Butterfly
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- Albuquerque, New Mexico USA
Argee, absolutely.
Did we really have to drop atomic bombs on Japan?
- Thread starter Ralphy1
- Start date
Argee, absolutely.
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
I have just been reviewing my research on the Rape of Nanking. See my post above, I now have no doubt that the Japanese deserved every bit of what they got. I had forgotten what vicious, sub humans they really were at the time. I think there ought to be an exhibit at Hiroshima about that, so that everyone understands who was ultimately responsible for the end result. I advise anyone with a weak stomach not to pull up any of the images, photoed with pride by the Japanese themselves. They will haunt you for the rest of your life.
Butterfly
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- Albuquerque, New Mexico USA
I'd like to know the answer to this one, too. I believe they had vowed to keep fighting to the last man, and would have done so, at the cost of a lot more lives. I also do not believe Japan was trying to surrender.
SifuPhil
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
- Location
- Pennsylvania, USA
The population was starving and their industry was essentially gone.
It wasn't the bombs that ended the war - it was Stalin.
That happened several days after the bombs fell.
I watched a few very well produced shows on TV last night concerning the 'A' bomb and learned a lot that I did not know, including how the atomic bomb was able to cause the destruction that it did. The History Channel and the National Geo Channel both had excellent shows. Some of the survivors gave their testimonials about what is was like the day the bomb was dropped. It gave me pause to think about how, if today there would be nuclear war and what the results would be like. I think "total annihilation" would be a good analysis.
Many Historians state that the dropping of the second 'A' bomb is what brought Japan to the table to end the war. Russia declaring war on Japan was probably the "last straw" and put the handwriting on the wall for Japan to surrender. Here is a short eight and a half minute video that depicts Hiroshima before, during and after the drop of the bomb, known as "Little Boy."
Many Historians state that the dropping of the second 'A' bomb is what brought Japan to the table to end the war. Russia declaring war on Japan was probably the "last straw" and put the handwriting on the wall for Japan to surrender. Here is a short eight and a half minute video that depicts Hiroshima before, during and after the drop of the bomb, known as "Little Boy."
In the memo for the president:
'...feelers...' & 'product of local initiative'
It was also noted that Japan did not use formal diplomatic channels until August 10, 1945
The fact that these were 'feelers' says that the Japanese were seeing what they could get or what the allies wanted which means unconditional surrender wasn't on their table yet. If they were that serious an obvious white flag would've come out along with the use of standard formal diplomatic protocol & channels. Just the fact that an unofficial third party is trying to facilitate an agreement takes away credibility.
I find it appalling that so many on this thread have no remorse at all about the killing of almost 300,000 people by the US, including innocent children and women, saying things like 'they had it coming'. Justifying it with strategic mumbo jumbo does not fly. At least show some humanity and empathy. How disappointing to see so many here are really heartlessly sub-human themselves. This is sickening.
Shalimar
SF VIP
- Location
- Vancouver Island Canada
I concur, Cookie. Also, the horrors perpetuated by some cruel Japanese, pale in comparison to the eradication of six million Jews by Hitler and his band of monsters. After the war, many of the Nazi war criminals were invited by the powers that be to live in America. Hmmm.
This was an all out war. Civilians always seem to get caught up in middle. I'm sure many do have regrets and many do not. Judgement, hindsight and after action analysis is always easier over time with access to information the participants didn't have or information historians never get. This is a tragic example of what blind loyalty leads to. This is also an impetus for many of the peace and nuclear weapons treaties that followed. They say war is heck for a reason.
Post a list of those criminals you claim were invited to the US. I lived in an area where many Germans decided to stay after the war was over. They had been kept in a prisoner camp nearby. Chose to stay in the states rather than go back to a destroyed Germany.
Never hears of criminals but for some that were returned to Germany for those world crime courts. Most I met were pretty nice folks.
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
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- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
Agree, you had to have been there in that mindset and time frame. All Americans were glad it was over but none took any great pleasure from the carnage. However, the Japanese atrocities were fresh on our minds too.
Underock1
Senior Member
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- Suburban NJ
Did you read my posts on the Rape of Nanking? 300,000 people, deliberately, and systematically murdered, raped, and tortured by the Japanese, for six full days. Not motivated by the hope of ending a war and saving more deaths, but to terrorize the population, and just for fun! If you have the stomach for it, you can find the pictures of babies on bayonets, and worse. Photos taken by the perpetrators to be sent back home with pride. "Dear Mom and Dad, Today I decapitated two men, raped and murdered three pregnant women, and bayoneted six babies"...and they accuse others of being "inhuman"?
Acknowledged as the single worst atrocity of WWII. Why are there no annual memorial services in Nanking?
Laurie
Senior Member
- Location
- Kingdom of Fife
All offers of surrender had the pre-condition that the Emperor remained in place and was inviolate.
That was not acceptable to the Allies (might have been acceptable to Truman, but never Churchill).
Unconditional surrender of both Germany and Japan was agreed very early in the war.
In fact there is a widely held body of opinion that we could have had peace Germany in 43/44 but Churchill was adamant, unconditional surrender.
That was not acceptable to the Allies (might have been acceptable to Truman, but never Churchill).
Unconditional surrender of both Germany and Japan was agreed very early in the war.
In fact there is a widely held body of opinion that we could have had peace Germany in 43/44 but Churchill was adamant, unconditional surrender.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
http://www.globalresearch.ca/operat...n-hundred-nazi-scientists-and-doctors/5369981
'...After World War II, the U.S. military hired sixteen hundred former Nazi scientists and doctors, including some of Adolf Hitler’s closest collaborators, including men responsible for murder, slavery, and human experimentation, including men convicted of war crimes, men acquitted of war crimes, and men who never stood trial. Some of the Nazis tried at Nuremberg had already been working for the U.S. in either Germany or the U.S. prior to the trials. Some were protected from their past by the U.S. government for years, as they lived and worked in Boston Harbor, Long Island, Maryland, Ohio, Texas, Alabama, and elsewhere, or were flown by the U.S. government to Argentina to protect them from prosecution. ...Not only scientists were hired. Former Nazi spies, most of them former S.S., were hired by the U.S. in post-war Germany to spy on — and torture — Soviets......Nazi scientists developed U.S. chemical and biological weapons programs, bringing over their knowledge of tabun and sarin, not to mention thalidomide — and their eagerness for human experimentation, which the U.S. military and the newly created CIA readily engaged in on a major scale. Every bizarre and gruesome notion of how a person might be assassinated or an army immobilized was of interest to their research. New weapons were developed, including VX and Agent Orange. A new drive to visit and weaponize outerspace was created, and former Nazis were put in charge of a new agency called NASA.......In 1947 Operation Paperclip, still rather small, was in danger of being terminated. Instead, Truman transformed the U.S. military with the National Security Act, and created the best ally that Operation Paperclip could want: the CIA. Now the program took off, intentionally and willfully, with the full knowledge and understanding of the same U.S. President who had declared as a senator that if the Russians were winning the U.S. should help the Germans, and vice versa,....'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
'Operation Paperclip (originally Operation Overcast) (1949–1990) was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which over 1,500 German scientists, technicians, and engineers from Nazi Germany and other foreign countries were brought to the United States for employment in the aftermath of World War II.[SUP][1][/SUP] It was conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA), and in the context of the burgeoning Cold War....'
That last link carries a list of names of German/Nazi scientists who were brought over but none of the recognizable names like Hess for example.
That is an impressive post for sure. But for the very dangerous leaders that I thought we had already separated and had trials for them, I see no problem with those folks having been related to some rather nasty German units. If they had the opportunity to come to the US and have respectable jobs, why not? Their government they worked for was now gone and a new opportunity in the US or where ever must have looked good to them.
I met several of them when I was just a young person in Jr High school back then, now called middle school. I never felt threatened by them and the town I lived in also had a large group of new Italians also living in the US. Also a bunch of grateful and friendly folks. In my working career I also met many after WWII settlers in the US. One was a German pilot, from Poland, and he was actually a humorous one to talk with. In spite of the hateful things of the war, I think the US did quite well with the ones that decided to stay in the US.
Of course, I never met those high level scientist that came over to do some heavy duty work for the US government. I think they were happy to come and live in the US rather that be taken in by Russia.
I met several of them when I was just a young person in Jr High school back then, now called middle school. I never felt threatened by them and the town I lived in also had a large group of new Italians also living in the US. Also a bunch of grateful and friendly folks. In my working career I also met many after WWII settlers in the US. One was a German pilot, from Poland, and he was actually a humorous one to talk with. In spite of the hateful things of the war, I think the US did quite well with the ones that decided to stay in the US.
Of course, I never met those high level scientist that came over to do some heavy duty work for the US government. I think they were happy to come and live in the US rather that be taken in by Russia.
Many Nazi's did wind up working with the Allies with the process being started before Paper Clip or the Nuremberg War trials. Goes back to hindsight there and then. It's not a pleasant or most just way to do business. But it was practical just as giving hit man gangsters witness protection and immunity to testify for much bigger fish and entire networks. And if an ex Nazi did come forward and offer you more information in a couple of interviews than in years of investigations I regrettably might take that deal. The capture of leadership and elimination of the movement/big picture operation was the goal. One of the things the Allies were worried about in Europe and Japan was the peace, not only leadership but knowledge of the local infrastructure and public services in which an ex military officer or political official could actually help along with having influence over local populations ie most will trust and work harder for one of their own compared to an outsider.
Underock, Nanking was performed by Japanese military not the citizens of Japan. Brainwashed citizens and foot soldiers are just pawns and always the last to know what is really going on and why in the War Games planned and played by the military and governments of the world, then and now. And the people will continue to pay with their lives in the never ending chess games played by the ruling powers.
Debby
Well-known Member
- Location
- East coast of Canada
Not an impressive post by any means, just cut and paste. And I understand your point WhatInThe, just as I've come to understand that all governments are in the business of expediency or 'whatever works'. Even my own government, my 'peace keeping' government has been involved in a couple of things that I personally feel are despicable and fall far outside the reputation that we Canadians would like to feel that we project. But it is what it is right and the only thing left for me is to look forward to the day when I truly no longer have to care about any of this....until I have to again
and maybe then I'll pick a different time or a different planet! Toodle-loo folks and enjoy the afternoon!But those soldiers probably had a mindset going into the military. The military gives one discipline and keeps one motivated. But motivation for non military deeds comes from civilian life & attitudes. I've always heard the Koreans, Chinese and Japan all hated each other with a passion. They might from the Orient to a westerner but there were distinct differences in opinion, treatment and history amongst those three.
Embarrassed to use this example but the soldiers that got caught urinating on dead corpses in Afghanistan probably already had a preset attitude about Muslims and Afghanees from civilian life. There existing lack respect made military discipline that much easier to ignore or overcome. Same for the soldiers in Japan. Old sayings like you can judge a society on how they treat their prisoners or conquered in this case is pretty accurate.
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
The soldiers in the Japanese military were the citizens of Japan. Excuse me for saying so, but you really seem desperate to excuse the Japanese for any culpability what so ever, while accusing the US, ( not to mention myself ), of being "inhuman". The decision to drop the bomb, whether right or wrong, was not made lightly. There wereat least some good reasons to consider it. Whether there were alternatives to the act is still being debated. It was a horrific thing. No doubt about that. It must never be allowed to happen again. I do have compassion for those who died for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I am worked up about this after watching a Japanese survivor describe it as an "inhuman" act. It pales in comparison to the multiple inhuman acts committed by the Japanese throughout the war which they started. Hiroshima comes off as humane when compared to Nanking. There were more people killed there in a six day orgy of blood and horror. Would you rather be incinerated in an eye blink, or watch your pregnant daughter have her belly slit open and the fetus thrown in the fire, while you wait your turn? I'm sorry to be crude here, but I'm a just a little bit put off by whose calling who "inhuman".
AZ Jim
R.I.P. With Us In Spirit Only
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- SURPRISE, ARIZONA
I disagree Cookie and I would argue that as it relates to this it is you who is not objective.
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
Preconceptions, assumptions, and stereotyping. Totally wrong. The documents are there. The photos are there. I was there. You were not. With all due respect, I think you haven't got the slightest idea what you are talking about, but we're good. I accept your non-apology. I'm going to go cut up a puppy for supper now.
Underock1
Senior Member
- Location
- Suburban NJ
Careful, Jim. Your atrophy is showing.