Columbus Does Not Discover America

If Columbus does not discover America, the Native Americans are free to rule until the Japanese decide to cross the Berring Strait, travel down through Alaska and Canada into California where they are challenged by the Mexicans for supremacy in North America. They (the Mexicans) do a deal where The Japanese take Northern CA and the Mexicans take Southern CA and there's a wholly frijole time at the taco stand cum sushi bar. They intermarry, build railroads, establish farms and ranches until they eventually reach New York where everyone settles happily except the Native Americans who continue to war with each other until only two tribes remain. They join up eventually with the Mexicans because they love the siestas and the Japanese work too damned hard anyway and who understands all that electronics mumbo jumbo.

Sorry to take the light hearted approach here, but I'm not sure what was required.
 
chic said:
If Columbus does not discover America, the Native Americans are free to rule until the Japanese decide to cross the Berring Strait, travel down through Alaska and Canada into California where they are challenged by the Mexicans for supremacy in North America. They (the Mexicans) do a deal where The Japanese take Northern CA and the Mexicans take Southern CA and there's a wholly frijole time at the taco stand cum sushi bar. They intermarry, build railroads, establish farms and ranches until they eventually reach New York where everyone settles happily except the Native Americans who continue to war with each other until only two tribes remain. They join up eventually with the Mexicans because they love the siestas and the Japanese work too damned hard anyway and who understands all that electronics mumbo jumbo.

Sorry to take the light hearted approach here, but I'm not sure what was required.
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No. That's fine, Chic. I like it. :laugh: I guess what I was trying to feel out here, without injecting my own bias, was the standard mantra about how the cruel ( which they were ) Europeans came over and robbed and murdered the innocent native Americans who just wanted to weave their baskets in peace. I was just wondering what possible scenario the people who wring their hands over that would put in its place. Yes. It was a cruel fate for the natives, but inevitable. As you point out, if not the Europeans, then certainly the Russians, and/or Japanese. There seems to be some fairy land idea implied, that if the Europeans had just stayed home, that the natives would still be living simple lives in tune with nature and herds of Bison.
Before I get killed here for being racist, I fully acknowledge the terrible mistreatment of the noble, environmentally conscious, but not so peaceful natives.
 
Shalimar said:
I think the First Peoples might argue that America/Canada were not lost.
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I agree, but saying that Columbus, the Vikings, or whoever else didn't "discover" it is not correct. They all discovered it for themselves, just as each of us "discovered" sex.
 
Underock1 said:
No. That's fine, Chic. I like it. :laugh: I guess what I was trying to feel out here, without injecting my own bias, was the standard mantra about how the cruel ( which they were ) Europeans came over and robbed and murdered the innocent native Americans who just wanted to weave their baskets in peace. I was just wondering what possible scenario the people who wring their hands over that would put in its place. Yes. It was a cruel fate for the natives, but inevitable. As you point out, if not the Europeans, then certainly the Russians, and/or Japanese. There seems to be some fairy land idea implied, that if the Europeans had just stayed home, that the natives would still be living simple lives in tune with nature and herds of Bison.
Before I get killed here for being racist, I fully acknowledge the terrible mistreatment of the noble, environmentally conscious, but not so peaceful natives.
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I don't think there is any 'fairy-land' idea about peaceful First Nations people blah, blah, blah. That would be silly wouldn't it because even amongst themselves, many early cultures had issues BUT you can't argue that whites didn't come in with their 'advanced' capabilities and brutalize people who were doing their own thing, in their own time. And if you look even today in current society, there still seems to be the same attitude among far too many whites that 'we' are superior simply because we are white.
 
Debby said:
I don't think there is any 'fairy-land' idea about peaceful First Nations people blah, blah, blah. That would be silly wouldn't it because even amongst themselves, many early cultures had issues BUT you can't argue that whites didn't come in with their 'advanced' capabilities and brutalize people who were doing their own thing, in their own time. And if you look even today in current society, there still seems to be the same attitude among far too many whites that 'we' are superior simply because we are white.
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Oh, I absolutely agree with that. I've read enough history from original sources, and lived here for 82 years. I know all of the accusations to be absolutely true. My thread in no way is an attempt to defend the abuses committed against the natives during the expansion of the country. I'm merely asking if not the Europeans, then what?
Lets strike a balance, though. As you mention, the natives were doing a pretty good job of beating, not to mention eating each other up long before anyone else ever set foot here. Lets be thankful that we live in happier times.
 
Seriously speaking and with no humor injected, I do believe that with no European adversaries on the horizon, Asians would have travelled to and conquered the Native American peoples in the name of enterprise or "Manifest Destiny". People do exploit. It's human nature. It may be wrong but that's what I believe would have happened in answer to Underock's original question.

Thank you for making me think! This is a compelling thread.
 
chic said:
Seriously speaking and with no humor injected, I do believe that with no European adversaries on the horizon, Asians would have travelled to and conquered the Native American peoples in the name of enterprise or "Manifest Destiny". People do exploit. It's human nature. It may be wrong but that's what I believe would have happened in answer to Underock's original question.

Thank you for making me think! This is a compelling thread.
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Thank you for the reply, Chic. I agree with you 100%. That was the point of my post. There seems to me to be some naive assumption on the part of many that the natives would still be living idyllic lives that never were, if those naughty Europeans had just stayed home. The alternatives may have been worse. The Asians and Russians of the time were not known for being great humanitarians.
 
Underock1 said:
Thank you for the reply, Chic. I agree with you 100%. That was the point of my post. There seems to me to be some naive assumption on the part of many that the natives would still be living idyllic lives that never were, if those naughty Europeans had just stayed home. The alternatives may have been worse. The Asians and Russians of the time were not known for being great humanitarians.
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I see the point of this now. I agree totally with you about that. Certainly Japan was an expansionist nation and unafraid to invade it's neighbors to expand it's territory. The Chinese had gun powder and knew how to use it. Definitely the Native Americans downfall cannot be blamed on Columbus and Europeans. I've never understood that philosophy. If not the Europeans, some other nation would have conquered the Americas.
 
chic said:
I see the point of this now. I agree totally with you about that. Certainly Japan was an expansionist nation and unafraid to invade it's neighbors to expand it's territory. The Chinese had gun powder and knew how to use it. Definitely the Native Americans downfall cannot be blamed on Columbus and Europeans. I've never understood that philosophy. If not the Europeans, some other nation would have conquered the Americas.
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Exactly. That's all I'm saying. Consider yourself not politically correct.
 
Underock1 said:
Exactly. That's all I'm saying. Consider yourself not politically correct.
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Okay. So be it. But I don't see why I, or any other American, should have to be constantly apologizing for the behaviour of an explorer who lived over 500 years ago. Where does it stop?

Maybe there is such a thing as being too politically correct?
 
chic said:
Okay. So be it. But I don't see why I, or any other American, should have to be constantly apologizing for the behaviour of an explorer who lived over 500 years ago. Where does it stop?

Maybe there is such a thing as being too politically correct?
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Any "politically correct" is too politically correct. We are all entitled to our own opinions. We share the same views on this topic.
 
Funny how everyone else fell silent though isn't it? There must be many who don't want to appear politically incorrect publicly. Oh well. Such is life. But I enjoyed this thread because it made me think and I still do. Reminds me of watching the debating team in college.
 
chic said:
Funny how everyone else fell silent though isn't it? There must be many who don't want to appear politically incorrect publicly. Oh well. Such is life. But I enjoyed this thread because it made me think and I still do. Reminds me of watching the debating team in college.
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The things I find interesting tend to bore most people. Thanks for saving this thread from a horrible death.
 
Have you explored (pun intended) possibilities of pre Asian migration by Polynesia islanders into South America and their migration into the north forming some of the Indian nations.
 

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