The right to die..

Capt Lightning

Well-known Member
The Scottish parliament is to consider allowing assisted dying for terminally ill people. This would apply to people who are over 16 and have lived in Scotland for at least 1 year. Those considering ending their own lives must be confirmed as terminally ill through illness or condition. My first thought was what about those with dementia or other mental disorders, but the proposal states that people must clearly understand what they are doing. Those wanting to end their lives could obtain a lethal dose of drugs through their GP, although doctors who do not agree could refuse.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
 

The Scottish parliament is to consider allowing assisted dying for terminally ill people. This would apply to people who are over 16 and have lived in Scotland for at least 1 year. Those considering ending their own lives must be confirmed as terminally ill through illness or condition. My first thought was what about those with dementia or other mental disorders, but the proposal states that people must clearly understand what they are doing. Those wanting to end their lives could obtain a lethal dose of drugs through their GP, although doctors who do not agree could refuse.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
there's quite a few places in the USA who allow assisted dying.. and it should be a right IMO. Currently we in the UK have to have less than 6 months to live.. before taking a trip to Switzerland to the dignitas clinic and paying £10k for the privilege of being killed. .

as an aside... I wonder why so much , when a Vet can put an animal down in a minute without all the expense...

The problem is one of the stipulations is that the person who is ill has to be able to fly to Switzerland without help... altho' they can be accompanied.. and most people who are so desperately ill cannot make the trip...

I hope Scotland passes the rule to allow it, then hopefully The British govt will wake up, and pass the law in the rest of the UK as well..
 

there's quite a few places in the USA who allow assisted dying.. and it should be a right IMO. Currently we in the UK have to have less than 6 months to live.. before taking a trip to Switzerland to the dignitas clinic and paying £10k for the privilege of being killed. .

as an aside... I wonder why so much , when a Vet can put an animal down in a minute without all the expense...

The problem is one of the stipulations is that the person who is ill has to be able to fly to Switzerland without help... altho' they can be accompanied.. and most people who are so desperately ill cannot make the trip...

I hope Scotland passes the rule to allow it, then hopefully The British govt will wake up, and pass the law in the rest of the UK as well..
It's a side topic but death penalties where the lethal injection did not "work" is a bizarre thing. A sick German Shepherd of mine was injected by a vet, and the heart stopped within a matter of seconds. I just asked Bing about this and Bing said there was a public relations issue with sodium pentobarbital, because it was used on dogs. Give me a break. So federal and some states plan to start using it again.
 
My only question is, how do we protect against someone dying against their true wishes? Solve that, and there's no real problem.

So, from a medical standpoint, what is the criteria we're going to use? What are the checks and balances. For example, how is the difference between someone with Cancer, and someone who is morbidly depressed, determined? Is the Cancer victim truly making the decision on their own, or are they being influenced by others? Are they deciding to end their suffering, or are they simply grappling with the complexity of their demise? What counseling and advice have they had? etc.

We should also remember the impact this will have on anyone involved. There's the individual, the family, and the professionals who would have to oversee whatever procedures are in place. The psychological effects are likely to be profound. Then of course, how life's remains are handled - what would Life Insurance companies make of it?

Very complex one this. You can go in Youtube and find countless channels made by people fighting Stage 4 Cancer. None of them seem to want to die, which of course would still be their right. They fight. That's human instinct. In low moments though, you can see how hard it is.
 
My only question is, how do we protect against someone dying against their true wishes? Solve that, and there's no real problem.

So, from a medical standpoint, what is the criteria we're going to use? What are the checks and balances. For example, how is the difference between someone with Cancer, and someone who is morbidly depressed, determined? Is the Cancer victim truly making the decision on their own, or are they being influenced by others? Are they deciding to end their suffering, or are they simply grappling with the complexity of their demise? What counseling and advice have they had? etc.

We should also remember the impact this will have on anyone involved. There's the individual, the family, and the professionals who would have to oversee whatever procedures are in place. The psychological effects are likely to be profound. Then of course, how life's remains are handled - what would Life Insurance companies make of it?

Very complex one this. You can go in Youtube and find countless channels made by people fighting Stage 4 Cancer. None of them seem to want to die, which of course would still be their right. They fight. That's human instinct. In low moments though, you can see how hard it is.
There’s a long process before anyone is given a lethal weapon injection. Forms are filled out, counselling is given etc.

Since it IS legal, insurance companies are treating it as such. Claims ARE going through.

In Canada mental health is not covered yet but when it is, counselling is given for a certain amount of time. If counselling and drugs don’t solve the mental state, then the person is given the choice of dying with dignity.

Peoples remains go through the same way they would under natural causes whether that’s a formal burial or cremation.

It has an impact on family, just like a natural death does. Family can become involved if they want to. All of their questions can be answered.

When our beloved pets are suffering too much, we at least have the option of putting them out of their misery. Why can’t humans have the same option?
 
My only question is, how do we protect against someone dying against their true wishes? Solve that, and there's no real problem.

So, from a medical standpoint, what is the criteria we're going to use? What are the checks and balances. For example, how is the difference between someone with Cancer, and someone who is morbidly depressed, determined? Is the Cancer victim truly making the decision on their own, or are they being influenced by others? Are they deciding to end their suffering, or are they simply grappling with the complexity of their demise? What counseling and advice have they had? etc.

We should also remember the impact this will have on anyone involved. There's the individual, the family, and the professionals who would have to oversee whatever procedures are in place. The psychological effects are likely to be profound. Then of course, how life's remains are handled - what would Life Insurance companies make of it?

Very complex one this. You can go in Youtube and find countless channels made by people fighting Stage 4 Cancer. None of them seem to want to die, which of course would still be their right. They fight. That's human instinct. In low moments though, you can see how hard it is.
There are also some vids on YouTube of people who take you through the process of their assisted suicide. In one I watched, the patient was interviewed by the physician and a mental health counselor, and then filled out a 5-page questionnaire. Three or four close family members were interviewed and signed a document saying they accept the patient's decision. Then the physician Rx'ed the AS medications. On The Day of the event an RN came to the patient's house to be on hand if the patient changed their mind at the last minute, or to monitor the patient's vitals and officially pronounce the time of death if they didn't.

The checks and balances were there.
 
There’s a long process before anyone is given a lethal weapon injection. Forms are filled out, counselling is given etc.

Since it IS legal, insurance companies are treating it as such. Claims ARE going through.

In Canada mental health is not covered yet but when it is, counselling is given for a certain amount of time. If counselling and drugs don’t solve the mental state, then the person is given the choice of dying with dignity.

Peoples remains go through the same way they would under natural causes whether that’s a formal burial or cremation.

It has an impact on family, just like a natural death does. Family can become involved if they want to. All of their questions can be answered.

When our beloved pets are suffering too much, we at least have the option of putting them out of their misery. Why can’t humans have the same option?

And that all sounds great, until it doesn't. It seems fanciful to me to lay out such a response, and to then assume that bad things never happen.

I think of two things - the death penalty for crime, and Freddie Mercury. It'll make sense in a moment. :D

The Death Penalty in the US is full of checks and balances, of forms, appeals, and so on. Yet we all know, it sometimes gets things wrong. For all the safety procedures in place, for all the signatures and considerations, innocent people have been put to death, and more than once.

Which illustrates two things: 1) For all the measures we put in place, for all the humanity and justice we inject, things can still go wrong. 2) Freddie Mercury, as you likely know, was the lead singer of Queen, a rock band. He died from complications of AIDS in 1991. At the time, there were treatments such as AZT, but of course, it was a fatal disease, he would have had little to no hope. Yet just 5 years later, a cure of sorts was found. A least, it stopped people dying from the disease for the most part. So Freddie, sadly, passed because the development of the disease was too swift.

You then mention those with mental illness. I simply cannot get on board with the idea someone suffering such a disease could opt to die. I just can't. It's bad enough when it leads to suicide. But once you give people in desperate mental anguish the opportunity to simply opt to end their life, I just don't think it's right. Sorry, it's a very complex issue.

I also have to wonder how a nation such as the US (I know you're in Canada) can lay claim to being a Christian nation when/if they're allowing people to opt to kill themselves (in effect). When we're going through issues on abortion, it seems odd to me that someone - or a nation - should care so much about the beginning of life, but not mind as much at the end of it, or at least give an option to die.

All of that said, we can all come up with extreme cases that somehow justify our view one way or another. There are certainly people for whom death is the only release. If I were in a hospital bed right now, riddled with cancer and with no hope of being saved, in pain and suffering, I'm sure I'd beg for the end like a lot of others. In fact, this very morning I was reading about a guy who had radiation poisoning, and because of the way it affected his body, no painkillers worked as his body gave up. All he could do was scream.

I know for sure, I couldn't be any part of this process myself. I couldn't sign a form saying someone can die. I couldn't provide or administer the drugs to bring about death. I couldn't counsel someone who was thinking about it.

As for insurance, nothing is simply accepted. The industry is a hateful bunch. It may appear that if the death is legal it's accepted, but you can bet it's being accounted for by exclusions in policies, higher payments, or somewhere else (such as not issuing policies for people at a certain age because of a family history etc.)

This is a very complex issue. Much is based on the sanctity of life, and the right of the individual to do as they please. However, there has to be limits.
 
There are also some vids on YouTube of people who take you through the process of their assisted suicide. In one I watched, the patient was interviewed by the physician and a mental health counselor, and then filled out a 5-page questionnaire. Three or four close family members were interviewed and signed a document saying they accept the patient's decision. Then the physician Rx'ed the AS medications. On The Day of the event an RN came to the patient's house to be on hand if the patient changed their mind at the last minute, or to monitor the patient's vitals and officially pronounce the time of death if they didn't.

The checks and balances were there.

Yes, there is an amazing channel on Youtube that deals with working, and understanding, hospice care. I'll post a video below that is somewhat more light-hearted (!), but she's amazing, honest, and caring:

 
There’s a long process before anyone is given a lethal weapon injection. Forms are filled out, counselling is given etc.

Since it IS legal, insurance companies are treating it as such. Claims ARE going through.

In Canada mental health is not covered yet but when it is, counselling is given for a certain amount of time. If counselling and drugs don’t solve the mental state, then the person is given the choice of dying with dignity.

Peoples remains go through the same way they would under natural causes whether that’s a formal burial or cremation.

It has an impact on family, just like a natural death does. Family can become involved if they want to. All of their questions can be answered.

When our beloved pets are suffering too much, we at least have the option of putting them out of their misery. Why can’t humans have the same option?
oops. I just posted something similar....I didn't read yours first.

The lethal dose isn't an injection...not in the video I watched. 3 or 4 capsules of different medication was delivered to the guy's house and an assisting RN was there to sign for the delivery. Apparently, the medications are fatal when taken together.
 
You then mention those with mental illness. I simply cannot get on board with the idea someone suffering such a disease could opt to die. I just can't. It's bad enough when it leads to suicide. But once you give people in desperate mental anguish the opportunity to simply opt to end their life, I just don't think it's right. Sorry, it's a very complex issue.
I think a person who wishes to die because of mental anguish, after having tried unsuccessfully to heal should be given the option for assisted suicide. So many of them try anyway, with terrible results that follow, that makes things worse. I don't feel confident enough to stop them from doing what they want.
 
I think a person who wishes to die because of mental anguish, after having tried unsuccessfully to heal should be given the option for assisted suicide. So many of them try anyway, with terrible results that follow, that makes things worse. I don't feel confident enough to stop them from doing what they want.
I agree. There should be a minimum age, though. I'm thinking 40-something.
 
The Scottish parliament is to consider allowing assisted dying for terminally ill people. This would apply to people who are over 16 and have lived in Scotland for at least 1 year. Those considering ending their own lives must be confirmed as terminally ill through illness or condition. My first thought was what about those with dementia or other mental disorders, but the proposal states that people must clearly understand what they are doing. Those wanting to end their lives could obtain a lethal dose of drugs through their GP, although doctors who do not agree could refuse.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
What concerns me is that assisted dying can make it easy to end the life of someone who can't make the decision and is severely disabled. Someone for example with cerebral palsy. Who would know if such a patient wanted to die? Patients with dramatic conditions are an extreme cost on our NHS. There might come a day when that cost could be offset, it could be a case of: "There, there now, just pop this little pill into your mouth, you won't feel a thing."
 
What concerns me is that assisted dying can make it easy to end the life of someone who can't make the decision and is severely disabled. Someone for example with cerebral palsy. Who would know if such a patient wanted to die? Patients with dramatic conditions are an extreme cost on our NHS. There might come a day when that cost could be offset, it could be a case of: "There, there now, just pop this little pill into your mouth, you won't feel a thing."
See posts #9 and #10.
 
See posts #9 and #10.
Murrmurr wrote:
There are also some vids on YouTube of people who take you through the process of their assisted suicide. ly

Many severely disabled lack the ability to communicate, that in turn can have others make a decision for them. I am deeply uncomfortable about such a scenario.
 
Murrmurr wrote:
There are also some vids on YouTube of people who take you through the process of their assisted suicide. ly

Many severely disabled lack the ability to communicate, that in turn can have others make a decision for them. I am deeply uncomfortable about such a scenario.
I guess if there's no way for them to communicate their wishes, they're out of luck. But there are several different types of communication devices available for people who are not able to vocalize and write.

Example: Steve Hawkins used one.
 
I couldn't sign a form saying someone can die. I know for sure, I couldn't be any part of this process myself. I couldn't sign a form saying someone can die.
When my mother had a catastrophic stroke from which she never regained consciousness, I abided by the wishes she'd expressed many times, both before before her dementia had set in. It was also clearly stated on a DNR and other paperwork she'd signed.

Nevertheless, as the person with her legal and medical power of attorney, I had to sign documents removing all care, including IV fluids, arranging for end of life hospice care. Although a very difficult moment for me, this was about her, and following her wishes. She passed 13 days later.

It was one of the final kindness I could offer her.
 


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