Says this church sign "...Facts don't matter" ?????

Alligatorob said:
As a "non-believer" (more agnostic than atheist) let me offer an alternative opinion here - On balance I think religion has done and still does our civilization a lot of good. Religion has taught and still teaches us how to treat strangers, and treating strangers civilly was essential to the development of civilization. I agree that religion has lead to some really awful things, but not as often as it has done us good. I like Jered Diamond's thinking on the subject:

and

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/j...e-look-at-religion-over-the-course-of-history
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Hi. Same here. Agnostic, not yet an atheist.

I will watch the videos after I post my reply to you as I'm curious if they would make me change my position.

Yes, I believe religion has contributed to civilization in the field of arts and humanitarian aid.

In terms of civility and morality, ( Thou shall not kill/lie. Honor your parents, etc.)
I think we would have come up with those on our own anyway even without the 10 commandments.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know my Bible too well but the holy book has guidelines on how to treat slaves? And it was us mortals who decided slavery is wrong because of human rights.
 
Jennina said:
Hi. Same here. Agnostic, not yet an atheist. I will watch the videos after I post my reply to you as I'm curious if they would make me change my position.
Yes, I believe religion has contributed to civilization in the field of arts and humanitarian aid. In terms of civility and morality, ( Thou shall not kill/lie. Honor your parents, etc.) I think we would have come up with those on our own anyway even without the 10 commandments.
Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know my Bible too well but the holy book has guidelines on how to treat slaves? And it was us mortals who decided slavery is wrong because of human rights.
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Relieved to hear you don't know your bible too well, (that explains a lot,....., just being cheeky, you know as much as I Gunga Din. :) !).

"We", (whoever we might be considered to be here?), probably did think up the commandments you mentioned, as someone or more likely a group, must have thought them up, and agreed them.

A churchman once told me to try to live your life doing what you wanted to do, and do what you "have to do" when you want to do it!
Many can't do this I know, and in a sense become "wage slaves" don't they, (not quite so bad as the real thing I accept!). However, it won't be diifult to pick out statements you don't like, and no one agrees with today, "BUT" in doing so you'll be ignoring vast, even endless meaning and wisdom.
 
Jennina said:
8) You worked in Oxford? Cool! Did you teach there? ("We're not worthy") You're full of surprises which makes it hard to read you.
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See photos below, (taken a couple of years ago):
Jennina said:
(1) Sorted? Sorta, I guess. You still owe me an example. I still don't get when faith in god matters more than evidence? Cos usually you turn to faith when you don't understand something. Why turn a blind eye on evidence? You have the knowledge in front of you and you choose to be clueless? I can't wrap my head around that. I really want to understand but I can't.

2) Yes you're right. Bach wasn't a stellar example. I'd thought of terrorism but there's a lot of that committed by some religious groups. So, it would have been redundant. I happened to be listening to Bach at the time, so it was a low hanging fruit, so to speak. Same logical reasoning : Take away the composer and the music disappears from the timeline of music history.

3) Now I don't know if there's another Nelson Mandela somewhere; but the Nelson Mandela that I know was a social rights activist not a terrorist. And although, I dont advocate violence, fighting against social injustice is hardly terrorism. I must admit though that one man's terrorist is another man's revolutionist. So, if you're anti apartheid, Mandela was a hero.

4) in general, i totally agree that it's healthy to have different points of view. That's how we progress. . But our differences should encourage discourse with the aim of achieving synthesis and a better understanding of one another; not divide us. I still don't see the benefits of having so many religions with each of them saying they're the only true religion and everyone else will go to hell. Enlighten me.

6) This is my stand on religion, though. You can worship your god if it serves the purpose of making you a "moral person" and giving you peace of mind. But you don't get to kill someone if they're gay in the name of god. You don't get to stop others from using protection if people around them are dying of aids. I'm not saying religion hasn't contributed anything to society. Off the top of my head, they've contributed greatly to the arts and to charity/humanitarian aid. I'm sure there's more.

8) You worked in Oxford? Cool! Did you teach there? ("We're not worthy") You're full of surprises which makes it hard to read you.

Anyway, you owe me an "example" . And should you wish to challenge me further, please note I won't be able to reply promptly these days. Busy with some stuff. But I will reply. Just don't hold your breath. :)

Meantime, stay safe!
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Broad Street, and Balliol college, Mrs. Thatcher was notable student thereDSCF0626 (2).JPG,
(street where Thomas Cranmer was burnt at the stake)

Famous bridge, opposite Bodleian library:
DSCF0630.JPG

University church, (opposite controversial statue of Cecil Rhodes):
DSCF0629.JPG
 
Alligatorob said:
As a "non-believer" (more agnostic than atheist) let me offer an alternative opinion here - On balance I think religion has done and still does our civilization a lot of good. Religion has taught and still teaches us how to treat strangers, and treating strangers civilly was essential to the development of civilization. I agree that religion has lead to some really awful things, but not as often as it has done us good. I like Jered Diamond's thinking on the subject:

and

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/j...e-look-at-religion-over-the-course-of-history
Click to expand...
Thanks for the vid and the article. Very informative. I feel smarter already :)

My previous statement was religion has committed atrocities in the name of God; but at the same time it has done some good such as contributions to the arts and humanitarian aid. Now I can add Diamond's utilitarian functions of religion to my list.

As to whether the good outweighs the bad is another story. Would be interesting to know that.

I wish tho that he had given his views on whether he thought religion should continue to perform those functions or not.
 
grahamg said:
Relieved to hear you don't know your bible too well, (that explains a lot,....., just being cheeky, you know as much as I Gunga Din. :) !).

"We", (whoever we might be considered to be here?), probably did think up the commandments you mentioned, as someone or more likely a group, must have thought them up, and agreed them.
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Ahh that one I know. God gave the ten commandments directly to Moses. (y)
 
Jennina said:
Thanks for the vid and the article. Very informative. I feel smarter already :)
My previous statement was religion has committed atrocities in the name of God; but at the same time it has done some good such as contributions to the arts and humanitarian aid. Now I can add Diamond's utilitarian functions of religion to my list.
As to whether the good outweighs the bad is another story. Would be interesting to know that. I wish tho that he had given his views on whether he thought religion should continue to perform those functions or not.
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What difference would Jared Diamond expressing a view on the future of religion make to anyone, or is it of importance to yourself alone, (and the of a similar mind)?
BTW "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a quote from the bible we could all try to understand. :)
 
grahamg said:
What difference would Jared Diamond expressing a view on the future of religion make to anyone, or is it of importance to yourself alone, (and the of a similar mind)?
BTW "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a quote from the bible we could all try to understand. :)
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Huh? You lost me.

Anyway, I don't have a problem listening to and learning from experts as I understand some people here do based on their posts.
 
LOL, Irwin! I remember that movie. I hope Charleton Heston's acting was better in the rest of it. He kind of looks bored to death.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
It is said that God helps those who help themselves. People who decide they are not going to be cautious because God is going to protect them no matter how foolish they behave are....well...foolish. God didn't say walk out in front of that bus to see if I'll work a miracle and save you from being hit. Better not to step in front of the bus. That pastor is obviously ignorant on so many levels. I wonder how he'll feel when his parishioners get COVID and die?
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The wife of a local pastor made the statement several months ago that she doesn't wear masks or will vaccinate, as her faith will protect her from Covid. Unfortunately, her "faith" didn't protect her mother, who died this past spring.
 
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