Fertility rates, and their decline over time

[grahamg]

I think there's simply an increase in the number of people who see the world as a mess and don't want to bring children into it.

If they do think as you say, and I agree many do, even when you remove those liable to change their minds, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
However, this isn't the complete story, otherwise there would not be women freezing their eggs, or those seeking surrogate mothers, and those of us who do feel we had it ingrained in us, that we wanted s child of our own, regardless of how many see the world as a mess. I will admit you are fearful for your child's future, and what might befall them, including other dads abrogating your position in their lives, and instilling their values, including a mistrust of those of us who did wish the best for them.

 

[Warrigal]

It takes two to begin a pregnancy. Male fertility decreases with age in the same way that a woman's does. Something that is not talked about very much is that male sperm counts at every age have been in decline for decades.

Men’s sperm have been decreasing in number and getting worse at swimming for some time now—and, at least in the United States and Europe, new research says it’s getting worse. A pair of new studies unveiled this week at the Scientific Congress of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine (ASRM) in Denver suggest that American and European men’s sperm count and sperm motility—that is, the “swimming” ability of sperm cells—have declined in the past decade, which follows a similar, broader trend observed by many scientists over the past few decades.

Study: Men's Sperm Counts Continue to Decline - The Atlantic

There are ways to encourage women have more that one baby. One is generous paid maternity leave. Another is subsidised high quality child care. Fathers can help by being supportive of young mothers who are often racked with self doubt and insecurity and may be suffering from post partem depression. Instead of complaining about the state of the house, try picking up the dirty laundry and washing it. Set the table or cook the occasional meal.

A lot of modern couples do these things much more than their parents and grandparents ever did. The difference is that today's couples can choose whether to have a child or not. In my day that was not so easy.

Bearing in mind that it takes a village to raise a child it is a good idea if there are family members nearby who can offer help and support. A woman who is isolated from her support team will find motherhood very hard.

 

[grahamg]

It takes two to begin a pregnancy. Male fertility decreases with age in the same way that a woman's does. Something that is not talked about very much is that male sperm counts at every age have been in decline for decades.



There are ways to encourage women have more that one baby. One is generous paid maternity leave. Another is subsidised high quality child care. Fathers can help by being supportive of young mothers who are often racked with self doubt and insecurity and may be suffering from post partem depression. Instead of complaining about the state of the house, try picking up the dirty laundry and washing it. Set the table or cook the occasional meal.

A lot of modern couples do these things much more than their parents and grandparents ever did. The difference is that today's couples can choose whether to have a child or not. In my day that was not so easy.

Bearing in mind that it takes a village to raise a child it is a good idea if there are family members nearby who can offer help and support. A woman who is isolated from her support team will find motherhood very hard.

My dad did change nappies, and do bottle feeds for his huge brood, and could do a little cooking if needs be, so its always happened to some extent, but he'd got a seven days a week farming business to keep afloat demanding his attention too, so my parents were able to pay a young woman called "Eva" to live in, and assist my mother.
I'm sure you're right about male fertility, and if it isn't too rude a question to raise, my late father and his farming mates, believed men in the 1980s/1990s in the UK were losing their potency in the bedroom department, if you see what I mean(?).

 

[Phoenix]

There were multiple reasons I chose not to have kids. Vietnam was raging. There were riots in the streets, and I thought, it is cruel to bring children into this. I still feel that way. There have always been wars along with poverty for the bulk of the population worldwide. Another reason was the rapid population growth and the planet's inability to sustain life beyond a certain amount. The men I knew went to work, came home and then had time off. Women were on duty with the house and the kids 24/7. It was worse for women who also had a job outside the home. They were still expected to do it all at home. The kids in general were not wonderful. Yes, there were moments of beauty with the kids, but kids by their very nature as they grow up are self-centered for the most part. They have to be in some ways to learn to survive and grow into their own persons. So many people who said their kids were wonderful were highly frustrated by the kids's actions. But the people often overlooked all the negatives and said the kids were wonderful. I understand the reasons for that, but....

Thankfully by the time I was making my decisions there were birth control pills. Otherwise I would have had kids. Abstinence does not work as a birth control method. It only takes one slipup.

One of the things that is decreasing fertility is environmental estrogens. These chemicals are being introduced by industry. With the environmental issues now and global warming the kids born now have a dire future. My original conclusion is correct. Bringing kids into this is cruel.

 

[grahamg]

Your view "Bringing kids into this world is cruel", remains controversial you'd have to admit, because were it universally true then vast numbers are being castigated, whilst my daughter who spends her professional life healing people, must be cruel too, bringing her boys into this world.
Your views why you didn't wish to have children are something I don't wish to question, and I've no reason to believe it was anything other than the right thing to do.

 

[Phoenix]

Your view "Bringing kids into this world is cruel", remains controversial you'd have to admit, because were it universally true then vast numbers are being castigated, whilst my daughter who spends her professional life healing people, must be cruel too, bringing her boys into this world.
Your views why you didn't wish to have children are something I don't wish to question, and I've no reason to believe it was anything other than the right thing to do.

I understand your views. But we are overpopulated. Everything I said has shown itself to be true. Yes, there are good people. People who come into this have to face all the consequences of what has gone on before. It's kind of like having children and accidently sending them to play on the freeway. I'm not saying your daughter purposely had kids to be cruel. I'm sure she's a good person, but that doesn't mean what these kids face is good. It isn't.

 

[Murrmurr]

I think its reasonable too, unless the suggestion were to be the majority of parents could choose to be a parent to someone else's child, and be able to love them like their own, (such people are exceptional in my view).

You may be right. But let's say we tested this theory - put a swaddled baby in the arms of a group of women, do the same with group2, an equal number of men. I think a majority of the women would take the baby home. A majority of the men, on the other hand, would probably look around for its mother.
(tbh, I think I lost the point of this thread (...I just woke up/haven't finished my tea ))

 

[Jeni]

Just to stir the pot ....
I have a friend who is constantly spouting about over population and has made some disturbing suggestions about curtailing births .........
but in the same breath she will say one death in pandemic is too many ...... maybe she does not see the hypocrisy.

I would think those overly concerned with overpopulation must be secretly doing the math on the subtraction side of the equation.

 

[grahamg]

You may be right. But let's say we tested this theory - put a swaddled baby in the arms of a group of women, do the same with group2, an equal number of men. I think a majority of the women would take the baby home. A majority of the men, on the other hand, would probably look around for its mother.
(tbh, I think I lost the point of this thread (...I just woke up/haven't finished my tea ))

"Lets allow one of the mothers on the forum the last word on this and leave it there shall we, because I'm sure I've tied myself in knots, even before you got started" ?
(Oops, look what's happened above, "take a run for it" !)

 

[grahamg]

I understand your views. But we are overpopulated. Everything I said has shown itself to be true. Yes, there are good people. People who come into this have to face all the consequences of what has gone on before. It's kind of like having children and accidently sending them to play on the freeway. I'm not saying your daughter purposely had kids to be cruel. I'm sure she's a good person, but that doesn't mean what these kids face is good. It isn't.

Most would choose life over never being born, and my grandfather on my father's side used to say there were worse things than dying, and he lived through two world wars, that affected him greatly.

 

[Phoenix]

You may be right. But let's say we tested this theory - put a swaddled baby in the arms of a group of women, do the same with group2, an equal number of men. I think a majority of the women would take the baby home. A majority of the men, on the other hand, would probably look around for its mother.
(tbh, I think I lost the point of this thread (...I just woke up/haven't finished my tea ))

If someone put a baby in my arms, I would take care of it, if there was no one else to do it. I was raised to be loving. My husband actually chose to have custody of his children when he got a divorce. When I met him they were young adults. My point is that this is a dangerous world.

Just to stir the pot ....
I have a friend who is constantly spouting about over population and has made some disturbing suggestions about curtailing births .........
but in the same breath she will say one death in pandemic is too many ...... maybe she does not see the hypocrisy.

I would think those overly concerned with overpopulation must be secretly doing the math on the subtraction side of the equation.

Look at these statistics about population growth. Also read what is below.
https://www.theworldcounts.com/chal...-the-planet/world-population-clock-live/story

Most would choose life over never being born, and my grandfather on my father's side used to say there were worse things than dying, and he lived through two world wars, that affected him greatly.

When your grandfather was born the world was not overpopulated. I've lived through horror. I've grown greatly from it. But that does not mean I would want to do it again. It would be unkind

 

[Phoenix]

Mike and the Mechanics - The Living Years

After the week we have had I think the above message is important.

Peace

 

[horseless carriage]

My parents generation, that's the generation that produced the children that became known as the baby boomer generation, were encouraged to do so, with incentives, because so many had died in WW2. Many years later statisticians proved that the death rate during the second world war was around seventy million, the birth rate actually exceeded it.

Such is the inner desire to have babies that even plague, pestilence and war doesn't put people off. Knowing that makes me wonder why I'm so different, the cost emotionally, physically and psychologically far outweigh the financial cost and the latter alone is scary when broken down an analysed over the period before a child leaves home as an adult. It does make feel like I'm some sort of freaky exception.

Reading previous posts about those whose choice was not to have children but later changed their minds, or maybe had a happy "accident", implying that the same could happen to others, made me smile but I didn't respond. When I got married in 1968 the vasectomy was something new. The rules here in the UK for having the procedure meant that a man had to be over thirty, or maybe it was thirty-five, be in a stable marriage, (relationships were not even heard of then,) and have at least four children and after all that he still had to pay for the surgery, it wasn't available on the NHS. Knowing that and knowing that if I asked my doctor, being aged just 22, I would have been sent away with a flea in my ear. However, if I went to a Harley Street surgery, with the King's ransom they asked for, it was a case of, no questions asked.

 

[Phoenix]

My parents generation, that's the generation that produced the children that became known as the baby boomer generation, were encouraged to do so, with incentives, because so many had died in WW2. Many years later statisticians proved that the death rate during the second world war was around seventy million, the birth rate actually exceeded it.

Such is the inner desire to have babies that even plague, pestilence and war doesn't put people off. Knowing that makes me wonder why I'm so different, the cost emotionally, physically and psychologically far outweigh the financial cost and the latter alone is scary when broken down an analysed over the period before a child leaves home as an adult. It does make feel like I'm some sort of freaky exception.

Reading previous posts about those whose choice was not to have children but later changed their minds, or maybe had a happy "accident", implying that the same could happen to others, made me smile but I didn't respond. When I got married in 1968 the vasectomy was something new. The rules here in the UK for having the procedure meant that a man had to be over thirty, or maybe it was thirty-five, be in a stable marriage, (relationships were not even heard of then,) and have at least four children and after all that he still had to pay for the surgery, it wasn't available on the NHS. Knowing that and knowing that if I asked my doctor, being aged just 22, I would have been sent away with a flea in my ear. However, if I went to a Harley Street surgery, with the King's ransom they asked for, it was a case of, no questions asked.

Good for you. I'm glad you did it. Here doctors were paternalistic about whether or not I could have my tubes tied when I was younger. The other options was birth control pills, which I took. They could have given me cancer. So I guess it was determined that is was better for me to possibly get cancer than to neuter myself.

 

[grahamg]

If someone put a baby in my arms, I would take care of it, if there was no one else to do it. I was raised to be loving. My husband actually chose to have custody of his children when he got a divorce. When I met him they were young adults. My point is that this is a dangerous world.

Look at these statistics about population growth. Also read what is below.
https://www.theworldcounts.com/chal...-the-planet/world-population-clock-live/story

When your grandfather was born the world was not overpopulated. I've lived through horror. I've grown greatly from it. But that does not mean I would want to do it again. It would be unkind

If everyone thought as you do, then there would be no human kind left in one generation or lifetime to worry about whatever we've done to the planet, (worrying though I know or agree that is).
I can see why you needed to do as you did, but not why you feel the need to extend your desire for kindness in the world to exclude the possibility for anyone to enjoy children or grandchildren!

 

[Butterfly]

I don't think Phoenix is proselytizing her beliefs about not having children; she is just stating and defending her beliefs and why she chose not to have children. Her right, her choice.

Many women nowdays decide not to have children, for whatever reasons. Thank God for birth control!

 

[grahamg]

I don't think Phoenix is proselytizing her beliefs about not having children; she is just stating and defending her beliefs and why she chose not to have children. Her right, her choice.
Many women nowdays decide not to have children, for whatever reasons. Thank God for birth control!

If that's all she doing, and not in any way decrying those who still choose to have children in spite of her view they're being cruel/unkind, then who could object, not me certainly, and as you may see, this is the view I've consistently put forward on this thread.

 

[Sunny]

Obviously, there's a disconnect between the way we evolved and the options we have no'w. When the average life span was maybe about 40, of course the babies had to come along very early. That's why teenagers and women in their 20's are so fertile.

It does seem to be much more difficult for women a little later on in years to have babies, but many of them do manage to, even in their 40's. Juggling motherhood and a career is never easy, at any stage of the game. One partial solution may be that the fathers now take a more active role in the raising of children than they used to.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

I haven't done any research into true fertility rates, but I believe most Western democracies are getting lower. Experts say it is because of economic and changing social reasons. I guess it comes down to kids cost a lot. And I think it's how you view kids. We think of kids as a drain on our finances. So we try to minimize their negative effect by not having so many. In other nations, usually 3rd World types. kids are seen as providing additional income, as they grow up. So they tend to have more kids.
BTW, as a kid, I heard that my parents got $600 off their taxes for having me.. I figured it was rightfully mine, so I kept asking for it. You're not going to believe this, but they kept it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[grahamg]

Obviously, there's a disconnect between the way we evolved and the options we have no'w. When the average life span was maybe about 40, of course the babies had to come along very early. That's why teenagers and women in their 20's are so fertile.

It does seem to be much more difficult for women a little later on in years to have babies, but many of them do manage to, even in their 40's. Juggling motherhood and a career is never easy, at any stage of the game. One partial solution may be that the fathers now take a more active role in the raising of children than they used to.

The good old days hey, "when men were men", (as my father used to say!).
The repercussions of the development, (or invention) of what was known as "the pill", were more significant than certainly I used to realise.

 

[Phoenix]

BTW, as a kid, I heard that my parents got $600 off their taxes for having me.. I figured it was rightfully mine, so I kept asking for it. You're not going to believe this, but they kept it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, you poor thing. They had to pay all the bills to keep you housed, clothed and fed, and they did all the work, but of course you should have gotten the money.

 

[Phoenix]

If everyone thought as you do, then there would be no human kind left in one generation or lifetime to worry about whatever we've done to the planet, (worrying though I know or agree that is).
I can see why you needed to do as you did, but not why you feel the need to extend your desire for kindness in the world to exclude the possibility for anyone to enjoy children or grandchildren!

The world is radically overpopulated. There is pollution that is destroying all life. We are in the 6th extinction event, and we humans are causing this one. It's accelerating quickly. Bringing someone into this subjects them to starvation and all kinds of awful things, wild fires, floods, etc. stuff that's already been addressed on this site. Would you enjoy seeing your grandchildren starving or burning up in a wildfire? I think not. You think I'm wrong. That is your choice. Mine is to tell it like it is.

 

[grahamg]

The world is radically overpopulated. There is pollution that is destroying all life. We are in the 6th extinction event, and we humans are causing this one. It's accelerating quickly. Bringing someone into this subjects them to starvation and all kinds of awful things, wild fires, floods, etc. stuff that's already been addressed on this site. Would you enjoy seeing your grandchildren starving or burning up in a wildfire? I think not. You think I'm wrong. That is your choice. Mine is to tell it like it is.

Just putting overpopulation of the world to one side, and how on earth anyone might wish to force their will on mothers/women across this world to stop anyone who wished having a baby, we've both grown up over fifty years ago, so during the "Cold war" era.
Annihilation of the planet was talked about a great deal back then, and not all die in a flash, some will linger, many might be left to starve during the "nuclear winter" to follow. When I went to school our teachers taught us "mankind will destroy itself by 2050"!
However, others took a different view, including a very wise old boss of mine, who told me mankind's desire to survive, meant he did not think nuclear Armageddon was going to happen.
Finally, our planet will perhaps always be threatened by asteroids capable of destroying life on earth, and yet somehow we're still here, and knowing this event might happen, or indeed one day our sun will peter out or explode, has not stopped billions of people believing in human life, and seeking to extend it for another generation.

 

[grahamg]

I haven't done any research into true fertility rates, but I believe most Western democracies are getting lower. Experts say it is because of economic and changing social reasons. I guess it comes down to kids cost a lot. And I think it's how you view kids. We think of kids as a drain on our finances. So we try to minimize their negative effect by not having so many. In other nations, usually 3rd World types. kids are seen as providing additional income, as they grow up. So they tend to have more kids.
BTW, as a kid, I heard that my parents got $600 off their taxes for having me.. I figured it was rightfully mine, so I kept asking for it. You're not going to believe this, but they kept it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are all kinds of things playing out when people decide to start a family.

At school I was told about "baby booms" in the post war years, and one student asked the teacher how women might know, or believe they knew, there was a need to increase the population to make up for those lost during the world wars. The answer the teacher said was "no one knows", (or at least he didn't have any ideas anyway).
When there were a series of power failures during a winter in the 1960s, it was reported that there were more pregnancies recorded. The cause here was easy enough to identify, as folks went to bed earlier, when their tv went off, and the electric light was off too, so they couldn't read either to entertain themselves!

 

[horseless carriage]

For couples who decide not to have children the questioning was relentless. I used the past tense was because during the first twenty or so years of our marriage we were asked "when" constantly. It was with well meaning by most but all the same, it felt relentless. We found the way to deflect it was to smile, ignore the question and turn the subject away. Only once can I remember my wife getting cross when someone we know, but not in friendship, asked why we didn't have any children, in a blunt way. Before I could say anything my wife cut him down. "The workings of my uterus is not open for public discussion," she chided, and that shut him up.

In the last thirty years or so, it seems as though there's a growing acceptance for couples to have a choice, or maybe it's because our fertility years are behind us that we don't get asked anymore. There is one exception to that though. When a celebrity reaches middle age it's open season for journalists to speculate why that person is still unmarried or without children. I remember one female journalist berating someone famous and telling them that they will regret it. Years later I learned about the termination that journalist had whilst still at university. Hypocrisy rules.