The Roman Catholic Church. A respectful, civil, sharing of thoughts.

Catballou said:
This is one my favourite bits of his! Hilarious!
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I'm suprised no Satan worshipers that might be here haven't yet called me out for making fun of him. So before that happens, on balace I think its only fair to post a counter to it.

I'm 'reliably' informed by people I know in the church that God has a sence of humour. Something often lacking in forums where religion is being discused.

 

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Magna-Carta said:
I'm suprised no Satan worshipers that might be here haven't yet called me out for making fun of him. So before that happens, on balace I think its only fair to post a counter to it.

I'm 'reliably' informed by people I know in the church that God has a sence of humour. Something often lacking in forums where religion is being discuused.

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He MUST have! He created us, didn't he?
 
How is it that God has time to help Riley Patterson kick a 55 yard field goal but doesn't help people overcome fatal diseases? God seems to have some pretty sick priorities.
 
jujube said:
He MUST have! He created us, didn't he?
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Thank you jujube. :) This is the reaction from others I was trying to set up.

I knew someone would support what I was atempting to do. Perhaps now this thread might be devoid of vailed personal insults & other forms of personal riducule.
 
Agree with @aligatobob well crafted post.
Have been attending RC masses for over 2 decades and will continue to even though don't agree with various doctrines and policy nor negative issues in its history. I interpret Christianity from reading scripture and scholarly work, not dogmas. Primary reason is for the sake of eternal life I seek, because Jesus directly stated in gospels asked us to within a community of followers whatever that is. Read John and Paul. That eternal life depends on the ceremony of eating a host, drinking wine representing his sacrifice for us. If that is part of what it takes, then tis a small demand he could predict many would ignore for excuses thus acting like a filter. Majority of church goers are moral ethical well meaning folk I won't abandon due to the noise.
 
I grew up RC and went to parochial school for 8 years. There was a lot of instruction back then that we were somehow superior to others and worse, that other denominations were going to hell. It's such a negative to pump this stuff into little kids heads. It doesn't make the world a better place which should be the point of religion.
 
Magna-Carta said:
Even as a child I struggled with the concept of Jesus dying on the cross for my sins. A crucifixion has got to be one of the most barbaric, painful & exhausting ways to die. The concept of someone taking responsibility by dying in this way for my sins doesn’t sit well with me. Even as a child it didn’t sit well with me.

I wouldn’t want someone to pay a fine on my behalf, nor would I want someone to be punished in anyway on my behalf so that I could then be ‘saved’ & move on with my life. I can’t think therefore why I would want to place my sins on someone, using that person as a ‘scapegoat’?

This seems to me to be unjust -- where’s would my self-accountability be? I can’t help thinking in what way was Jesus’s barbaric death on the cross necessary. Forgiveness of other peoples sins is an internal thing; I don’t see how it requires someone’s torture & death. Where’s the morality in that.

Is the Roman Catholic Church telling me that I’ve got to accept this? As a child, many Catholics, & Christians in general for that matter, said yes.
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Both the Old and New Testament point out the forgiveness of sin through sacrifice. Leviticus 17:11 and Hebrews 9:22, as well as many other scriptures, point that out. According to the scriptures, all have sinned. So we all need a common sacrifice, which is Jesus Christ, the Son of God that willingly went to the Cross for our sins. And that details from that death were foretold in the book of Isaiah over 700 years before the crucifixion. A more in-depth answer as to why Jesus had to die on the cross is found at https://carm.org/doctrine-and-theology/why-did-jesus-have-to-die-for-our-sins/
 
Michael Z said:
Both the Old and New Testament point out the forgiveness of sin through sacrifice. Leviticus 17:11 and Hebrews 9:22, as well as many other scriptures, point that out. According to the scriptures, all have sinned. So we all need a common sacrifice, which is Jesus Christ, the Son of God that willingly went to the Cross for our sins. And that details from that death were foretold in the book of Isaiah over 700 years before the crucifixion. A more in-depth answer as to why Jesus had to die on the cross is found at https://carm.org/doctrine-and-theology/why-did-jesus-have-to-die-for-our-sins/
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Thank you for the link you posted, which I have now read. I would say that there are easily over 1200 words there. The author, I believe, is Matt Slick. To be honest, Matt Slick isn’t here or part of this forum, you are. I’m therefore more interested in what you think, through your own words, not through the words of someone else.

You mention the Old & New Testament, & that it points out the forgiveness of sin through sacrifice. But is that all it’s doing, pointing it out, or is it promoting it as an acceptable act. If its promoting it as an acceptable act then is it something that is seen as being acceptable only of say 2000 years ago, as opposed to now. If that is the case, then why was it only acceptable then, and not now.

If sacrifice is necessary, then why can’t it be a ‘relatively’ painfree death, if there is ever such a thing. Why does it have to be a most cruel and disgusting punishment of crucifixion? Please don’t say because that is what it says in scripture.

You point out that according to scripture we have all sinned, and need a common sacrifice. This is all well and good, from a scripture point of view, but what does Michael Z think about this, & why.
 
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Magna-Carta said:
Thank you for the link you posted, which I have now read. I would say that there are easily over 1200 words there. The author, I believe, is Matt Slick. To be honest, Matt Slick isn’t here or part of this forum, you are. I’m therefore more interested in what you think, through your own words, not through the words of someone else.

You mention the Old & New Testament, & that it points out the forgiveness of sin through sacrifice. But is that all it’s doing, pointing it out, or is it promoting it as an acceptable act. If its promoting it as an acceptable act then is it something that is seen as being acceptable only of say 2000 years ago, as opposed to now. If that is the case, then why was it only acceptable then, and not now.

If sacrifice is necessary, then why can’t it be a ‘relatively’ painfree death, if there is ever such a thing. Why does it have to be a most cruel and disgusting punishment of crucifixion? Please don’t say because that is what it says in scripture.

You point out that according to scripture we have all sinned, and need a common sacrifice. This is all well and good, from a scripture point of view, but what does Michael Z think about this, & why.
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Taken from a website: In the ancient world, crucifixion was considered the absolute most humiliating, painful, horrible way a person could possibly be put to death. It was a severe punishment reserved only for slaves, foreigners, and the worst of criminals.

The Romans were making an example of him.
 
Magna-Carta said:
I presume you are refereeing to Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross for your sins. In what way do you feel that sacrifice saved you?
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I became a "New Creation" basically. I went from being a drunk womenizer to a sober churchgoer. I had no more desire to drink. I had no more desire to meet or pick up women in a bar. I had a new desire to read the bible and to live a better life.
 
Magna-Carta said:
You mention the Old & New Testament, & that it points out the forgiveness of sin through sacrifice. But is that all it’s doing, pointing it out, or is it promoting it as an acceptable act. If its promoting it as an acceptable act then is it something that is seen as being acceptable only of say 2000 years ago, as opposed to now. If that is the case, then why was it only acceptable then, and not now.

If sacrifice is necessary, then why can’t it be a ‘relatively’ painfree death, if there is ever such a thing. Why does it have to be a most cruel and disgusting punishment of crucifixion? Please don’t say because that is what it says in scripture.
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my scope on the matter has been affected by the interelationships of the organizations in the global, national, municipal, local, and especially the individual and very personal levels. i realize and am grateful that it has been a privilege to be able to negotiate the plethora in relative safety.

the fabric of connections incorporate the financial institutions and the organic accouterment of familial and racial boundaries shaping the abstractions of the powerplay.

for a simple example, the corporate and familial structures of the beverage bottling manufacturers. every regional plant has it's own controlling family or groups thereof, race and religion being a major factor.

as i turn to observing the behavioral principles of the microbial, it doesn't seem foreign to find similarities from which i can derive an approximation of the human example. this is compelling and sad. yet there's hope!
 
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Pepper said:
I am currently angry with the church as my grandson will be forced into it. Can't stand the thought of his first communion or confirmation or whatever it is. Big discussion with son yesterday on this topic. He told me to feel free to be honest with grandson, but I will wait until he talks about it. Like, I wouldn't tell him now there's no Santa Claus.

Since he was born, I was worried about the first time he mentions 'baby Jesus.' If/when he does I might just go ballistic.
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I went to Catholic school for eight years in grade school. Once I went to public high school I walked away from all organized religions. Back then I was in church pretty much every day of the week for one reason or another, even volunteered for altar duty, which was just cleaning up and organinzing when nobody was in church. I had no interest in what they were pushing, didn't need religion to make me treat others as I would like to be treated and be kind to people and animals.....my parents raised me well, and they weren't hard core Catholics, thanks goodness.
 
Michael Z said:
I had no more desire to drink. I had no more desire to meet or pick up women in a bar. I had a new desire to read the bible and to live a better life.
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Amen, brother

My desires also changed
Not of my own effort, that's for sure
He, working that miracle in me.....by request

David said it best;

Psalm 51:10-12: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your holy spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and sustain in me a willing spirit" (NRSV).
 
I went to Catholic school for 4 years and asked my parents to get transferred to public school. They agreed. I only wanted out of there because the place scared the hell out of me. People being swatted and yelling. It just felt creepy there. There were things in public schools equally as bad. I was glad to quit school.
 
caroln said:
Taken from a website: In the ancient world, crucifixion was considered the absolute most humiliating, painful, horrible way a person could possibly be put to death. It was a severe punishment reserved only for slaves, foreigners, and the worst of criminals.

The Romans were making an example of him.
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For political reasons.

They saw Jesus as an agitator, and he was. The 'triumphal entry into Jerusalem by the East Gate was particularly challenging to the Romans, as was riding on a donkey before the cheering crowd, a parody of the way the Roman representative of Caesar came to the city riding on a war horse. The East Gate, also known as the Golden Gate, the Gate of eternal Life, the Mercy Gate or the Beautiful Gate, was particularly symbolic for the Jews of Jerusalem.

When Jesus caused a commotion at the Temple, upending the tables of the money lenders, the Romans had had enough and needed to deal with him to keep the Jewish leaders calm. In that sense he was a sacrifice, a political one. And an example to warn other agitators to cease.

Sacrifice in the Bible changes over time.

In the OT, for the atonement of sins a goat was chosen to symbolically carry away people's sin. It was released into the desert but not killed (?)

In the story of Abraham and Isaac we are told that God commanded Abraham to take his only son to a mountain, there to build an altar and sacrifice the boy. Abraham is willing to do this but God intervenes and provides a ram to take Isaac's place. From this story we infer that human sacrifice is no longer required to please God.

Later, animal blood sacrifices took place in the temple up to and after the time of Jesus. It was a very bloody affair. It required poor people to exchange their unholy coin into temple money at usurious rates, the reason for the overturning of the tables and the scourging of the money changers. The holy temple coin was then used to buy doves for sacrifice for the remission of sins.

The death of Jesus on the cross has been interpreted by his followers as a sign that God requires no more blood sacrifices, animal or human, because Jesus has paid the debt of sin for all time.

The above is my understanding and is written in my own words. I am no theologian and I realise that there are other interpretations to be had.

IMO Jesus was not "gentle Jesus, meek and mild". He knew what he was doing, he knew the danger that he was in but he was committed from the time he turned south towards Jerusalem. His arrest, trial and execution were the inevitable result.
 
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Gary O' said:
Amen, brother

My desires also changed
Not of my own effort, that's for sure
He, working that miracle in me.....by request

David said it best;

Psalm 51:10-12: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your holy spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and sustain in me a willing spirit" (NRSV).
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Me too, Gary O.
 
I'm wondering if the movie "The Exorcist" did anything to increase patronage of the church.

Loved the movie and theme song. (Note, the original song is 42 minutes long)

 
multimodAL said:
my scope on the matter has been affected by the interelationships of the organizations in the global, national, municipal, local, and especially the individual and very personal levels. i realize and am grateful that it has been a privilege to be able to negotiate the plethora in relative safety.

the fabric of connections incorporate the financial institutions and the organic accouterment of familial and racial boundaries shaping the abstractions of the powerplay.

for a simple example, the corporate and familial structures of the beverage bottling manufacturers. every regional plant has it's own controlling family or groups thereof, race and religion being a major factor.

as i turn to observing the behavioral principles of the microbial, it doesn't seem foreign to find similarities from which i can derive an approximation of the human example. this is compelling and sad. yet there's hope!
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I have no idea how this comment relates to the OP.
 

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