End of the road for Electric Cars ?

My personal opinion . . . FWIW.

Electricity is not a primary source of energy. It's just a vector for moving energy from one place to another. Primary energy sources are sunlight, organic fuels (oil, coal, gas), nuclear, and, to a more limited extent wind, geothermal, and hydro.

Electricity to charge batteries in an electric car still has to come from a primary source. Electricity generated by coal, oil, or gas fueled power plants does nothing to reduce our reliance on organic primary sources. Wind and active solar technologies as we now know them fall far short of being practical for use on the scale that would be required to support migration to an all-electric society.

Although there are a number good, but limited, applications for hydro, wind, and active solar, if we want to exclude organic organic energy sources for society as a whole we will need to look to either nuclear or a different type of solar.

The ultimate solution will likely be a combination of technologies but we still have a long way to go. IMO, plug-in electric cars will not be part of the solution. :rolleyes:
 

Tommy said:
My personal opinion . . . FWIW.

Electricity is not a primary source of energy. It's just a vector for moving energy from one place to another. Primary energy sources are sunlight, organic fuels (oil, coal, gas), nuclear, and, to a more limited extent wind, geothermal, and hydro.

Electricity to charge batteries in an electric car still has to come from a primary source. Electricity generated by coal, oil, or gas fueled power plants does nothing to reduce our reliance on organic primary sources. Wind and active solar technologies as we now know them fall far short of being practical for use on the scale that would be required to support migration to an all-electric society.

Although there are a number good, but limited, applications for hydro, wind, and active solar, if we want to exclude organic organic energy sources for society as a whole we will need to look to either nuclear or a different type of solar.

The ultimate solution will likely be a combination of technologies but we still have a long way to go. IMO, plug-in electric cars will not be part of the solution. :rolleyes:
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Well, there is no free lunch, so EV transportation isn't perfect, but from what I can surmise, it is certainly a better solution than ICE's. The cost per month from charging an EV is about 1/3 that of burning fuel in an ICE. Now assuming the fuel used to generate the electricity to charge your car partially comes from oil, coal, and gas, it still requires substantially less fuel than just burning gas in your car's engine. If it used the same amount of fuel to generate the electricity as it did to power you car on gas, then the costs would be equal.

Some of the savings in the indirect fuel cost may come from the fact that when a car is idling (Warming up), and sitting at stop lights, you are burning gas with an ICE, but not in an EV. In addition, it's certain that batteries will become more efficient, and provide greater distance on the same charge, so the indirect cost for electrical generation will be even less going forward. JMO.
 
If we exclude the greed factor from this, technology will continue to advance and we will have a way to get from here to there with the most renewable resource/s we have invented. Always has been, always will be. But that greed factor can really slow the progress down.
 
Debrah N. said:
You people sure do get worked up about some weird things. Imagine, a new technology that's only good for the planet! Did cell phones bother you as much when they started appearing and people were gushing about how convenient it was?
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"You people?" My, that's a weird way to describe a fellow member, ain't it? :cool:

Here's a news flash for you -- cell phones STILL bother me, especially when I see people texting while driving. And the oft-cited image of people sitting around a dinner table all staring at their phones.

But that's "progress", right?
 
Eupher said:
"You people?" My, that's a weird way to describe a fellow member, ain't it? :cool:

Here's a news flash for you -- cell phones STILL bother me, especially when I see people texting while driving. And the oft-cited image of people sitting around a dinner table all staring at their phones.

But that's "progress", right?
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No it isn't a weird way because it references a 'group' who who have the same propensity to a thought process or actions. I'm sure at some point, I'll say something and the first thought that will pop into someone's mind, a similar 'you people' sort of comment and it won't bother me a bit because I know there are people who hold the same expressed idea or philosophy.

I have both a cell phone and an EV and I don't want anyone texting while they drive so you haven't said anything unusual. And likewise, I find it unfortunate that so many people are so absorbed in their cellphones that they seem to exclude the possibility of conversation or 'being present' in the moment.

But none of that rises to the level of 'despising the hype' to adopt a new technology that will address some of the pollution we are corporately spewing into the atmosphere to the detriment of all future generations. Ask Spaniards today, how they feel about climate change and the disaster that it has brought them this past week. And know, that it will get worse and impact many, many more as each year passes.

And if you think food prices are high now and immigration out of control, hold this phrase in your mind, 'up, up and away!'. Because climate change is going to affect those too. And sadly, all of that too is progress and will continue too long into the future, for the safety of our planet and future generations. Personally, I'm sad that there's so little interest in protecting this world for those people that none of us will ever know. But they will look back on this moment in time and be quite disgusted at our lack of care.
 
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HermitHogan said:
Just as soon as battery technology makes EVs practical for your average driver, EVs are going to make ICEs obsolete. By practical, the batteries are going to need to be able to be charged in 10 or 15 minutes — not three hours, which I believe is what they take now.
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When we were on holidays in our slow charging EV, we parked for 45 minutes while it charged back up, walked the dog, went for a coffee or had lunch.......and then came back to about 80%. Not three hours. And most people who buy EV's plug in at home at night and they don't need any different kind of charger but can plug into the house system. And when we lived in an apartment, there was an outlet on the post by our parking spot for vacuuming vehicles and we plugged into that.
 
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Debrah N. said:
No it isn't a weird way because it references a 'group' who who have the same propensity to a thought process or actions. I'm sure at some point, I'll say something and the first thought that will pop into someone's mind, a similar 'you people' sort of comment and it won't bother me a bit because I know there are people who hold the same expressed idea or philosophy.

I have both a cell phone and an EV and I don't want anyone texting while they drive so you haven't said anything unusual. And likewise, I find it unfortunate that so many people are so absorbed in their cellphones that they seem to exclude the possibility of conversation or 'being present' in the moment.

But none of that rises to the level of 'despising the hype' to adopt a new technology that will address some of the pollution we are corporately spewing into the atmosphere to the detriment of all future generations. Ask Spaniards today, how they feel about climate change and the disaster that it has brought them this past week. And know, that it will get worse and impact many, many more as each year passes.

And if you think food prices are high now and immigration out of control, hold this phrase in your mind, 'up, up and away!'. Because climate change is going to affect those too. And sadly, all of that too is progress and will continue too long into the future, for the safety of our planet and future generations. Personally, I'm sad that there's so little interest in protecting this world for those people that none of us will ever know. But they will look back on this moment in time and be quite disgusted at our lack of care.
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Uh huh. Right.

You completely fail to see my point. "Progress" does not equal "acquisition of technology". Or even "adoption of questionable theories".

I'll just leave it at that.
 
HermitHogan said:
They can clip a playing card to the fork so when the spokes hit it, it sounds like an engine. :ROFLMAO:
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Don't laugh too hard.

They have added external speakers that play noises, for example to help the blind avoid being hit by quiet cars.

Honda even added sounds played within the car on their HEVs to mimic engine noise and slushbox shifting to make the masses feel more comfortable. Thankfully one can turn that silliness off.
 
JustDave said:
Just wondering where hybrids fit in all of this.
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It depends on the "hybrid."

"Plug-ins" have all of the disadvantages of BEVs and all of the disadvantages of ICVs.

Ever proper HEVs that don't plug in are not all the same. Some barely use the electrical component for anything significant and run the gas/diesel engine the entire time.

Some HEVs are quite efficient, and some of them can run in "EV mode" for an extended duration while others cannot.

The better ones stretch a lot more miles from a tank of fuel, and that's their purpose. They have a much smaller and better protected (from impacts and heat/cold) traction battery pack than a plug-in or EV.

BEVs (Remote Combustion Vehicles) have little choice but to carry batteries in a sling underneath the vehicle, so stones and bumps and minor collisions can do a lot of expensive damage or start a serious fire very difficult to extinguish. Cold and hot weather are also a concern, so the big packs need significant active heating and cooling - which consumes more power parasitically.

Of course the nuclear, coal, natural gas, etc. gets burned elsewhere. "EVs" are a treat for the NIMBY set.
 
Farmers have pointed out that plant based diesel can eliminate all of the reasons why they claim that an EV mandate is necessary.
The batteries for EVs and the factories where they are made are so unstable that they are like living with a ticking bomb in your basement.
But it doesn’t seem to bother most people that the government is mandating that everyone must drive a potential bomb!
They can’t make an EV battery that doesn’t have the potential to explode and burn because of the kind of energy required from these batteries.
 
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GP44 said:
Farmers have pointed out that plant based diesel can eliminate all of the reasons why they claim that an EV mandate is necessary.
The batteries for EVs and the factories where they are made are so unstable that they are like living with a ticking bomb in your basement.
But it doesn’t seem to bother most people that the government is mandating that everyone must drive a potential bomb!
They can’t make an EV battery that doesn’t have the potential to explode and burn because of the kind of energy required from these batteries.
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Renewable diesel is a fuel made from fats and oils, such as soybean oil or canola oil, and is processed to be chemically the same as petroleum diesel.
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I'm not sure how plant based diesel solves the problem that concerns us. It's chemically the same as petroleum diesel. What we want to do is curtail he use of fuel that produces CO2. The problem is global climate change, not an energy shortage.
 
GP44 said:
Farmers have pointed out that plant based diesel can eliminate all of the reasons why they claim that an EV mandate is necessary.
The batteries for EVs and the factories where they are made are so unstable that they are like living with a ticking bomb in your basement.
But it doesn’t seem to bother most people that the government is mandating that everyone must drive a potential bomb!
They can’t make an EV battery that doesn’t have the potential to explode and burn because of the kind of energy required from these batteries.
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Then I guess you shouldn't have rechargeable batteries of any sort. Toss out your computers, laptops, iPads, cell phones, generators......
 
dilettante said:
Is it though? Really?

Why has Germany been arresting people poaching firewood for the last 3 years?
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Maybe it's because they are POACHING for one. Even in Canada, we can't take firewood from crown land unless we have some sort of special permit issued by the government. Nor can one steal wood from a privately owned forest acreage.
 
Eupher said:
Uh huh. Right.

You completely fail to see my point. "Progress" does not equal "acquisition of technology". Or even "adoption of questionable theories".

I'll just leave it at that.
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I'm always amazed at how easily the goal post slides when it comes to issues that have observable facts attached.

I once listened to a university professor discuss the difference between conservatives and progressives. It basically amounted to fear preventing some folks from stepping out and testing new ideas and preferring to stick with what they know. Isn't it a good thing there are the rest of us out here in the world because otherwise, we'd all still be living in caves.
 
GP44 said:
Farmers have pointed out that plant based diesel can eliminate all of the reasons why they claim that an EV mandate is necessary.
The batteries for EVs and the factories where they are made are so unstable that they are like living with a ticking bomb in your basement.
But it doesn’t seem to bother most people that the government is mandating that everyone must drive a potential bomb!
They can’t make an EV battery that doesn’t have the potential to explode and burn because of the kind of energy required from these batteries.
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The government is "mandating" that everyone needs to drive an EV. I must not have gotten the memo! :ROFLMAO:
 
Tommy said:
My personal opinion . . . FWIW.

Electricity is not a primary source of energy. It's just a vector for moving energy from one place to another. Primary energy sources are sunlight, organic fuels (oil, coal, gas), nuclear, and, to a more limited extent wind, geothermal, and hydro.

Electricity to charge batteries in an electric car still has to come from a primary source. Electricity generated by coal, oil, or gas fueled power plants does nothing to reduce our reliance on organic primary sources. Wind and active solar technologies as we now know them fall far short of being practical for use on the scale that would be required to support migration to an all-electric society.

Although there are a number good, but limited, applications for hydro, wind, and active solar, if we want to exclude organic organic energy sources for society as a whole we will need to look to either nuclear or a different type of solar.

The ultimate solution will likely be a combination of technologies but we still have a long way to go. IMO, plug-in electric cars will not be part of the solution. :rolleyes:
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Electricity is not a "source for energy or a vector for moving energy"; electricity is a form of energy. Sunlight is also a form of energy. Organic fuels are not forms of energy but they do contain energy potentials, which are activated when the fuels are combusted.

Electricity is produced by generators that can be powered by a number of sources including engines, water or wind driven turbines, and a few other sources. Solar power is converted into electricity primarily through photovoltaic cells found in solar panels.

EVs may at some time in the distant future be powered by something other than electricity from batteries. It might be electricity generated directly from cold fusion or fuel cells or some other form of electricity generation which may or may not require a mechanism to store the energy. Currently, we're stuck with batteries, but battery technology is advancing rapidly so we'll need to wait to see how it evolves.
 
dilettante said:
Why has Germany been arresting people poaching firewood for the last 3 years?
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I can speculate that it's because poaching is theft and against the law. But you would have to ask the German authorities. Here in the US, I lived in a logging community for 40 years and heated exclusively with wood all most all of that time even though the health authorities discouraged it because the particulate output. There was a controversy over passing laws to prevent it, but heating with wood was a tradition, and the health issues were politically ignored. It was cheaper than heating with gas or electric. Although I could have afforded either of those alternatives. Today I heat with a heat pump and electric auxiliary, and I consider it very affordable.
 
My point was that their energy crisis is so bad that people are going out for wood in the desperate attempt to keep warm.

But of course you knew that.
 
Electric vehicles have been used in manufacturing plants for years. Everything from golf carts to tow trucks and fork lifts.
They have charging stations for the personal carriers and they have battery swap out stations for the big machines.
Swapping the batteries out in an EV would take less time and could be handled at a battery swap charging station.
That would eliminate the hours long wait time to finish your trip with the EV.
Better yet swap out the whole vehicle for a fully charged one for a fee.
But I can see where there would be a lot of problems with any of those ideas.
Few people wouldn’t want a shared vehicle program.
I want two EVs so that I can charge one while I drive one or maybe an EV truck so that I can tow a spare EV along on a long trip.
 

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