Alternative views on the Ukraine war

Paco Dennis

Paco Dennis

SF VIP
Location
Mid-Missouri
With so many different podcasts on YouTube, including the major medias, there are many different angles that countries are viewing this war. I have seen many from all over the world. Many are very biased towards either Ukraine or Russia. I am interested in getting as close to what is really happening there. The goal for me is to find out and then find a way to negotiate a peace treaty ASAP. I am concerned that Americans and others have generally demonized Putin. I am concerned that most countries are not getting involved in this war, they are remaining neutral. I am concerned that if we keep sending heavy military weapons to Ukraine, Russia will not stop it's aggression and has the power to annihilate Ukraine. If pushed to far it could go nuclear. Please stop the "more war" rhetoric. Please stop showing destruction and death pictures and videos. Please start changing your view so that the aggression stops. It is a big mistake to keep pushing the war.
 

I have no control over what is happening in Ukraine....so, I don't stress out over it....just hope it ends fairly soon. I am a bit concerned over the U.S. and the NATO nations continuing to send more weapons to Ukraine....that could easily result in Putin going ballistic, and attacking other nations, which would Screw everyone.....including us.
 
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Ukraine has been embroiled in a civil war over the Donbas since 2014. Why the whole world dropped everything (during times like this, and started warmongering all of a sudden a couple of months ago) should make any thinking person cock an eyebrow. :unsure:
 
Paco Dennis said:
... Please stop the "more war" rhetoric. Please stop showing destruction and death pictures and videos. Please start changing your view so that the aggression stops. It is a big mistake to keep pushing the war.
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That's not going to happen regardless of what we as individuals do since Neocons are a very powerful and nearly permanent fixture in Washington. The term doesn't refer to the American conservative/liberal ideological camps, but refers to war hawks. Many Republicans are openly neocons, but some of the most powerful in the Democratic Party are as well. The Council on Foreign Relations is your clue; they unabashedly dictate foreign policy in Democrat and Republican administrations. The CFR membership is no secret and is listed on their webpage.

This article does an excellent job of tracing Neocon influence from the 90s to their current positions of power though their power structure began before the 90s.


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AnnieA said:
That's not going to happen regardless of what we as individuals do since Neocons are a very powerful and nearly permanent fixture in Washington. The term doesn't refer to the American conservative/liberal ideological camps, but refers to war hawks. Many Republicans are openly neocons, but some of the most powerful in the Democratic Party are as well. The Council on Foreign Relations is your clue; they unabashedly dictate foreign policy in Democrat and Republican administrations. The CFR membership is no secret and is listed on their webpage.

This article does an excellent job of tracing Neocon influence from the 90s to their current positions of power though their power structure began before the 90s.


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I agree , we are powerless to stop this war. But, I can sop looking at the accident, because a whole bunch of life is happening that bypasses the conflict. Maybe we could bypass the conflict type rhetoric here also. We all want the war to stop ASAP. This forum can be a place to start finding the best way to accomplish it.
 
If we allow Putin to take Ukraine, Poland is probably next, and then maybe the Baltic states. He needs to be stopped in his tracks. Right now, he's weak and inept. If we wait for him to regain his strength and rebuild his military, at that point it may be too late.

He needs to be removed from power by whatever means possible before he uses nuclear weapons. That much is clear. I'm hoping that someone is working on that behind the scenes. Israel, perhaps?
 
What I am worried about is the Statement Putin made Yesterday. "Russia is now in WW3!"
That there scares the hell out of me.

It shows that he has no problem viewing the help that the West is giving Ukraine will be targeted.
He has already pointed the finger at the UK USA and Australia.

Trust me when I say that Israeli ears and eyes are very attentive since the Russian ship with/without Nukes was sunk.
Israel has a very large ax to grind with Russia and will do everything to protect its country and people and if that means a preemptive strike, so be it!
 
Paco Dennis said:
I am interested in getting as close to what is really happening there.
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In another thread someone posted the size of the Ukraine, it resources & access to shipping. Considering that Putin wants control over the resources & access to shipping . Don't you wonder why?

Paco Dennis said:
Please start changing your view so that the aggression stops. It is a big mistake to keep pushing the war.
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I don't think the people of Ukraine are pushing the war I think they are defending their country. Not unrealistic to ask for help in the way of defensive weapons. And not unrealistic for countries to help to eliminate the threat that Putin poses.

As for media. Now that coverage is instantaneous, seeing civilians murdered, stories of women raped almost in real time isn't like previous wars. As for nuclear IMO even China would step in to stop world destruction.
 
Putin cannot win in Ukraine. He doesn't have the manpower or equipment to invade anywhere else. As Ben said, he needs to be stopped now. Hopefully with the threat of nuclear war some of his own will take him out. I doubt if the rest of those in power there want die for his ego. I'm just as fearful of nuclear conflict as the next sane person, but evil needs to be confronted head on. We need to put pressure on the Arabs and others to replace Russian oil and gas. This would stop the last major funding source for his war, and force the hand of those that might replace him, which just might be the opposition that he has been imprisoning. This could mean a much safer world for us all. Look what happened when they tried to placate Hitler, by letting him have his way.



SeniorBen said:
If we allow Putin to take Ukraine, Poland is probably next, and then maybe the Baltic states. He needs to be stopped in his tracks. Right now, he's weak and inept. If we wait for him to regain his strength and rebuild his military, at that point it may be too late.

He needs to be removed from power by whatever means possible before he uses nuclear weapons. That much is clear. I'm hoping that someone is working on that behind the scenes. Israel, perhaps?
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The following is courtesy of my spouse, a lifelong amateur military historian whose special interest is in Asian and Indo-European history, starting from the beginning of the Roman Empire. Feel free to agree or disagree, as you choose.

At this point, since Putin's expectation is dashed that the Ukrainians would roll over and accept the installation of a Russian-approved puppet government, his objective is simple: He needs control of Eastern Ukraine. It's where, as Knight points out, their natural resources are. He also needs that corridor thru Ukraine to the sea, because otherwise Russia is a land-locked nation.

History shows us that NOT A SINGLE nation can be considered a "major power" without access to the sea. Period. Sea power, even now, is absolutely necessary.

Why do you think Russia has not attacked any ships carrying heavy weapons to Ukraine? It's because the US Navy is the force that keeps the Atlantic and Pacific oceans open for freighters.

The break-up of the USSR was a disaster for Russia because they lost all the geographic RE that protected them against invaders. That's why Putin has waged a low-level economic war over the years to try to gain de facto dominance over the "-stans", as my spouse likes to call the various countries that formed the SSRs.

Putin is a bully. So is Xi/China. You will not get anywhere by appeasing them. Both Russia and China are actually in very vulnerable economic positions. As countless dictators have shown, the only way to stay in power is to find a convenient "whipping boy" to rally a nationalistic fervor.

For Russia it is the Nazis - hence Putin claiming his forces are there to "put down rising Nazism" in Ukraine (hint: there isn't any). For China it's the existence of Taiwan.
 
Knight said:
In another thread someone posted the size of the Ukraine, it resources & access to shipping. Considering that Putin wants control over the resources & access to shipping . Don't you wonder why?


I don't think the people of Ukraine are pushing the war I think they are defending their country. Not unrealistic to ask for help in the way of defensive weapons. And not unrealistic for countries to help to eliminate the threat that Putin poses.

As for media. Now that coverage is instantaneous, seeing civilians murdered, stories of women raped almost in real time isn't like previous wars. As for nuclear IMO even China would step in to stop world destruction.
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As an unabashed Australian I have a good deal of empathy for the underdog in any contest of might. Ukraine is the proverbial underdog that has the heart of a lion. They have asked for our help to defend themselves and, while I abhor war in general, I am happy for my government to assist them in this and other practical ways.

Putin has miscalculated and has done a lot of damage to his own country for the future. Russia is becoming isolated and excluded and deservedly so. However, they will only desist if NATO and non NATO countries like Australia and New Zealand join together to support Ukraine.

I'm not exactly a fan of Boris Johnson but his visit to Kyiv to meet with Zelenskyy was a very bold gesture of support that must have encouraged the Ukrainians. It certainly made very plain that Putin is risking much by invading Ukraine, even though they did not seek membership.
 
Lethe200 said:
History shows us that NOT A SINGLE nation can be considered a "major power" without access to the sea. Period. Sea power, even now, is absolutely necessary.
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But didn't they already do a similar war in Georgia and get access to the sea that way?
 
HoneyNut said:
But didn't they already do a similar war in Georgia and get access to the sea that way?
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Russia's Northern Fleet is stationed in Murmansk on the Barent's Sea, which serves as a major shipping region, when St. Petersburg is iced over. Their Baltic Fleet is located at Kaliningrad Oblast, which is surrounded by the Baltic Sea, Lithuania and Poland, which is separated from Belarus by the Suwalki Gap.

The annexation of Crimea handed Sevastopol (Black Sea) over to the Russians, Which already had a Black Sea Port at Novorossiysk. I won't even mention the ports in the Pacific region.
 

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