Your body, my choice. A question for women.

[carouselsilver]

Does it?

In order for you to decide whether to label yourself as a feminist you'd first need to procalim what a feminst is. If you represent what you think a feminist is then I guess you are a feminist. But if you represent somethng else then I guess you're not.

I'm not trying to decide whether to label myself. I am more interested in why when someone remarks about feminists, they always seem unhappy about it. I'm a female and that is label enough.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

While I understand your optimism, it’s important to address the stark practical realities here. The idea that women could seamlessly step into all the roles currently dominated by men and maintain the same standard of living is simply unrealistic. The physical and technical demands of industries like heavy construction, energy production, and aircraft manufacturing require not just individual competence but a workforce of sufficient scale, experience, and capability. This workforce doesn’t currently exist among women, nor could it be built quickly enough to avoid a catastrophic decline in societal infrastructure.

Let’s be clear: this isn’t about whether individual women can learn to weld, operate heavy machinery, or fabricate complex systems. Some undoubtedly can, and a few already do. But the percentage of women who choose these fields, excel in them, and have the physical strength and endurance required is minuscule compared to men. This is not a matter of tradition or prejudice—it’s a reflection of biological differences and career preferences, which cannot simply be willed away.

The reality is that modern society, with all its conveniences, is underpinned by male-dominated industries that women, on their own, would struggle to sustain at the same level. Producing and maintaining aircraft, for example, is not just about training; it demands an ongoing supply of highly skilled professionals who can work under grueling conditions to uphold safety and efficiency. The infrastructure, logistics, and expertise required are overwhelmingly maintained by men, and their absence would lead to an unavoidable collapse of these systems.

Even if women stepped in to fill the gap, the time required to train enough of them, combined with the physical toll and sheer scale of the work, would result in a standard of living far below what society currently enjoys. Simply put, the easy life many women take for granted today would not exist without the contributions of men in these critical sectors.

It’s fine to argue that women can adapt, but adaptation doesn’t mean parity in outcomes or standards. The world we live in today was built largely on the back of male labor, ingenuity, and sacrifice. Removing that foundation would leave an irreplaceable void that cannot be filled overnight—or perhaps at all.

My niece is an Airplane mechanic

 

[carouselsilver]

My niece is an Airplane mechanic

I love this. It always amazes me that a typical wife and mother, who is responsible for multitasking all that goes into raising a family, is viewed with doubt if she takes on roles that are traditionally male oriented. If you have two hands and a brain, lots of things are possible.

 

[Inept]

.... I am more interested in why when someone remarks about feminists, they always seem unhappy about it. ......

I think I can answer that question sufficiently. "Women's rights" seemed like a good idea even to me, an old fuddy duddy born in 1947. I doubt my grandfather would have agreed, however.

Anyway, the idea of equal rights for women grew and it felt right to me. But it grew more and more and more. Fast forward just a little bit and it occurred to me that men could be conscripted in to the military but not women. Hmmmmm, something was wrong with that. But that is only the tip of the iceberg and it goes beyond women being "allowed" to punch a man but he not being allowed to punch back. Women get custody of the children in most divorce cases. Do you see where I am going with this?

Some years ago there was a milk carton encouraging children to report their parents for physical abuse. That's a good idea but it further asked, "Does your father hit you?" Men automatically get the blame for domestic violence "no matter what". Just a couple of years ago I saw this sticker on a lamppost so I had to take a photo and save it:



***** I have seen enough of this crap. Feminism? Phooey!

 

[Warrigal]

I think I can answer that question sufficiently. "Women's rights" seemed like a good idea even to me, an old fuddy duddy born in 1947. I doubt my grandfather would have agreed, however.

I was born in 1943 and my maternal grandfather believed in education for girls. Consequently my mum believed in a good education for my sister and myself. I think my Pop was a man who was perhaps ahead of his time.

Anyway, the idea of equal rights for women grew and it felt right to me. But it grew more and more and more. Fast forward just a little bit and it occurred to me that men could be conscripted in to the military but not women. Hmmmmm, something was wrong with that. But that is only the tip of the iceberg and it goes beyond women being "allowed" to punch a man but he not being allowed to punch back. Women get custody of the children in most divorce cases. Do you see where I am going with this?

Conscription of men in times of war is a choice. First you conscript the youngest, fittest males, later the older men. Women are given support roles in the military and the home front. Nurses are all volunteers, as are other medical personnel. It is that way for pragmatic reasons when the nation's future is in jeopardy. During peace time there is no need for conscription.

Modern armies are very professional organisations and don't rely on unwilling conscripts. Men and women are both welcome provided they bring something of value and also pass the fitness tests.

Since when are women allowed to punch men? I must has missed that memo. I'm 5 foot 1 inch tall and wouldn't dare to punch anyone. If attacked, my only defence would be to scream at the top of my voice hoping some brave passersby would stop and help.

The days of mothers being automatically granted custody of their children are long past. Issues of Kids and Cash must be sorted out by negotiation before a divorce decree is granted. If the kids are old enough they have some say in the matter as well.

Some years ago there was a milk carton encouraging children to report their parents for physical abuse. That's a good idea but it further asked, "Does your father hit you?" Men automatically get the blame for domestic violence "no matter what". Just a couple of years ago I saw this sticker on a lamppost so I had to take a photo and save it:

View attachment 384382

***** I have seen enough of this crap. Feminism? Phooey!

Domestic violence is a fact. Someone in the family is being violent to one or more other family members. It's not an assumption as to who the aggressor is, it is a matter of fact. I find it hard to imagine that when a mother is being abusive towards her children, it is the father who gets the blame. However, when a father is beating his wife, the children live in fear, and it is no wonder that they choose to live with the mother after separation.

You need to think more deeply about the complexities of these issues.

 

[Nathan]

Your body, my choice

What kind of silly little man-boy slob would even think this?

 

[carouselsilver]

Indeed these issues can be complex. If people just treated each other the way in which they would like to be treated, half of that complexity would go away. No one has the right to hit anyone, period. We are all first and foremost, human beings. All the labeling and blaming brings in the complexities.

 

[chic]

What kind of silly little man-boy slob would even think this?

An Incel. An Incel is a celibate heterosexual male who wants to pair up with a heterosexual female but doesn't.

 

[dilettante]

As opposed to a simp, who pays uncritical lipservice to women hoping to gain favor.

Or a femcel, who can't figure out why she has become invisible to men.

 

[dilettante]

5 Signs That A Woman Has Hit The Wall — Salt Lake Single Guy

 

[PeppermintPatty]

I love this. It always amazes me that a typical wife and mother, who is responsible for multitasking all that goes into raising a family, is viewed with doubt if she takes on roles that are traditionally male oriented. If you have two hands and a brain, lots of things are possible.

Indeed but women ARE the ultimate multi taskers.

 

[Nathan]

An Incel. An Incel is a celibate heterosexual male who wants to pair up with a heterosexual female but doesn't.

Ah, have seen that term but wasn't interested enough to make inquires. Just now googled it:

noun
noun: incel; plural noun: incels

1. a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile toward women and men who are sexually

Yea, I've seen such groupings of young men, attracted to abuse of women and small animals, attracted to such groups as the Proud Boys and various Nazi-like groups. Immature, low self esteem, poor intelligent quotient.

 

[dilettante]

Yeah, yeah, nothing like placing the most toxic interpretation possible on a neologism.

Simp derives from simpleton, by the way.

 

[AnnieA]

You are right, but think of the women in the Middle East. They would not even dare to ask this question.

The title made me think of women in Islamic ruled countries as well ...ME and Africa. I'm not sure in some of the cultures women would even think to ask the question. Many have no age of consent for marital sex which means sanctioned child rape.

As for the US, I haven't noticed any difference locally. I'm more afraid to travel to cities than I used to be and in thinking about it, it's not women in urban areas I fear.

 

[oslooskar]

My niece is an Airplane mechanic

That’s great to hear about your niece—it’s commendable that she’s succeeded in such a demanding field. However, the issue isn’t about individual examples of women excelling in these areas; it’s about the overall scale and workforce composition required to sustain industries like aviation, heavy construction, and energy production. While individual women can and do thrive in these roles, the percentage of women entering, staying in, and physically thriving in such fields remains relatively small compared to men.

The challenges arise when we consider maintaining these industries at a societal level. It’s not about whether some women can do the work—they clearly can—but whether there are enough women with the interest, ability, and endurance to maintain the sheer scale and demands of these industries without a significant drop in output or standards. That’s the crux of the issue.

 

[Inept]

You need to think more deeply about the complexities of these issues.

I think it is you who needs it.

 

[Rakaia]

Was speaking to author of post above mine

I have a couple of pet peeves, one being put a link to an article or video in place of an argued point. If they can't be bothered to make their point why should I bother to see if the link makes it for them.
The other is when people reply to other people's posts without specifying who they are replying to. @Pepper this one's for you.

 

[Della]

5 Signs That A Woman Has Hit The Wall — Salt Lake Single Guy

Wow. I read that whole thing and the undertone of hatred toward all women was palpable, from the teenager whom the creepy author seemed to find most attractive, to the old women who he finds abhorrent. This sort of man, who feels such extreme resentment against beautiful women who might use their looks to get free meals to the older ones whom he sees as barely deserving to live, is really rather frightening.

Didn't these men have mothers? We're they not given life through their mothers excruciating pain and kept alive into adulthood by her? Did he have sisters? Did he see them crying when the boys they liked didn't like them back? Were they the boys in high school who only liked the cheerleaders and said mean things to the plainer girls? Did they begin their misogynist careers by hating the cheerleaders for preferring the football players?

Maybe it's time for these men to grow up and realize that both sexes have something to contribute and all humans are just looking for a little love and security.

 

[Pepper]

Some very pathetic men live here on SF; some very wonderful men, too. They know who they are, maybe they don't. The women know. Sad. Wonderful post, @Della.

 

[Mr. Ed]

I wish I could answer that question.

People are human with flaws

 

[Mr. Ed]

I appreciate your enthusiasm in highlighting women’s contributions during WWII, but as with Chic’s argument, this comparison oversimplifies the realities of sustaining modern society versus responding to a temporary wartime crisis. You mention British women working in factories two years before American women and that 'we won the war.' That’s true—they contributed significantly to the war effort, as did women across Allied nations. However, their roles during the war were, by and large, supplemental rather than foundational. Women stepped into jobs temporarily vacated by men, working within systems, machines, and processes that were overwhelmingly designed, built, and maintained by men before and after the war. The photos of women working with machines don’t undermine this point—they reinforce it. Those factories, tools, and production systems existed because of decades of innovation, infrastructure, and labor dominated by men. Women operated the machines, often under strict instructions and supervision, but they didn’t create the infrastructure, nor did they sustain it long-term. Once the war ended, most women left these roles, and men resumed the positions that required ongoing physical endurance, technical expertise, and risk tolerance. Winning WWII was a collective effort, no doubt, but it hinged on a military-industrial complex largely built and maintained by men. Women’s contributions were critical in supporting that complex during a temporary crisis, but they don’t demonstrate the ability to sustain a modern society entirely on their own, especially in industries requiring long-term physical and technical labor.The point stands: women’s adaptability in stepping into these roles during wartime is admirable, but it doesn’t prove that women could, on their own, maintain the standard of living we enjoy today. It simply isn’t a like-for-like comparison.

How about some line breaks? It would make reading your post much easier.

 

[January]

The challenges arise when we consider maintaining these industries at a societal level. It’s not about whether some women can do the work—they clearly can—but whether there are enough women with the interest, ability, and endurance to maintain the sheer scale and demands of these industries without a significant drop in output or standards. That’s the crux of the issue.

There are when there have to be - as posters showed happened during WW2 for instance when so many men were not there

Over time we are now seeing more and more women in non traditional jobs (and conversely men in non traditional men's jobs) It has only been culture and circumstance that has prevented this in the past, not some intrinsic superior ability or endurance thing..

 

[Inept]

People are human with flaws

You don't really think I'm going to scroll, and scroll, and scroll back to find out what you're referring to, do you? Do you know how to "quote" and "reply"?

 

[chic]

Ah, have seen that term but wasn't interested enough to make inquires. Just now googled it:



Yea, I've seen such groupings of young men, attracted to abuse of women and small animals, attracted to such groups as the Proud Boys and various Nazi-like groups. Immature, low self esteem, poor intelligent quotient.

I agree those groups probably top the list. And they wonder why they don't have any fun with women.

 

[dilettante]

I don't get the issue here.

"Your body, yourself" seems clear enough. It should be reassuring that men have no interest in it.