Why do people believe in sin and forgiveness?

Mr. Ed

Mr. Ed

Be what you is not what you what you ain’t
Location
Central NY
Growing up I made a mess of my life just living the best I could.

Church and my dad were a big part of my life, I was angered by being forced to attend everything related to the church.

I had doubts back then about the effectiveness of the church with dad at the helm preparing for the next storm between heaven and hell, sinners and saints.

The conflict of good and evil have been at odds against each other since according to the bible,
Adam and Eve disobeyed god in the garden of evil.

This is the story I grew up with, but overtime I questioned the validity of the bible and what Christianity claims as true. Believer's faith cannot be validated by conventional methods such sight, sound or touch. Without imagination faith based belief has no tangible merit to sustain these things as true or physically real.

I feel betrayed by parents playing out their lives and beliefs in fear of god and the misery of sin they desperately tried to avoid. Christianity made me miserable. My parents were miserable and going to church reinforced the miserable life we were to enjoy.
 

Nathan said:
Forgiveness is not only a feature of every religion but is just a good practice, for one's emotional and mental health. Sins committed against one another is a common occurrence, whereby forgiveness is a means to resolve it.
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Maybe, but what if you're the sort who does NOT like asking for forgiveness all the time? Maybe you don't feel everything is your fault. What if asking for forgiveness when you don't want to is unhealthy for you mentally? It could be. Couldn't it be a guilt complex? IDK.

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chic said:
Maybe, but what if you're the sort who does NOT like asking for forgiveness all the time? Maybe you don't feel everything is your fault. What if asking for forgiveness when you don't want to is unhealthy for you mentally? It could be. Couldn't it be a guilt complex? IDK.
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Why would someone be asking for forgiveness when they don't want to? That would be weird and unhealthy.

Forgiveness is something that a person who has been wronged "gives" when they are ready to let go of the pain caused. It doesn't matter if the person who wronged them is sorry, the forgiveness is for the injured party to heal.

Here's what I think about the business of forgiveness: Some people expect an apology but then refuse to grant that person "forgiveness". Sorry, but I don't wanna play that game.
 
Nathan said:
Why would someone be asking for forgiveness when they don't want to? That would be weird and unhealthy.

Forgiveness is something that a person who has been wronged "gives" when they are ready to let go of the pain caused. It doesn't matter if the person who wronged them is sorry, the forgiveness is for the injured party to heal.

Here's what I think about the business of forgiveness: Some people expect an apology but then refuse to grant that person "forgiveness". Sorry, but I don't wanna play that game.
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Yes it would be but the church does pile guilt upon people. Maybe that's what what the OP meant.
 
Mr. Ed said:
The conflict of good and evil have been at odds against each other since according to the bible,
Adam and Eve disobeyed god in the garden of evil....Without imagination faith based belief has no tangible merit to sustain these things as true or physically real.

I feel betrayed by parents playing out their lives and beliefs in fear of god and the misery of sin they desperately tried to avoid. Christianity made me miserable. My parents were miserable and going to church reinforced the miserable life we were to enjoy.
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Good & Evil is something NO one denies exists whether they are Bible believers or not. It doesnt take imagination nor faith to see the Yin and Yang of it all. Just look around. Sin is just choosing evil over good. I believe the inner conflict you're struggling with is "natural consequences" when evil is chosen...yes that can make one miserable whether you're a person of faith or not.

Another conflict that is making you miserable and fearful are the consequences in Afterlife. You can't blame your parents for that. Just don't believe in it and go on your merry way...your choice. If Christianity makes you so miserable then don't choose it. God has given you that choice to choose Him or go it alone. But stop blaming your parents, they raised you the way they believed was best for you. Parents aren't perfect. You're a grown man now and can make your own decisions.

Personally, when I try to "go it alone" without God as my beacon of light for direction, I always screw it all up. Just sayin'.

I only feel Joy in my Christian belief. It's because I don't worry about being punished for sin because I believe that God loves me and will forgive me when I've sinned because I don't make a habit of sinning the same sin over and over. I'm sorry and I change. I try to avoid temptations. I fail because I'm not perfect like God. He knows that. And forgives me because he knows my heart.

Or you can choose not to choose. Just wing it.
See how that works out for you (that's not sarcasm, I'm being sincere as that never works for me)
 
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The inability to forgive only hurts the person that expects it.

In regards to sin, is there "any" doubt that evil exists?

I ask you instead to rejoice in love and pay back such actions 7 times.
 
Mr. Ed said:
Christianity made me miserable. My parents were miserable and going to church reinforced the miserable life we were to enjoy.
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Well @Mr. Ed
That's not Christianity

Best to find a way to clear the slate
Not, in any way, good to carry that load for so long

Best to find a way to forgive them and their atrocities and move on

If it's not in yer heart to forgive, then pray for it to be there
 
I believe people need a yardstick to compare themselves with others. Therefore most embrace some concept of good and evil. It allows people to be better than someone else simply by a judgement call…rather than by action.
 
Lara said:
Good & Evil is something NO one denies exists whether they are Bible believers or not. It doesnt take imagination nor faith to see the Yin and Yang of it all. Sin is just choosing evil over good. I believe the inner conflict you're struggling with is "natural consequences" when evil is chosen...yes that can make one miserable whether you're a person of faith or not.

Another conflict that is making you miserable and fearful are the consequences in Afterlife. You can't blame your parents for that. Just don't believe in it and go on your merry way...your choice. If Christianity makes you so miserable then don't choose it. God has given you that choice to choose Him or go it alone. But stop blaming your parents. You're a grown man now and can make your own decisions.

But now try to understand my side of it. I only feel Joy in my Christian belief. It's because I don't worry about being punished for sin because I believe (and thus know in my heart and soul) that God loves me and will forgive me when I've sinned because I don't make a habit of sinning the same sin over and over. I'm sorry and I change. I try to avoid temptations. I fail because I'm not perfect like God. He knows that. And forgives me because he knows my heart.

Or you can choose not to choose. Just wing it.
See how that works out for you (that's not sarcasm, I'm being sincere)
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My understanding of Yin and Yang is that all things have a mixture of both aspects of "dark" and "light". Day and night for example. Fortunate/unfortunate. Coming/going. life /death. Nothing is completely black or white. I don't believe in evil. It is a dualist way of viewing things. Life is complex, and with true examination, that complexity comes from even more complex aspects, and on and on.

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Reading this topic my mind turned to an old song by Nat king Cole - Nature Boy

There was a boy
A very strange, enchanted boy
They say he wandered very far
Very far, over land and sea
A little shy and sad of eye
But very wise was he

And then one day
A magic day he passed my way
And while we spoke of many things
Fools and kings
This he said to me:
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to love and be loved in return"

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to love and be loved in return."

Those two lines at the end are very wise.
I suggest that if we substitute forgive and forgiven
for love and loved, the lesson will be just as wise.

To forgive is an act of love, whether it is us forgiving someone else, or allowing ourselves to be forgiven for something that we have done.

The rite of confession, which involves introspection, prompts us to make changes or make amends. It is one of the 12 steps of the AA program and it is a tough one. Confession is not so difficult in an anonymous or confidential situation, but still we find it very hard to own up to some transgressions. Until we face up to what we have done, or not done, we can carry emotional scars for decades.

@MrEd spoke of parents who were Christians but made him feel miserable in church. There is something wrong with this picture. That is not the way it is supposed to be. Confession and forgiveness, as I understand it, are liberating and life affirming. They heal rifts and strengthen relationships. They are not confined to Christianity or any other creed.
 
Paco Dennis said:
I don't believe in evil. It is a dualist way of viewing things. Life is complex, and with true examination, that complexity comes from even more complex aspects, and on and on.
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How can you Not believe in Evil? Or don't you believe in Good either? Or do you believe everything is Good? Or you can't decide because life is too complex? I do agree that life is complex, but why rule out good and evil from that complexity?
 
Lara said:
Good & Evil is something NO one denies exists whether they are Bible believers or not. It doesnt take imagination nor faith to see the Yin and Yang of it all. Sin is just choosing evil over good. I believe the inner conflict you're struggling with is "natural consequences" when evil is chosen...yes that can make one miserable whether you're a person of faith or not.

Another conflict that is making you miserable and fearful are the consequences in Afterlife. You can't blame your parents for that. Just don't believe in it and go on your merry way...your choice. If Christianity makes you so miserable then don't choose it. God has given you that choice to choose Him or go it alone. But stop blaming your parents. You're a grown man now and can make your own decisions.

But now try to understand my side of it. I only feel Joy in my Christian belief. It's because I don't worry about being punished for sin because I believe (and thus know in my heart and soul) that God loves me and will forgive me when I've sinned because I don't make a habit of sinning the same sin over and over. I'm sorry and I change. I try to avoid temptations. I fail because I'm not perfect like God. He knows that. And forgives me because he knows my heart.

Or you can choose not to choose. Just wing it.
See how that works out for you (that's not sarcasm, I'm being sincere)
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I agree with this.

Also people don't always ask for forgiveness. Often they are just forgiven without their knowledge. With as many questions as you seem to have Mr Ed...is it possible you're still having doubts about your faith or lack there of?
 
I've really given up trying to help you on this. You just can't get this god shit out of your head. You just can't forgive your parents and move on. I'm sorry for your torment, but stopping this obsession is up to you and you alone.

My parents made many mistakes but they did their best. Perhaps what you got was their best, the best they could do. You'll never find peace Ed, you refuse to forgive.
 
Lara said:
How can you Not believe in Evil? Or don't you believe in Good either? Or do you believe everything is Good? Or you can't decide because life is too complex? I do agree that life is complex, but why rule out good and evil from that complexity?
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Chat GPT-4 found this. I think it IS the position of existentialism. I agree with these theories. But, my understanding is that man has created god/s, not the other way around. If there is a God, we have thousands of religions that tell completely different stories and believe in their own particular morality....all from God. We humans are creating , with our imagination, the 10,000 things. :)

Good and evil are not supported in existentialism because existentialism rejects the idea of universal moral principles or values that apply to all human beings. Existentialism holds that each individual is free to create their own meaning and values in life, and that they are responsible for their choices and actions. Therefore, good and evil are relative to each person’s situation and perspective, and they cannot be objectively defined or measured123. Existentialism also challenges the notion of a divine or external authority that can dictate what is good or evil for humans, such as God or society12. Existentialists believe that humans are alone in the world, and that they must face the consequences of their freedom and the absurdity of existence4.

Our beliefs are conditioned by our personalities, our environment, and every moment of our experience. It is by this conditioning that thoughts and beliefs arise. The complexity can not be explained with simple constructs because conditioned existence means that everything that arises - every event, phenomenon, thought, word, action etc. - is conditional upon an infinitely complex web of other things, each of which are themselves conditional upon infinitely complex webs of other things, and so on and so forth.

If this is true then our existence will remain a mystery that cannot be explained. For many people they choose be totally involved in life's experience rather than give explanations . You might want to read or google 'the Power of Myth", Joseph Campbell
 
I've always had a problem with this forgiveness stuff. If somebody screws me over, no way am I going to say, "Forget about it". If they "done me wrong", they owe me till that debt is paid back. That doesn't mean I can be vengeful, or unethical. It means the debt is still on the books.
 
Mr. Ed said:

Why do people believe in sin and forgiveness?​

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They are concepts taught in Christianity that also observed intuitively in society, although without the labels. While each concept is defined in dictionaries, actually IDENTIFYING them is an arbitrary process that leads to much disagreement, especially so in the case of sin.
 
Paco Dennis said:
Chat GPT-4 found this. I think it IS the position of existentialism. I agree with these theories. But, my understanding is that man has created god/s, not the other way around. If there is a God, we have thousands of religions that tell completely different stories and believe in their own particular morality....all from God. We humans are creating , with our imagination, the 10,000 things. :)

Good and evil are not supported in existentialism because existentialism rejects the idea of universal moral principles or values that apply to all human beings. Existentialism holds that each individual is free to create their own meaning and values in life, and that they are responsible for their choices and actions. Therefore, good and evil are relative to each person’s situation and perspective, and they cannot be objectively defined or measured123. Existentialism also challenges the notion of a divine or external authority that can dictate what is good or evil for humans, such as God or society12. Existentialists believe that humans are alone in the world, and that they must face the consequences of their freedom and the absurdity of existence4.

Our beliefs are conditioned by our personalities, our environment, and every moment of our experience. It is by this conditioning that thoughts and beliefs arise. The complexity can not be explained with simple constructs because conditioned existence means that everything that arises - every event, phenomenon, thought, word, action etc. - is conditional upon an infinitely complex web of other things, each of which are themselves conditional upon infinitely complex webs of other things, and so on and so forth.

If this is true then our existence will remain a mystery that cannot be explained. For many people they choose be totally involved in life's experience rather than give explanations . You might want to read or google 'the Power of Myth", Joseph Campbell
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You may be surprised to know that God agrees with the Existentialist's claim you posted that "each individual is free to choose their own meaning and values in life, and that they are responsible for their choices and actions". God was the first to come up with that by creating us all with the ability to make our own choices and natural consequences.

This may also surprise you. God wants us to choose His way but for those who don't they are free to be totally responsible for their choices and actions...so therefore God agrees that "moral principles won't apply to those who reject Him" because obviously those people may choose a different set of moral principles with natural consequences. Unfortunately, they won't have God's support and guidance in life but He acknowledges that that's their choice.

I agree that SOME men have created gods and we have many religions. I've thoughtfully chosen ONE God. I don't dismiss other religions...that's solely God's job. He's the Judge. But God's desire is for man to choose to follow the very FIRST of the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt have NO other gods before me." I choose that. Again, we all have been created with the ability to choose though.

Good and Evil can be seen with our own eyes all over the world morning noon and night!
So to dismiss Good and Evil as non-existent makes no sense at all, no matter how anyone tries to reason that.

So, Existentialism is "much ado about nothing". I'll bet you never heard that before. It is bold of me but I'm totally serious. I did enjoy your post though and I totally get life's complexity. One of those things we will never understand until after we pass on.
 
Lara said:
You may be surprised to know that God agrees with the Existentialist's claim you posted that "each individual is free to choose their own meaning and values in life, and that they are responsible for their choices and actions". God was the first to come up with that by creating us all with the ability to make our own choices and natural consequences.

This may also surprise you. God wants us to choose His way but for those who don't they are free to be totally responsible for their choices and actions...so therefore God agrees that "moral principles won't apply to those who reject Him" because obviously those people may choose a different set of moral principles with natural consequences. Unfortunately, they won't have God's support and guidance in life but He acknowledges that that's their choice.

I agree that SOME men have created gods and we have many religions. I've thoughtfully chosen ONE God. I don't dismiss other religions...that's solely God's job. He's the Judge. But God's desire is for man to choose to follow the very FIRST of the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt have NO other gods before me." I choose that. Again, we all have been created with the ability to choose though.

Good and Evil can be seen with our own eyes all over the world morning noon and night!
So to dismiss Good and Evil as non-existent makes no sense at all, no matter how anyone tries to reason that.

So, Existentialism is "much ado about nothing". I'll bet you never heard that before. It is bold of me but I'm totally serious. I did enjoy your post though and I totally get life's complexity. One of those things we will never understand until after we pass on.
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You may be surprised to know that I was a born again Christian from 1972 to 1980. I was intoxicated by Jesus and the Holy Spirit and prayed all the time. I went to malls and sang Christian songs, and was a leader of worship services often. I know everything you believe, almost exactly as you have described. I got very frustrated with the God that people wound up on Sundays. So many Christians say they believe in Christ, but do not behave like Jesus instructed them. Jesus had no possessions, but most Christians worry and are always concerned /worried about their material possessions. I also thought that leaders in the churches were very hypocritical, and yet they taught their flock on how to follow Christ.

I also found out about how the Bible came to be. Most of it was written long after Christ lived...if he even did...and is considered by most Biblical scholars to be geared towards Rome's edict by Constantine that allowed Christians to worship the way they wanted. That is when most of the Bible was written. It is all apologetic to support the religion and most of the stories are not true. It is a work of fiction, not the "WORD OF GOD".
 

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