squatting dog
We don't have as far to go, as we've already been
- Location
- Arkansas, and also Florida
Two Children Killed In School Shooting
- Thread starter oldman
- Start date
That's assuming they all knew about that rare, unusual gun.
Frankly, I don't care what the founding fathers thought. They couldn't predict the future, they couldn't imagine out huge population, our manufacturing ability our urban lifestyles, and they weren't God. The United States Constitution is not the Ten Commandments. It is not sacred.
It's a very good document written by some smart men, but just like our politicians today they were imperfect and human.
If the constitution is keeping us from living safe lives we should change it.
Frankly, I don't care what the founding fathers thought. They couldn't predict the future, they couldn't imagine out huge population, our manufacturing ability our urban lifestyles, and they weren't God. The United States Constitution is not the Ten Commandments. It is not sacred.
It's a very good document written by some smart men, but just like our politicians today they were imperfect and human.
If the constitution is keeping us from living safe lives we should change it.
No 'may' about it - I clearly said I disagree with it and that I am happy with the laws on such here.
Your constitutional safeguard is something the gun lobby pushes as a reason against gun reforms - by definition then, their mantra.
Hence nothing changes and sadly these sort of events continue unabated.
Cornhusker
Member
- Location
- Nebraska Panhandle
When a drunk driver kills a carload of people, would you advocate taking the cars away from everyone not involved?
When some nut rents a box truck, should we immediately outlaw box trucks?
Trucks are killing machines you know. Blame the truck, not the driver.
When some nut rents a box truck, should we immediately outlaw box trucks?
Trucks are killing machines you know. Blame the truck, not the driver.
officerripley
Well-known Member
- Location
- Porlock, Calif
True. Elliott Rodger's (the mass killer who killed six in Isla Vista) mother had tried very hard to get him help. She had hired counselor after counselor and therapist after therapist to try to help him. She was divorced from Elliot's father but did her best to enlist his help also in getting Elliott some help.
She and her daughter (Elliott's sister) had lunch with Elliott not too long before the killings and said that he seemed to be doing better; the experts who have studied this say it's common: once the killer has decided that murder and often suicide is their only way out of their perceived "terrible" life, there will be a "brightening" of their mood now that they "see what needs to be done." So sometimes these people are perceived by others around them as "he seemed to be getting better." So you can't always blame the mother or other family members or friends if they're not experienced therapists.
Cornhusker, trucks are not "killing machines" in the way that you are implying. Anything at all can be a "killing machine," if we use that logic. If you kill someone by throwing a toaster at his head, then toasters are killing machines. If you strangle someone to death, then hands are killing machines.
Cars and trucks were invented and are used for a completely different purpose than killing. They are not meant to be weapons, any more than the toaster in the above paragraph. But guns have always been meant to wound or kill. That is their only purpose. They are not comparable with cars.
Officerripley, I think the problem you are addressing is not whether the mother got enough help for a mentally ill person. It is whether a person with mental illness should be able to legally(!) buy a gun. They are much too easy to buy, especially by people who are much too young to use them responsibly, or by the mentally ill or twisted fanatics.
If we want to blame anyone, it should be a culture that has always glorified guns. Until recently, every little boy (and maybe some of the girls had a toy gun.)
Cars and trucks were invented and are used for a completely different purpose than killing. They are not meant to be weapons, any more than the toaster in the above paragraph. But guns have always been meant to wound or kill. That is their only purpose. They are not comparable with cars.
Officerripley, I think the problem you are addressing is not whether the mother got enough help for a mentally ill person. It is whether a person with mental illness should be able to legally(!) buy a gun. They are much too easy to buy, especially by people who are much too young to use them responsibly, or by the mentally ill or twisted fanatics.
If we want to blame anyone, it should be a culture that has always glorified guns. Until recently, every little boy (and maybe some of the girls had a toy gun.)
StillLearning
Member
- Location
- Minnesota
Minneapolis is MY city. My grandchildren went to summer camp at a church about 3 weeks ago a mile from where this happened. My daughter’s friend has children that go to that school. My son works with a young guy that used to hang out with the killer.
THIS doesn’t happen here, it always happens other places. Until it does.
My heart is so heavy. What kind of world are we leaving our children and grandchildren?
THIS doesn’t happen here, it always happens other places. Until it does.
My heart is so heavy. What kind of world are we leaving our children and grandchildren?
The child killer Robin Westman blames his mom and weed for being messed up.
Minneapolis gunman Robin Westman blamed massacre on mom warning him not to change gender— and discouraged people from letting their kids transition
Wonder if he was smoking pot at the time of the killings and/or how much. Excess pot can lead to pot psychosis.
As an underage teen I can see him blaming his mom but he was a 23 year old 'adult'. Part of the issue may be that many teens/youth are being cow towed to by their parents and society in general. This is why parents at times just have to be parents and not a friend or cheerleader. It also must be emphasized the older one get the more responsibility they will have.
Once 18 one should/will have to accept as a legal adult the consequences of their decisions. But as an adult one can make their own decisions.
Minneapolis gunman Robin Westman blamed massacre on mom warning him not to change gender— and discouraged people from letting their kids transition
Wonder if he was smoking pot at the time of the killings and/or how much. Excess pot can lead to pot psychosis.
As an underage teen I can see him blaming his mom but he was a 23 year old 'adult'. Part of the issue may be that many teens/youth are being cow towed to by their parents and society in general. This is why parents at times just have to be parents and not a friend or cheerleader. It also must be emphasized the older one get the more responsibility they will have.
Once 18 one should/will have to accept as a legal adult the consequences of their decisions. But as an adult one can make their own decisions.
officerripley
Well-known Member
- Location
- Porlock, Calif
True!
Two things can be possible at once. For example, we may need to pay more attention to the warning signs that a mass killing might be imminent. Where was the FBI on this? Robert/Robin posted their intentions to harm others.
At the same time, it seems obvious to me that we need tighter national gun laws. Going state by state does little good. I'm for a total ban on semiautomatic weapons, both long rifles and pistols, and much stricter controls on the sale and licensing of all firearms. There is a world of difference between a bolt action deer rifle and an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine.
And please don't spout that BS about cars, hammers, etc. killing people.
At the same time, it seems obvious to me that we need tighter national gun laws. Going state by state does little good. I'm for a total ban on semiautomatic weapons, both long rifles and pistols, and much stricter controls on the sale and licensing of all firearms. There is a world of difference between a bolt action deer rifle and an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine.
And please don't spout that BS about cars, hammers, etc. killing people.
spookycat2
Member
- Location
- Indiana
Most of the perpetrators of gun violence of this type are from the hands of people with mental issues of some type. I have noticed a connection of "nut-ism" (a better name escapes me...) and the medical community taking meds away from people who need them, claiming the meds were being abused. But then, meds have been being abused for a long time.
Also notice when they got strict on meds, heroin use jumped up, and right after that, Mexico/China were bringing in Fentanyl to medicate the people. Now there's a solution- either, our Government stops meds to people who need them, or they can get something off the black market that will kill them. People were taking drugs in the 70s (when I was in junior high, if you asked around you could find anything you wanted).
But something happened after The War on Drugs... along with a sharp change in our youth culture the last decade or more.... I dunno. My gut tells me the cause is a much bigger picture than we know.
Also notice when they got strict on meds, heroin use jumped up, and right after that, Mexico/China were bringing in Fentanyl to medicate the people. Now there's a solution- either, our Government stops meds to people who need them, or they can get something off the black market that will kill them. People were taking drugs in the 70s (when I was in junior high, if you asked around you could find anything you wanted).
But something happened after The War on Drugs... along with a sharp change in our youth culture the last decade or more.... I dunno. My gut tells me the cause is a much bigger picture than we know.
| 1 | United States of America | 101 |
| 2 | Russia | 21 |
| 3 | France | 8 |
| 4 | Germany | 5 |
| 5 | Canada | 4 |
| 6 | Finland | 3 |
| 7 | Belgium | 2 |
| 8 | Czech Republic | 2 |
| 9 | Italy | 2 |
| 10 | Netherlands | 2 |
| 11 | Switzerland | 2 |
| 12 | Australia | 1 |
| 13 | Austria | 1 |
| 14 | Croatia | 1 |
| 15 | Lithuania | 1 |
| 16 | New Zealand | 1 |
| 17 | Norway | 1 |
| 18 | People's Republic of China | 1 |
| 19 | Slovakia | 1 |
| 20 | United Kingdom | 1 |
School shootings by country.
From AI: The statement "Most of the perpetrators of gun violence... are from the hands of people with mental issues of some type" is false. This belief is a persistent and harmful misconception. The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent, and only a very small percentage of violent crimes are committed by individuals with a serious mental illness.
Like so many other posters here, I feel very sorry for the trauma the parents of the little children that were killed. I don’t know how I would have reacted had any of my children would have experienced the same fate. It’s probably something that the parents will carry with them all through their life. I wish I had some words that would make them feel better or to help get them through this un-expecting moment.
No parent sends their child off to school and has any thought they would never return home again.
Day after day, we would have to walk by their bedroom while remembering that last good night kiss.
How does the traumatized parent get past this. Do they ever?
No parent sends their child off to school and has any thought they would never return home again.
Day after day, we would have to walk by their bedroom while remembering that last good night kiss.
How does the traumatized parent get past this. Do they ever?
CallMeKate
Well-known Member
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic US
No... never.
You keep trying to wave this away as a "gun lobby mantra," but that’s just your lazy rhetoric. The Bill of Rights existed long before the NRA and was written to protect ordinary citizens from being at the mercy of the state.
And history keeps proving why that safeguard matters. Look at Rwanda in 1994, between 500,000 and 800,000 unarmed Tutsis were hacked and beaten to death in 100 days. They had no firearms to defend themselves and UN troops were literally on the ground watching them being slaughtered and refused to intervene. Bottom-line, the world just stood by and watched while unarmed civilians were butchered.
That’s not a "mantra" that’s the brutal reality of what happens when people are left defenseless. You can say you’re happy with Australia’s laws, fine. But don’t kid yourself that an unarmed population is "safer". After all, history shows us quite the opposite.
Tossing around lists of school shootings doesn’t make Europe, Canada or China models of freedom. So, if we look closely at those countries you listed, we will see that in France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and Belgium writers, historians, and comedians are fined or jailed for speech the government decides is unacceptable.
Also, Canada has its Orwellian Human Rights Commission that has dragged editors and writers into costly proceedings simply for publishing controversial content, like the Danish cartoons. They weren’t criminal trials, but the process itself was the punishment. As for China, it needs no explanation. It’s a dictatorship where free speech exists only if it serves the Party.
So, yes, the USA has more violence, but unlike those countries it has a Bill of Rights that guarantees both free expression and the right to self-defense.
Brutal reality - children i n all other countries are FAR safer from mass shootings than in USA
at least in part thanks to the gun lobby's anti reform mantra.
No they're not! And you’re reframing my argument. I never denied that shootings happen in the U.S., what I said is history shows us that disarming a population doesn’t make people safer, it makes them powerless. That’s not a “mantra,” it’s a lesson written across history. In Hitler’s Germany Jews and political opponents were disarmed before their persecution escalated. In Stalin’s Soviet Union, Citizens had no right to bear arms, making it easy to imprison, exile, or execute millions of them. In Mao’s China unarmed peasants couldn’t resist collectivization and the purges that killed millions of them.
How about Pol Pot’s Cambodia? The unarmed population there had no defense against one of the worst genocides of the 20th century. And we all know what happened in Rwanda in 1994. The Hutu militia slaughtered roughly 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus, hacking and beating many of them to death with machetes and clubs because they had no means of armed defense. Also, speaking of children, it's estimated that 300,000 victims of the Rwanda genocide were children who were hacked, shot, or burned to death. This data comes from United Nations estimates referenced by The New Yorker.
So while you point to tragedies in America, I’m pointing to an even greater danger and what happens when people have no means to resist at all. Free people accept risks while unarmed people live at the mercy of the powerful.
That's because you know you're outgunned. No pun intended. lol
Very sensible and insightful post.
You’re only talking about 3-4 pounds, depending on how large the grain is.
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Well I have lived in both the US and Canada and feel freer here in Canada!