Did we really have to drop atomic bombs on Japan?

Long before my time, but my dad served in the Pacific theater. I remember him getting together with his war buddies and talking about the brutality of the Japanese.. I've never felt the least bit upset over how the war was finally ended..
 

Josiah said:
You may well be right. But had we done a demonstration with the first bomb and still had to use a 2nd bomb on a city, history would be a lot kinder to HST.
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I think I heard one of the catalysts for going right into full fledged use with no demonstration was at the time those two bombs were the only ones ready.
 
I think Truman did what he thought had to be done. I'm sure it was an agonizing decision.
 

Shirley said:
I think Truman did what he thought had to be done. I'm sure it was an agonizing decision.
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I agree, I don't think he was happy about it but he felt it had to be. I agree with his decision. It's easy for people today to be critical but there is a difference between hindsight and then.
 
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

Stop pussyfooting around.

We were at war and they were the aggressors.

To quote Bomber Harris in a different context, "They have sown the wind, and now they shall reap the whirlwind".

If it stopped my uncle in Burma getting his pinkie scratched it was justified.

Total war is total war. There are no civilians. What percentage of the population of Hiroshima condemned Pearl Harbour?

Get used to it.
 
When I was about 13 or 14, I read the book "Hiroshima", not understanding all of it, but enough to learn that the bomb's effects were far greater than I previously realized.

I recall asking my mother how we could do such a thing to innocent people and other kids. My mother said that we had dropped leaflets by planes all over Japan for many days, warning that a terrible thing was going to happen if they didn't surrender immediately.

Although I accepted her explanation, I was never really comfortable with it, even then.
 
RadishRose said:
When I was about 13 or 14, I read the book "Hiroshima", not understanding all of it, but enough to learn that the bomb's effects were far greater than I previously realized.

I recall asking my mother how we could do such a thing to innocent people and other kids. My mother said that we had dropped leaflets by planes all over Japan for many days, warning that a terrible thing was going to happen if they didn't surrender immediately.

Although I accepted her explanation, I was never really comfortable with it, even then.
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I hadn't been aware of the leaflets being dropped which surprises me but which doesn't excuse my ignorance, Yes leaflets were dropped and here is the text of one.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-leaflets/
 
I watch the Tokyo news every night, and of course they covered the bomb anniversary. I grew up during the war and I remember the event quite well. The vast majority of Americans, at that time, not to mention people around the world, greeted the dropping of the bombs and Japan's surrender with an outpouring of joy and relief exceeding anything else I have ever witnessed since. No one at the time thought it was a wrong thing to do. Of course it was a great human tragedy. No doubt about that, but I confess I was really angered today to hear one Japanese man, who might have been a survivor, describe it as "an inhuman act". Well I'm sorry, but the Japanese military with deliberate forethought and intent to extend their empire, started the war. Anyone interested will find it easy to learn of the deliberate bombing of civilians, rape, torture, and four years of inhuman acts committed by the Japanese during WWII.
As far as Japan being ready to surrender; not only Japanese soldiers, but civilians as well, can be seen in documentaries committing suicide rather than surrender. There are films showing civilians drilling in the streets of Japan with sharpened sticks in preparation to defend their home land. I really am not an expert on the following. Just typing from recall. I remember seeing a documentary about Japan's surrender. As I recall, it took some kind of coup by some under officers, to force the decision on the Emperor. No. I'm sorry. I'm a died in the wool pacifist, and I love today's Japanese, but they are not who we were dealing with in WWII. It was a horrible event in human history. No doubt about that. Thousands of innocents killed. It must never happen again. No doubt about that, but let's be careful about who's pointing fingers at whom.
 
Underock1 said:
I watch the Tokyo news every night, and of course they covered the bomb anniversary. I grew up during the war and I remember the event quite well. The vast majority of Americans, at that time, not to mention people around the world, greeted the dropping of the bombs and Japan's surrender with an outpouring of joy and relief exceeding anything else I have ever witnessed since. No one at the time thought it was a wrong thing to do. Of course it was a great human tragedy. No doubt about that, but I confess I was really angered today to hear one Japanese man, who might have been a survivor, describe it as "an inhuman act". Well I'm sorry, but the Japanese military with deliberate forethought and intent to extend their empire, started the war. Anyone interested will find it easy to learn of the deliberate bombing of civilians, rape, torture, and four years of inhuman acts committed by the Japanese during WWII.
As far as Japan being ready to surrender; not only Japanese soldiers, but civilians as well, can be seen in documentaries committing suicide rather than surrender. There are films showing civilians drilling in the streets of Japan with sharpened sticks in preparation to defend their home land. I really am not an expert on the following. Just typing from recall. I remember seeing a documentary about Japan's surrender. As I recall, it took some kind of coup by some under officers, to force the decision on the Emperor. No. I'm sorry. I'm a died in the wool pacifist, and I love today's Japanese, but they are not who we were dealing with in WWII. It was a horrible event in human history. No doubt about that. Thousands of innocents killed. It must never happen again. No doubt about that, but let's be careful about who's pointing fingers at whom.
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Goodness Underock do you speak Japanese? I'm so impressed. My recollections of August 1945 are the same as yours....unexpected joy at the announcement. I was at summer camp at the time and the day after the announcement all the campers spent the day dragging branches out of the woods and that evening we had an enormous bond fire on the beach to celebrate the end of the war.
 
WhatInThe said:
Many have speculated on a demonstration but if civilians and military already saw cities like Tokyo turned into rubble with conventional bombing I don't see a demonstration mostly witnessed by military making a dent in the mentality of the time.. They didn't even surrender after the first one.
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The Japanese had been trying since January of that year to surrender. Documentation to that effect is available. So your statement would be incorrect that they didn't try to surrender after the first one. The government of that time had an agenda that required dropping those bombs so they ignored the Japanese effort. And the only thing the Japanese asked apparently is that their Emperor be allowed to stay in place as the Emperor was considered not only the countries leader but a deity as well.

I have to also say that I find it a little weird that the story of 'sharpening sticks' to repel invaders seems to be such a dreadful thing for them to have done. I suppose that no self respecting American would ever try to repel invaders either since it apparently is some kind of indictment on human character to do so. And it should also be noted that harakari (is that the right word to use? not sure)is an ancient practise and chosen to protect honour as opposed to falling into the hands of an (unsympathetic) army. It is quite likely that their government used propaganda just as every other government paints invaders as monsters. We should ask ourselves how our own governments treated and spoke of 'our Japanese' citizens of that era even when they were given no reason to believe they were enemies. What did they tell us to make it easy for the public to allow it without hesitation. I guess in that light, we should never hold it against the German people that they accepted the imprisonment of the Jews. Propaganda is a powerful tool.
 
RadishRose said:
When I was about 13 or 14, I read the book "Hiroshima", not understanding all of it, but enough to learn that the bomb's effects were far greater than I previously realized.

I recall asking my mother how we could do such a thing to innocent people and other kids. My mother said that we had dropped leaflets by planes all over Japan for many days, warning that a terrible thing was going to happen if they didn't surrender immediately.

Although I accepted her explanation, I was never really comfortable with it, even then.
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I read that book too but I think I was a bit younger. I think the horrors of what I read there helped to make me the person that I am today. Maybe it should be required reading in grade 3 and we might have better leaders who aren't so willing to inflict suffering on the civilians in pursuit of God knows what. Maybe a little emotional trauma that points to war as a horrific and to be avoided event would be good for mankind. You know, encourage some empathy development.
 
AZ Jim said:
Debby, please post proof of any such efforts made on behalf of the emperor of Japan.
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https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol9no3/html/v09i3a06p_0001.htm

January 17, 1945

'
Memoranda for the President: Japanese Feelers

APPROVED FOR RELEASE
CIA HISTORICAL REVIEW PROGRAM
22 SEPT 93​
CONFIDENTIAL​
Documents tracing some fervent but fruitless Japanese efforts to end the war in the Pacific.
MEMORANDA FOR THE PRESIDENT: JAPANESE FEELERS​
The last two volumes of the OSS Reports to the White House preserved among General Donovan's papers1 include records of several different Japanese approaches in 1945 to the Vatican and to OSS Lisbon, Bern, and Wiesbaden seeking a way to end the war. These peace feelers were generally the product of local initiative and had at most only a tacit approval from official Tokyo, where government quarreling over the question of capitulation was growing more and more desperate as the year advanced. They did not lead in any way to the eventual Japanese notes sent through standard diplomatic channels on 10 and 14 August, but they may have helped define for both sides the conditions therein drawn which made "unconditional" surrender a practical possibility.
The intelligence reports provide interesting and sometimes puzzling footnotes for Robert J. C. Butow's fastidious -- and fascinating -- reconstruction of the intricate political maneuverings that ended in Japan's Decision to Surrender.2 The documents are reproduced below.
Through the Vatican
17 January 1945​
MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:
On 10 January the Japanese Emperor attended a secret council meeting during which someone dared to speak about peace feelers.3

The Emperor was informed that certain Japanese individuals have been attempting to interest the highest authority at source4 in mediating the Pacific War. The Emperor did not express any disapproval of these efforts.
Someone at the meeting declared that such activities might be a useful preparation for a time more opportune than the present. The Council was skeptical of mediation possibilities, evidently believing that only force of arms would settle the conflict....'


Note the source.....the CIA and also note the opening remark about the efforts being fervent but fruitless! And the last phrase there 'evidently believing that ONLY force of arms would settle the conflict'. So there was an obvious desire not to explore surrender.
**********************************

This second link appears to be some sort of Journal of Military History, and the writers credentials are as follows: Gerhard Krebshas: has held positions at the German Institute of Japanese Studies in Tokyo and at the Institute for Military History in Potsdam, and has taught at Waseda University, Freiburg University and Berlin Free University, where he served as temporary chair from 2000 to 2004. His doctoral thesis, "Japans Deutschlandpolitik 1935-1941," 2 vols.(Hamburg, 2984), won the Japan price of the East Asia Society (OAG) in Tokyo.






http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/64a.pdf

'...In contrast, Fujimura and Tsuyama had no problem enteringSwitzerland. Since their new host country had neither a coast nor anavy, Fujimura's post became known as "navy air force attache."39In thebeginning of March, the two men arrived in the Swiss capital of Bern,40where they lost no time in initiating their peace efforts. ....On 23April, the Japanese formally asked Hack to act as go-between with theAmericans for the Japanese navy. ...
 
Josiah said:
Goodness Underock do you speak Japanese? I'm so impressed. My recollections of August 1945 are the same as yours....unexpected joy at the announcement. I was at summer camp at the time and the day after the announcement all the campers spent the day dragging branches out of the woods and that evening we had an enormous bond fire on the beach to celebrate the end of the war.
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:rofl1: No Josiah. I don't speak Japanese. I just watch the international news shows. European news out of Germany. Asian news out of Japan. They're in English. You get a whole different perspective on things. Its really very enlightening. The US news is utterly hopeless unless you're interested in what the "News Team" had for breakfast. I assure you, I am not much to be impressed with. Thanks for the compliment, anyway.
 
Debby said:
January 17, 1945

'
Memoranda for the President: Japanese Feelers

APPROVED FOR RELEASE
CIA HISTORICAL REVIEW PROGRAM
22 SEPT 93​
CONFIDENTIAL​
Documents tracing some fervent but fruitless Japanese efforts to end the war in the Pacific.
MEMORANDA FOR THE PRESIDENT: JAPANESE FEELERS​
The last two volumes of the OSS Reports to the White House preserved among General Donovan's papers1 include records of several different Japanese approaches in 1945 to the Vatican and to OSS Lisbon, Bern, and Wiesbaden seeking a way to end the war. These peace feelers were generally the product of local initiative and had at most only a tacit approval from official Tokyo, where government quarreling over the question of capitulation was growing more and more desperate as the year advanced. They did not lead in any way to the eventual Japanese notes sent through standard diplomatic channels on 10 and 14 August, but they may have helped define for both sides the conditions therein drawn which made "unconditional" surrender a practical possibility.
The intelligence reports provide interesting and sometimes puzzling footnotes for Robert J. C. Butow's fastidious -- and fascinating -- reconstruction of the intricate political maneuverings that ended in Japan's Decision to Surrender.2 The documents are reproduced below.
Through the Vatican
17 January 1945​
MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:
On 10 January the Japanese Emperor attended a secret council meeting during which someone dared to speak about peace feelers.3

The Emperor was informed that certain Japanese individuals have been attempting to interest the highest authority at source4 in mediating the Pacific War. The Emperor did not express any disapproval of these efforts.
Someone at the meeting declared that such activities might be a useful preparation for a time more opportune than the present. The Council was skeptical of mediation possibilities, evidently believing that only force of arms would settle the conflict.
...'





Note the source.....the CIA
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OK! Hardly an offer though official channels to surrender. No, sorry means nothing.
 
Experts are still debating whether the bombings were justified.... and still have no answer.

Hiroshima: 140,000 people dead
Nagasaki : 80,000 people dead

U.S. Army poster prepares the public for the invasion of Japan after ending war on Germany and Italy:
800px-"Jap...You're_Next^_We'll_Finish_the_Job"_-_NARA_-_513563.jpg
 
Debby said:
The Japanese had been trying since January of that year to surrender. Documentation to that effect is available. So your statement would be incorrect that they didn't try to surrender after the first one. The government of that time had an agenda that required dropping those bombs so they ignored the Japanese effort. And the only thing the Japanese asked apparently is that their Emperor be allowed to stay in place as the Emperor was considered not only the countries leader but a deity as well.

I have to also say that I find it a little weird that the story of 'sharpening sticks' to repel invaders seems to be such a dreadful thing for them to have done. I suppose that no self respecting American would ever try to repel invaders either since it apparently is some kind of indictment on human character to do so. And it should also be noted that harakari (is that the right word to use? not sure)is an ancient practice and chosen to protect honor as opposed to falling into the hands of an (unsympathetic) army. It is quite likely that their government used propaganda just as every other government paints invaders as monsters. We should ask ourselves how our own governments treated and spoke of 'our Japanese' citizens of that era even when they were given no reason to believe they were enemies. What did they tell us to make it easy for the public to allow it without hesitation. I guess in that light, we should never hold it against the German people that they accepted the imprisonment of the Jews. Propaganda is a powerful tool.
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So basically what you're saying is that of course they would defend themselves to the death with their sharpened sticks because the honorable thing to do is to die rather than surrender. Sorry. The bomb, horrible as it was, saved a lot of lives. Curiously, there were other conventional bombings in WWII that killed more people, and were far more unjustified. They don't get nearly the same attention. I fully agree with you that the interment of the Japanese Americans was tragic. A gross injustice. I can only say, that if I had lived on the West Coast immediately after Pearl Harbor, I might have felt differently. All historic events have to be judged according to the conditions and attitudes of the times, not by our current standards.
Its easy to judge, when its not our own lives that are under threat, whether that threat is real or just perceived.
Unfair as it was, I think your comparing of the interment of the Japanese to the Holocaust is just a wee bit of a reach!
 
The Rape of Nanking- A little perspective-
In December, 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into Nanking, and proceeded to murder 300,000, out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would be the single worst atrocity during WWII in either the European or Pacific Theatre. There were also numerous bombings of other Chinese cities, specifically directed at the civilian population including the targeting of hospitals.
As I have said before; I love today's Japanese. I was totally in favor of reparations for the wrongful interment of Japanese/Americans, but these Japanese weren't them.
 
SifuPhil said:
Hindsight is always an easy thing to pull off, but I've always wondered if those acts were absolutely necessary. Japan was already mortally crippled and most of their population just wanted to stop fighting.
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On what do you base this statement that Japan was mortally crippled before the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?
 
Josiah said:
I wonder if anyone considered notifying the Japanese that we had this weapon and to demonstrate that fact we were going to drop an atomic bomb fifty miles off the coast of Japan at a specific time. This might have achieved an end to the war without killing any people.
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My parents told me that the president did warn Japan about atomic weapons, but Hirohito was not impressed. I'm not sure about the accuracy of this. I wasn't born at the time.
 
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