 
Our Sydney Morning Herald had this story this morning..
This is a triumph for Greece's anti-austerity party Syriza
The referendum result allows Greece's government to draw a line beyond which it simply cannot be pushed by the rest of Europe, and by lenders such as the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
1436153237278.jpg
Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tspiras after Greeks voted overwhelmingly "No" in a historic bailout referendum. Photo: Reuters

This gives it power in Brussels. Syriza still cannot force Europe to offer a better deal, but Europe now knows: if there is not a better deal, there will be no deal.
Most commentators thought Syriza had shot itself in the foot by calling a referendum on the bailout package, then pushing hard for a "No".
Its opponents claimed that "No" would mean leaving the euro; it would mean isolation, inflation, more unemployment, more recession.
A strong "Yes" vote would have sent the message that the voters believed this interpretation. It would have left Syriza practically spent as a political force: discredited and rejected.
But most "No" voters, according to polls, accepted Syriza's version of the narrative: this was not a referendum on the euro.
It was a determination to return to Brussels and demand that, if there was to be a financial rescue, it would be on (or closer to) Greece's terms.
Their message to Brussels was clear: find another way. Or we'll just have to try it ourselves.
This is a disaster for Syriza's opponents
Inside and outside Greece, many politicians and institutional leaders were dismissive of Syriza. They saw Greece's government as amateur radicals, unprepared for the big stage. They bet the referendum would prove their undoing. They particularly wanted to see the back of Yanis Varoufakis, the arrogant, confrontational Finance Minister.
Their bluff has been called.
Inside Greece, the conservative former Greek prime minister Antonis Samaras has already fallen on his sword, stepping down as leader of the New Democracy party.
There is no "government-in-waiting" for those who hoped Syriza would be a short interregnum between centrist leaders.
Outside Greece, those who insisted that "No" would mean the end of efforts to prop up Greece's economy now face a test: did they mean it?
It is still entirely within Europe's power to release the funds promised to Greece, under more generous terms.
The negotiations over a rescue package will resume and so will the grandstanding on both sides.
But this time Syriza can play a stronger hand.
The chance of a "Grexit" is now much higher
Greece's banks are on the brink of collapse, as money flees the country for safer harbours. The vote doesn't change that.
There is no rescue deal, so there is no guarantee the European Central Bank will release funds to prop up the banks.
Until it does so, Greece has a crippling shortage of cash, which is needed to buy imports such as food and medicine, all of which makes the prospect of a Greek exit from the euro (or Grexit) more likely.
Sooner or later, without more euros, the country will have to create an alternative to the euro. It could be called a government IOU, or it could be called a drachma. Practically, the name doesn't matter.
Without more cash from overseas, the Greek currency will have to change.
The chance of debt relief is now much higher
The debate over the referendum, within and outside Greece, was partly over whether the current strategy for turning the country's economy around was truly working.
But new IMF projections, released this week, could be translated as "tell 'em they're dreaming".
Very few economists convincingly argue that Greece can cover its debts, now or in the future.
And it is clear that, even if a more extreme austerity might put Greece on track for a long-term recovery without debt relief, its citizens simply will not accept that plan.
This is what Syriza was trying to argue in Brussels, without success. It can now argue the case more forcefully, with fresh evidence. Debt relief is firmly on the table.
Nationalism is still on the rise
Anti-European voices are already claiming this as the moment the European project failed.
It's too simplistic an interpretation. Many of the "No" voters in Greece still want to stay in Europe, and in the euro.
But, if this referendum wins debt relief, or a kinder rescue package for Greece, then countries such as Spain, Italy and Portugal will be asking: "What about us?"
The political calculus is clear: vote for radical populists, get a better deal. The next few years could see European federalism dealt a fatal blow.
However, this is just one interpretation. There is an alternative argument: that the case of Greece proves that the only way the euro can work is with tighter financial integration.
There are some in Greece - and elsewhere - who hope Europe will change fundamentally. There will be a "mutualisation" of debt, rather than continued rescue packages. The "ever closer union" will be accelerated rather than stalled.
Greece is going to face another tough week
Until Europe sorts out its response to the referendum, or the European Central Bank reverses its current policy, Greece's long bank holiday will almost certainly continue.
ATM withdrawal limits are likely to fall again. The first reports of food shortages have already begun, they are likely to worsen. Imported medicines will be harder to come by for GPs and hospitals.
Many businesses have been paralysed by the restrictions on sending money overseas (ie, to buy imported goods), and by the reluctance of Greeks to spend the cash that is so hard to come by.
Tourists will think twice before going on holiday in a country where food and cash are reportedly in short supply.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/greeces-no-vote-what-happens-now-20150706-gi5r4t
 
They just voted themselves over the cliff...

I don't know. One can't keep on racking up debt looking for ways to pay it rather than change spending habits. It's like paying credit cards with other credit cards. Sooner or later the wallet has no more cards in it.

Funny how two World Wars and a Cold War were fought to prevent a forced unification of Europe and now many experts are espousing the EU or European Union as the only way.
 
Congratulations to the Greeks on their resounding NO vote. I like Krugman's metaphor likening the European creditors, the troika, to medieval doctors who insisted on bleeding their patients — and when their treatment made the patients sicker, demanded even more bleeding. A “yes” vote in Greece would have condemned the country to years more of suffering under policies that haven’t worked and in fact, given the arithmetic, can’t work: austerity probably shrinks the economy faster than it reduces debt, so that all the suffering serves no purpose. The landslide victory of the “no” side offers at least a chance for an escape from this trap.
 
They will do what they should have done months ago. They will do what the German Government asked them to do: Submit a proposal on their worthiness to gain access to further aid.
 


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