If you know god, then what?

[OneEyedDiva]

Then keep the faith
Let go and let God
Enjoy your blessings
Say your prayers
Thank God you got up this morning

If you don't know God, then none of that applies.

 

[VaughanJB]

Some believe, some do not. Some believe you are going to hell, some do not. What does it matter to you????
why post the question? Do you care? I suspect that it does but you would rather not express it any further.
This is not an intellectual debate where you bring forth all the experts, all the knowledgable people that you have read. This is about you. The answer is simple but you're not ready for that.

Why would I care about what others think of me? Is that seriously the question?

In my case, idle curiosity. As I have stated, I have experienced first hand where I was treated differently (not invited into a home) due to a religious belief. Having had this, I'm curious as to how far it goes. That's all. It's not deeper than that.

I don't know if you're aware, but Social Media has recently had a bit of a circus over the Rapture. I won't go into the details, but someone, somewhere, was convinced that the Rapture was going to take place last month (and early this month). And while rage baiter's were out in force, it's clear there were some who thought they were going to rise up, and they left messages behind for those who didn't make the grade. Isn't that interesting?

I've been both. As a child I was sent to Sunday school like so many others and attended scripture classes at school. I was basically a generic protestant. Late in my teens I decided that God was a concept of the ancient human mind and became an atheist. I was obsessed with all things scientific.

I'll repeat earlier posts. When I was a child (5 years of age through 12), I attended a public school. Every single school day started with all the students congregating in a hall (it was known as an Assembly). In that assembly we would sing a hymn, have a pray, and speak the Lord's Prayer out loud. That was every single day. It was not a religious school, just a general public school. That was how the UK was back then. In fact, I was even in the choir, since I actually had a good voice before puberty hit.

I enjoyed religious study. I had my own Bible.

So it's not like I had no exposure. I think it's probably lacking today in the UK, but I'm not sure.

 

[JustDave]

So I have a question.

As a believer, does your belief affect how you feel or think about a non-believer?

And as a non-believer, does your conviction affect how you feel or think of a believer?

As a non-believer, I don't have much conviction about things I cannot know, including the issue of God. As far as my feelings toward believers, I only have negative feelings toward believers who tell me how I should think. I'm OK with those who don't.

Oddly, my best friends where I have been living for the last 20 years are a married couple who are fundamentalists. Religion has no effect on our relationship. We are more interested in cultivating other things of importance that bring us closer together. I'm very fond of them, and I believe they feel the same way about me. But our friendship does seem unusual.

 

[VaughanJB]

As a non-believer, I don't have much conviction about things I cannot know, including the issue of God. As far as my feelings toward believers, I only have negative feelings toward believers who tell me how I should think. I'm OK with those who don't.

Oddly, my best friends where I have been living for the last 20 years are a married couple who are fundamentalists. Religion has no effect on our relationship. We are more interested in cultivating other things of importance that bring us closer together. I'm very fond of them, and I believe they feel the same way about me. But our friendship does seem unusual.

I'll flip this on its head.

If you truly believe in God, and the need to worship at his feet, and to love by his rules at all times. If a belief to an afterlife is central to your life, and Hell is a terrible thing for those who don't believe: Then how can you NOT think lesser of non-believers?

 

[Pepper]

As a non-believer, I don't have much conviction about things I cannot know, including the issue of God. As far as my feelings toward believers, I only have negative feelings toward believers who tell me how I should think. I'm OK with those who don't.

Oddly, my best friends where I have been living for the last 20 years are a married couple who are fundamentalists. Religion has no effect on our relationship. We are more interested in cultivating other things of importance that bring us closer together. I'm very fond of them, and I believe they feel the same way about me. But our friendship does seem unusual.

My best friend of over 50 years is totally different from me politically & religiously. My opposite. We don't talk politics. We sometimes talk religion but only if I'm in a tolerant mood.

I sometimes want to break the friendship over these incredible differences, yet I don't, and neither does she.

 

[JustDave]

I'll flip this on its head.

If you truly believe in God, and the need to worship at his feet, and to love by his rules at all times. If a belief to an afterlife is central to your life, and Hell is a terrible thing for those who don't believe: Then how can you NOT think lesser of non-believers?

I can't speak for believers. It's not out of courtesy. I just can't speak for them. I even waited a long time before I replied myself, and I get the feeling no one is eager to address the question. It's a good question, deserving of thought, which makes it challenging, and I think some will be giving it a lot of thought, even if they don't respond.

 

[gruntlabor]

I'll flip this on its head.

If you truly believe in God, and the need to worship at his feet, and to love by his rules at all times. If a belief to an afterlife is central to your life, and Hell is a terrible thing for those who don't believe: Then how can you NOT think lesser of non-believers?

Easy for the pious believer!

Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. --Matthew 22:21,

Not so easy for the non-believer.

 

[rbtvgo]

When I was a child my brothers & me went to Sunday school. We heard the bible stories & had the proper fear that goes along with what we were taught to believe. We said the well known prayer beginning with " Now I lay me down to sleep" & the prayer always ended with us saying Please God make daddy's eyes better. Never did.

Then as I got older I'd hear people I knew personally pray for something to help others. Those prayers were never answered. Then I began to question the bible stories couldn't get an answer that made sense.

Maybe you can give me a reasonable explanation of where exactly this sentient being at least 13 billion years old lives. And how did he come into existence?

He didn't come in to existence. You did. He was here before you. Believing is simple. Understanding is complexed. Where did you come from?? Where did your mother come from? Her mother?
God does what he deems appropriate. Prayers are answered but they are not always according to what the prayer wants. They are according to what God decides. There is so much more but I suspect that I have not answered your question other then to point out that God is in control. A lot of Gods actions do not make any sense unless you know your creator. That is simple. Pray to him and wait for his response. He will respond. Be prepared to be puzzled but think his response thru.

 

[Knight]

He didn't come in to existence.

I thought so. But there sure are a lot of people that believe there is a being 13 billion years old that lives somewhere outside our universe that is real.

A one sided belief that excuses all the evil that has happened since mankind has been able to record history in some form.

I've always been puzzled how a supposedly benevolent being could refuse the prayers of children praying that their fathers eyesight be made better. No response because his eyesight never was made better. They were not praying for themselves. I'm not understanding how you think prayer works.

 

[Olivia]

If you know God, then what? ... Well, you realize He’s known you all along.

He called you by name. Now you are His.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

I've always been puzzled how a supposedly benevolent being could refuse the prayers of children praying that their fathers eyesight be made better. No response because his eyesight never was made better. They were not praying for themselves. I'm not understanding how you think prayer works.

When I read your first post about this (the prayer about eyesight) it bothered me much of the day, and now it appears again, "his eyesight never was made better." I'm not unsympathetic to your feelings.

When my wife was diagnosed with ALS, many prayed for her healing. She was not healed, and I almost lost my faith. I still don't think her death was fair. It was too early. I needed her, and still do.

The Bible has many examples of healing, and verses on praying for healing, but it also has examples of times when healing did not happen, even with prayers. I have to accept that God's will prevails, even in the face of my disappointment in the outcome. The Bible acknowledges the struggle of all believers regarding God's power to heal, but at the same time, it encourages finding comfort in God's sovereignty rather than denouncing him.

Before his crucifixion, Jesus prayed to God, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” His prayer showed both his humanity and his submission to God's plan.
I did not know until after her death that my wife had that very verse on a bookmarker in the nightstand by her side of our bed, and she never lost her faith all the way to the very end.

 

[VaughanJB]

See, I'm beginning to understand some of my own issues.

So much of being a believer seems to obfuscate logic and accountability. And I'm more of an empirical sort of dude.

Where did God come from? He's always been.
Does God answer prayers? He does, but it may not be in the way you imagine.
How are children sinners? They were born with original sin.

I mean, if I were looking to excuse a daydream, this would be the type of responses I'd give. Nothing can be measured, nothing can be shown, and something may happen, or not. We start with a debt (of some kind), no matter our circumstance.

It's all so nebulous. Which is where Blind Faith comes in. However, blind faith, as is often stated, is what you need when you lack evidence. Blind Faith suggests you should believe, even though there is no worldly (scientific) reason to do so.

This is the barrier I have. My brain doesn't work that way. I can't accept something beyond the universe we live in, beyond the processes and interactions we know (which is not to say we know everything about everything, because the universe is a VERY big place). I cannot accept that a new born, right from the womb, has sin.

We also know that psychological humans can find a great inner strength. We can fight through impossible odds. Some of the results of which appear to be attributed to a God.

Let alone all the different Gods. I saw a figure of 18,000 Gods or animals have, at one time or another, been worshiped by man. And Christianity spread, partly, by way of imperialism. And that the belief one has is connected to where you happen to be born (if you're born in India, you're more likely to be Hindu).

But much is obscured by the use religion is put. Can you really be a Christian that advocates for the death of the people of other nations (with other beliefs?)

Or how forgiveness is abused to make heinous acts legitimate.

I guess what I'm saying here is - belief isn't simply about a belief in a God, the question is far more complex.

 

[Knight]

Before his crucifixion, Jesus prayed to God, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” His prayer showed both his humanity and his submission to God's plan.
I did not know until after her death that my wife had that very verse on a bookmarker in the nightstand by her side of our bed, and she never lost her faith all the way to the very end.

Mack I do feel empathy for you on the loss of your wife. The fact that you still have faith that there is a plan amzases me. The reason I'm amazed is I can't understand what kind of being would plan for children to be born handicapped in some way. That & why planning would have some people evil. How is it possible to responsible for planning the miserable lives so many live & get a free pass on that? How is it possible to responsible for planning & then use free will as the excuse for all the wrong that happens?

I don't get planning. My youngest son became ill with covid, the infection traveled to his spine. Sepsis set in, surgery left him alive but a quadrapaligic on a ventilator. According to what you post that was planned by a being 13 billion yeas old. What kind of benevolent kind being does that?

Those with faith take nothing away from me so their happiness is not something I even think about trying to change. I post & ask questions like how did a being at least 13 billion years old come into being? And other questions that don't have solid answers that can be proven.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

Those with faith take nothing away from me so their happiness is not something I even think about trying to change.

Just so you know, Knight, I wouldn't want to take anything away from you, even if that were possible. The forum is for a multiplicity of perspectives. After reading yours, I expressed mine, but not to try to "change" you. That should not be either of our objectives.

And I'm truly sorry for what you wrote about your younger son. I'm trying to understand the pain you must feel as one human to another, irrespective of our beliefs about God.

 

[VaughanJB]

trying to change.

I never think of changing ones views. There is only discussion. When it comes to religion, it's rare for people the actually change. I speak only from a point of view that I don't understand something. What convinces others, leaves me bewildered.

I think there becomes a point where any kind of logical argument becomes mute. People don't believe due to logic. Religion, on its face - imo - is illogical. Always has been, is on its face, illogical.

So we are left with the fundamental question of who are we? Why are we? What came before, and what comes after? What of our genetics? What of evolution? What of purpose? What of intention? How can reality exist within the confines of our organic brain?

 

[rbtvgo]

When I read your first post about this (the prayer about eyesight) it bothered me much of the day, and now it appears again, "his eyesight never was made better." I'm not unsympathetic to your feelings.

When my wife was diagnosed with ALS, many prayed for her healing. She was not healed, and I almost lost my faith. I still don't think her death was fair. It was too early. I needed her, and still do.

The Bible has many examples of healing, and verses on praying for healing, but it also has examples of times when healing did not happen, even with prayers. I have to accept that God's will prevails, even in the face of my disappointment in the outcome. The Bible acknowledges the struggle of all believers regarding God's power to heal, but at the same time, it encourages finding comfort in God's sovereignty rather than denouncing him.

Before his crucifixion, Jesus prayed to God, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” His prayer showed both his humanity and his submission to God's plan.
I did not know until after her death that my wife had that very verse on a bookmarker in the nightstand by her side of our bed, and she never lost her faith all the way to the very end.

I cannot express my sorrow for your loss. ALS is the most horrible disease that anyone can imagine. A good friend of ours suffered thru 20 months and had to deal with much that you know. Why God allowed this I do not know. I do know that God deals with us all as individuals and all of us as his creation.
We serve a purpose to glorify God. He says he loves us but sometimes that is hard to except. Especially when a love one suffers so horribly. We need to keep our faith regardless. We have no options. Well, we do but, life without God is what? I really feel your pain, believe me. Lost my daughter 15 years ago and I am affected to this day. I still trust God.

 

[gruntlabor]

I thought so. But there sure are a lot of people that believe there is a being 13 billion years old that lives somewhere outside our universe that is real.

A one sided belief that excuses all the evil that has happened since mankind has been able to record history in some form.

I've always been puzzled how a supposedly benevolent being could refuse the prayers of children praying that their fathers eyesight be made better. No response because his eyesight never was made better. They were not praying for themselves. I'm not understanding how you think prayer works.

But hasn't God withdrawn himself from us for now?

And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. --Luke 4:6-7

 

[Naturally]

I think there’s a false choice in how belief is often framed by non-believers, as if faith and logic are mutually exclusive. They’re not the same tool, but they can work together.

Logic, science, and empirical thinking are about mechanisms ... the how. Faith asks about meaning ... the why. Science can show us how the heart pumps blood, how neural activity corresponds to thought, even how life evolved. But it doesn’t tell us why beauty moves us, or why love feels like purpose, or why we hunger for meaning at all. Those questions don’t fit neatly into empirical measurement, but that doesn’t make them unreal.

As someone noted, religion has been abused. It has been abused for power, for control, for empire. But that’s not unique to faith. That’s human nature expressing itself through whatever structure gives it leverage. The misuse of something doesn’t erase the truth it might hold. You can’t judge medicine by quackery, or science by the atom bomb, or love by the worst marriages.

As for “blind faith”, that phrase gets tossed around, but genuine faith isn’t blindness. It’s a willingness to trust in something beyond immediate proof after weighing the evidence of conscience, experience, and history. It’s not irrational, it’s transrational. It's stepping beyond the limits of reason, not against it.

Take “original sin”, not as a literal stain on newborns, but as a poetic way to say that human nature is inherently flawed, self-centered, prone to break what it touches. You don’t have to believe in Eden to see that truth lived out every day.

A statistic mentions 18,000 gods. True, humanity has always reached toward something greater. That alone says something about us. The hunger for transcendence seems universal, even if the expressions vary. Maybe that points not to illusion, but to a built-in longing for what’s real, like thirst points to water and all the iterations of refreshment and hydration.

And yes, there’s mystery. But mystery doesn’t mean nonsense. The universe itself is mysterious. Quantum mechanics, consciousness, existence itself. Faith simply says, maybe the mystery is personal. Maybe it speaks.

“I think there becomes a point where any kind of logical argument becomes mute.” I agree, not because faith rejects logic, but because logic alone can’t touch certain truths. Love can’t be proven, but we build our lives on it. Meaning can’t be weighed, but we need it to live.

So maybe faith isn’t an escape from logic, it’s what begins where logic ends.

 

[gruntlabor]

I'm a happier creature if I just deny the existence of everything I don't understqnd.