Does the Book of Job explain the current news?

[Sunny]

Tommy:
Every time the world faces a major challenge we see some technological advances that carry forward to our benefit. Perhaps in the area of medicine or manufacturing or communications.

And Almighty God will still be in control, weaving the foibles and foolishness of mankind into His perfect plan.

And then, Job got into the picture.

Although discussing Job is not exactly "current news and hot topics," it was suggested as an answer as to what the world will be like in the aftermath of Covid-19. So I thought it might be worth a thread in its own right.

From what I remember, Job is a heartbreaking story of a good man who, through no fault of his own, loses everything and everybody near and dear to him. The Holocaust comes to mind. He furiously demands an explanation from God, who basically says, "I don't have to explain anything to you."

My question is, can theology offer any explanations for the existence of a devastating illness? Are God and/or the devil even part of the explanation? It seems to me that these questions are in the area of "why," and are philosophical, and discussions of dealing with the disease (and its aftermath) are in the realm of science. Apples and oranges.

This came about because Tommy (see the part in italics above) introduced philosophy and religion into the discussion, and fmdog mischievously asked if this is the Almighty God who created all this devastation.

So, I guess my question is: Should we consider this illness to be part of God's will? If God set us up to be destroyed for reasons of His own, is it appropriate to take vaccines? Of course, we can always say, "The vaccines were also part of God's plan." Does religion even have any answers for us?

 

[fuzzybuddy]

I was waiting for this. Was Covid-19 God's wrath? I'm an atheist, so you can guess my answer. WWI was God's wrath. WWII was God's wrath. AIDS was God's wrath. To be honest, I'm surprised there aren't many religious claiming Covid-19 is God's wrath for gay marriage, etc.. But to answer Sunny, a deity would not create the means to avoid death, illness, and destruction, if they weren't to be used. It's like having brakes on a car. It's of little use to add them to cars, if you aren't going to use them, when needed.

 

[Judycat]

Maybe trying to live a perfect life isn't the thing to strive for since that's what got Job into trouble in the first place, and the moral is, look out, sometimes things in life are really going to suck.

 

[chic]

Good question. In the past, plagues were levelers. After the black death of the 14th century, serfdom in Europe, with the exception of Russia, was abolished because it gave those left alive a bargaining chip with their overlords.

Maybe God is like a general. It's all about the the objective and the numbers. Remembering Operation Overlord, thousands of young men were slaughtered by the Germans on the beaches of Normandy. This seems cruel and callous to the extreme, yet if Hitler had lived and succeeded, how many MILLIONS would have died?

I'm not a philosopher nor a theologian, and God doesn't have to explain to us why He does what He does. But I do wonder if we are meant to see things differently as a result of this virus? How small and helpless we really are in the face of such a catastrophe. What we are doing isn't working, so we need to change something about our world and ourselves. This is as far as my thinking takes me.

 

[chic]

Good question. In the past, plagues were levelers. After the black death of the 14th century, serfdom in Europe, with the exception of Russia, was abolished because it gave those left alive a bargaining chip with their overlords.

Maybe God is like a general. It's all about the the objective and the numbers. Remembering Operation Overlord, thousands of young men were slaughtered by the Germans on the beaches of Normandy. This seems cruel and callous to the extreme, yet if Hitler had lived and succeeded, how many MILLIONS would have died?

I'm not a philosopher nor a theologian, and God doesn't have to explain to us why He does what He does. But I do wonder if we are meant to see things differently as a result of this virus? How small and helpless we really are in the face of such a catastrophe. What we are doing isn't working, so we need to change something about our world and ourselves. This is as far as my thinking takes me. But I do believe God did not create man to die or to be sick, yet we all do. That's where I think evil comes into the picture. Satan is death, the angel of death. Satan brings war illness and destruction using man as his instrument. I don't think it's against God's will to take medicine or a vaccine to prevent suffering. Jesus always healed the sick.

 

[Aneeda72]

Hmm, The Book of Job, does it come in paperback? Can I get it from Amazon?

First you have to decide what god you are talking about. The god of the Old Testament or Jesus Christ. Or one of the other gods that are worshiped by people who are not Christians. Which specific god or gods wanted to kill off all his/her worshipers?

Then the devil, define who is the devil-the christian devil or some other devil of some other religion. Then which version of the Bible and which version of the book of Job should be reading to discuss this.

Oh, and nothing about the Bible, a book written long ago by old men, is current.

If you believe that god created the earth and everything in it and on it then god created the virus. The virus acts like a virus. like dogs act like dogs, like veggies act like veggies, like everything made or imagined acts or doesn’t act like it should.

Oh, dear, what was this thread about, hmm. .

Does the Bible explain current news? You mean like the election, the winning lottery numbers, the virus, the virus vaccine, why does my stupid stomach hurt so bad? NOPE, the Bible does not and neither does the Book of Job, IMO.

 

[peramangkelder]

God and whatever or whoever you believe Him/Her/It to be did not create this Coronavirus Covid19
He/She/It created us apparently in His/Her/Its own image and gave us free will and a reasonably competent brain
We created this horror....we create most horrors that are foisted on the World then look for someone else to blame
We are also creating a vaccine for this horror so the Almighty does indeed 'move in mysterious ways his wonders to perform'
The Almighty gives and the Almighty takes and we are weak and the Almighty forgives us our sins and transgressions
BTW I am not religious in the true sense but I do believe in a Higher Power

 

[Warrigal]

My understanding of this book is that it is written in the form of a debate. It is an allegory about suffering and whether it has any meaning or not. Even in my lifetime some people still thought that suffering is a punishment from God for some sinfulness committed by the sufferer or their family (in OT language - the house of Job etc) This was the ancient explanation for disease, congenital defects, plagues, earthquakes, volcanos and climatic disasters like drought and floods. This is why the gods needed to be appeased.

Why would a righteous and obedient servant of Jehovah be made to suffer? Would suffering cause him to lose his faith? These are the underlying issues being addressed by the writer of the Book of Job.

It's a long time since I read this book in its entirety and I confess I was in my cups at the time, but unless we look deeply into these issues it makes as much sense as the story of Jonah, the reluctant and very sulky prophet. But that is another debate for another time.

 

[Butterfly]

Tommy:
Every time the world faces a major challenge we see some technological advances that carry forward to our benefit. Perhaps in the area of medicine or manufacturing or communications.

And Almighty God will still be in control, weaving the foibles and foolishness of mankind into His perfect plan.

And then, Job got into the picture.

Although discussing Job is not exactly "current news and hot topics," it was suggested as an answer as to what the world will be like in the aftermath of Covid-19. So I thought it might be worth a thread in its own right.

From what I remember, Job is a heartbreaking story of a good man who, through no fault of his own, loses everything and everybody near and dear to him. The Holocaust comes to mind. He furiously demands an explanation from God, who basically says, "I don't have to explain anything to you."

My question is, can theology offer any explanations for the existence of a devastating illness? Are God and/or the devil even part of the explanation? It seems to me that these questions are in the area of "why," and are philosophical, and discussions of dealing with the disease (and its aftermath) are in the realm of science. Apples and oranges.

This came about because Tommy (see the part in italics above) introduced philosophy and religion into the discussion, and fmdog mischievously asked if this is the Almighty God who created all this devastation.

religion even have any answers for uSo, I guess my question is: Should we consider this illness to be part of God's will? If God set us up to be destroyed for reasons of His own, is it appropriate to take vaccines? Of course, we can always say, "The vaccines were also part of God's plan." Does religion have any answers for us?

I am a practicing Lutheran. That said, I do not believe that in the post New Testament world God goes around sending plagues and floods every time He is displeased with us. Were that true, He would probably have wiped us off the face of the earth way back in time.

We are living in a physical world, day to day bound by the rules of science and nature. So my answer is, as Sunny posited, "Apples and oranges."

 

[fmdog44]

Science cures not God.

 

[Warrigal]

Not quite the full picture, fmdog. Science helps us find more effective treatments but it is our own immune systems that have to deal with most pathogens. In the days before the discovery (note I didn't say invention) of penicillin, factors that influenced whether or not a patient recovered were things like having a strong constitution, being well nourished and being able to rest. Staying away from doctors and surgeons was not such a bad idea either.

Not sure about God, but having faith and hope does bring certain advantages at times.

 

[Aneeda72]

Not quite the full picture, fmdog. Science helps us find more effective treatments but it is our own immune systems that have to deal with most pathogens. In the days before the discovery (note I didn't say invention) of penicillin, factors that influenced whether or not a patient recovered were things like having a strong constitution, being well nourished and being able to rest. Staying away from doctors and surgeons was not such a bad idea either.

Not sure about God, but having faith and hope does bring certain advantages at times.

Since penicillin, as I remember is mold, I wonder how many people, in the past, cured themselves by eating moldy cheese unknowingly. I remember as a child when there was mold on cheese we would cut the mold off, and still eat the cheese. We now know that mold goes all the way through what it grows on whether you can see it or not.

It never made us sick. But now we would throw moldy cheddar cheese away.

 

[chic]

My understanding of this book is that it is written in the form of a debate. It is an allegory about suffering and whether it has any meaning or not. Even in my lifetime some people still thought that suffering is a punishment from God for some sinfulness committed by the sufferer or their family (in OT language - the house of Job etc) This was the ancient explanation for disease, congenital defects, plagues, earthquakes, volcanos and climatic disasters like drought and floods. This is why the gods needed to be appeased.

Why would a righteous and obedient servant of Jehovah be made to suffer? Would suffering cause him to lose his faith? These are the underlying issues being addressed by the writer of the Book of Job.

It's a long time since I read this book in its entirety and I confess I was in my cups at the time, but unless we look deeply into these issues it makes as much sense as the story of Jonah, the reluctant and very sulky prophet. But that is another debate for another time.

Sorry. This shouldn't be here. Forgive.

 

[chic]

@Sunny Did you ever read the book When Bad Things Happen to Good People written by Rabbi Harald Kushner? His son Aaron had progeria and he tackled the subject of Job's suffering in his book. It's worth a read or a reread during this time.

Basically he believed that Job's friends did not help the situation by insisting Job had done something to deserve his fate, but rather they were afraid for themselves due to the arbitrariness of the situation as exemplified by Job's pain and loss. It could happen to anyone and maybe none of us deserve this. It just happens.

 

[chic]

Not quite the full picture, fmdog. Science helps us find more effective treatments but it is our own immune systems that have to deal with most pathogens. In the days before the discovery (note I didn't say invention) of penicillin, factors that influenced whether or not a patient recovered were things like having a strong constitution, being well nourished and being able to rest. Staying away from doctors and surgeons was not such a bad idea either.

Not sure about God, but having faith and hope does bring certain advantages at times.

In my own experience, it had positive results all the time. There is a connection between fear/negativity and illness. Hope and belief are critical to successful outcomes.

 

[Gary O']

Hell is not a physical place. It's a separation from all that is comforting and good about life, all that brings fulfillment.

Yes, the separation from God

My question is, can theology offer any explanations for the existence of a devastating illness? Are God and/or the devil even part of the explanation?

It's just God's removal of Himself
He withdraws for a reason
Letting mankind have at themselves for a bit

 

[Sunny]

Thanks to all for the very interesting answers. I think all the ideas you've expressed are thoughtful and certainly worthy of exploration.

Chic, I did read Rabbi Kushner's book when it first came out. I was intrigued by the title, but don't remember the ideas in the book ringing any bells for me. I guess the bottom line is that sh.. er, bad stuff just happens.

What really intrigued me about this original subject was Tommy's line:
And Almighty God will still be in control, weaving the foibles and foolishness of mankind into His perfect plan.

This can be read several different ways. Either God is anthropomorphized, imagining Him as a puppetmaster pulling the strings, or

it is poetic symbolism, describing the universe and everything in it as part of a "plan."

Which is still anthropomorphizing, I guess. Humans make "plans." Do plans even exist when there is no past, present, or future, only what "is?"

But if "Almighty God" is conceived of as a mathematical equation or a scientific principle, which is the way I look at it, then maybe that principle is in control. God is not a kindly and loving, or a despotic and cruel tyrant, it (not he) is the reality that governs this unimaginably huge universe. (Of which Covid-19 is a very tiny, insignificant part, important only to us tiny microbes crawling around on this planet.)

 

[chic]

Thanks to all for the very interesting answers. I think all the ideas you've expressed are thoughtful and certainly worthy of exploration.

Chic, I did read Rabbi Kushner's book when it first came out. I was intrigued by the title, but don't remember the ideas in the book ringing any bells for me. I guess the bottom line is that sh.. er, bad stuff just happens.

What really intrigued me about this original subject was Tommy's line:
And Almighty God will still be in control, weaving the foibles and foolishness of mankind into His perfect plan.

This can be read several different ways. Either God is anthropomorphized, imagining Him as a puppetmaster pulling the strings, or

it is poetic symbolism, describing the universe and everything in it as part of a "plan."

Which is still anthropomorphizing, I guess. Humans make "plans." Do plans even exist when there is no past, present, or future, only what "is?"

But if "Almighty God" is conceived of as a mathematical equation or a scientific principle, which is the way I look at it, then maybe that principle is in control. God is not a kindly and loving, or a despotic and cruel tyrant, it (not he) is the reality that governs this unimaginably huge universe. (Of which Covid-19 is a very tiny, insignificant part, important only to us tiny microbes crawling around on this planet.)

Rabbi Kushner drew the conclusion that God is not omnipotent so though He might like to help in some instances He cannot do so. That I did find interesting coming from a practicing Rabbi.

 

[Butterfly]

I believe God could do anything He wanted to, but He chooses not to interfere.

 

[Warrigal]

I once took a one semester course at a theological college. It was titled "God in Creation" and contains some very interesting chapters. We looked at the question of suffering and why God does not eliminate it completely. There were many different lines of thought, some scriptural, some philosophical. One that hit me between the eyes was something like this.

Suppose mankind were to entreat God to remove all forms of cancer because it takes so many lives too soon and it involves unbearable pain. Suppose God did just that. This would be a very good thing but how would we react?

After a while, the suffering of cancer would be forgotten and we would then find some other pain unbearable. Perhaps it would be that we then asked for painless childbirth, or to all live free from arthritis or tooth decay. If one by one God answered all of these prayers, finally humanity would be too soft to endure a splinter in the finger and would become childlike and helpless. We would live in a pain free world but we would no longer be strong and resourceful.

We have within us the capacity to suffer and to understand the suffering of others. We have been gifted with intelligence that we can use to search for treatments and cures, and hearts that understand that kindness in action, empathy and understand of the suffering of others is what drives us to support one another when there is pain, sorrow and despair.

Even if God could remove all suffering, and that is debatable, it might not be good for us as an evolving species.

 

[peramangkelder]

@Warrigal
I have had so much ill health in my life I could have done with half no maybe a quarter of the suffering and still have been me

 

[Butterfly]

I have never seen the benefit of suffering for its own sake. It seems just a bit masochistic to me.

 

[Sunny]

If I had taken that course at the theological college, I would have gone ballistic when presented with that theory. It sounds an awful lot like human rationalization of someone else's cruelty, when one is helpless to do anything about it anyway. Call it the "I'm only punishing you for your own good" theory.

So, our loving Father is beating us with a leather strap because it feels so good when he stops? Or because it will toughen us up and help us to deal with all the other suffering in store for us?

How would we feel about a human boss, leader, head of state, religious figure, whatever, who behaved like that?

 

[Aneeda72]

If I had taken that course at the theological college, I would have gone ballistic when presented with that theory. It sounds an awful lot like human rationalization of someone else's cruelty, when one is helpless to do anything about it anyway. Call it the "I'm only punishing you for your own good" theory.

So, our loving Father is beating us with a leather strap because it feels so good when he stops? Or because it will toughen us up and help us to deal with all the other suffering in store for us?

How would we feel about a human boss, leader, head of state, religious figure, whatever, who behaved like that?

I was beaten with a leather strap (wide leather belt) by my mother, it DOES NOT feel good when it stops. Having swollen bleeding welts over a great deal of your body hurts. It does toughen you up, though. And this has always been a serious question I have had.

Would I be able to tolerate the amount of pain I am in now, without becoming a drug addict or killing myself, if I had not developed an extremely high tolerance of pain due to her repeated beatings over most of my life? I seriously do not know.

I am neutral towards my mother. I never hated her, I’ve never liked her, and I doubt I ever loved her. But, I believe she was my mother. I believe in GOD and Jesus Christ, but I consider the Bible a sort of story book filled with advice which I am free to accept and follow or not.

As for how we would feel about a head of state who acted that way? I suppose it would depend on if you were a so called aryan German or Jewish German.

 

[Sunny]

I was beaten with a leather strap (wide leather belt) by my mother, it DOES NOT feel good when it stops. Having swollen bleeding welts over a great deal of your body hurts. It does toughen you up, though. And this has always been a serious question I have had.

Would I be able to tolerate the amount of pain I am in now, without becoming a drug addict or killing myself, if I had not developed an extremely high tolerance of pain due to her repeated beatings over most of my life? I seriously do not know.

I am neutral towards my mother. I never hated her, I’ve never liked her, and I doubt I ever loved her. But, I believe she was my mother. I believe in GOD and Jesus Christ, but I consider the Bible a sort of story book filled with advice which I am free to accept and follow or not.

As for how we would feel about a head of state who acted that way? I suppose it would depend on if you were a so called aryan German or Jewish German.

I'm sure it does not feel good when it stops, Aneeda. My reference to beating with a leather strap, etc. was an old joke. Back in the days when "moron" was allowed to be said, the joke went: Why did the moron keep beating his head on the wall? Because it felt so good when he stopped.

The answer to human suffering offered by that theological school was similar. God allows horrible, fatal diseases and untold suffering because otherwise we would be too "soft?" What kind of sick nonsense is that? By that logic, God should have never allowed us to discover preventions or cures for smallpox, TB, whooping cough, polio, bubonic plague, leprosy, or any of the other horrific diseases that have been visited upon us. Curing those illnesses has made us childlike and helpless, unable to cope with a splinter in our finger.

Hard to believe that anything that calls itself a "college" would advance ideas like those. If any religion wants to suggest a rationale for the reasons God allows human suffering, they'll have to come up with a better one than that!

(Warrigal, I realize you were just quoting something you had heard, and these were not necessarily your own views.)