If you know god, then what?

[Pepper]

As a non-believer, I don't have much conviction about things I cannot know, including the issue of God. As far as my feelings toward believers, I only have negative feelings toward believers who tell me how I should think. I'm OK with those who don't.

Oddly, my best friends where I have been living for the last 20 years are a married couple who are fundamentalists. Religion has no effect on our relationship. We are more interested in cultivating other things of importance that bring us closer together. I'm very fond of them, and I believe they feel the same way about me. But our friendship does seem unusual.

My best friend of over 50 years is totally different from me politically & religiously. My opposite. We don't talk politics. We sometimes talk religion but only if I'm in a tolerant mood.

I sometimes want to break the friendship over these incredible differences, yet I don't, and neither does she.

 

[JustDave]

I'll flip this on its head.

If you truly believe in God, and the need to worship at his feet, and to love by his rules at all times. If a belief to an afterlife is central to your life, and Hell is a terrible thing for those who don't believe: Then how can you NOT think lesser of non-believers?

I can't speak for believers. It's not out of courtesy. I just can't speak for them. I even waited a long time before I replied myself, and I get the feeling no one is eager to address the question. It's a good question, deserving of thought, which makes it challenging, and I think some will be giving it a lot of thought, even if they don't respond.

 

[gruntlabor]

I'll flip this on its head.

If you truly believe in God, and the need to worship at his feet, and to love by his rules at all times. If a belief to an afterlife is central to your life, and Hell is a terrible thing for those who don't believe: Then how can you NOT think lesser of non-believers?

Easy for the pious believer!

Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. --Matthew 22:21,

Not so easy for the non-believer.

 

[rbtvgo]

When I was a child my brothers & me went to Sunday school. We heard the bible stories & had the proper fear that goes along with what we were taught to believe. We said the well known prayer beginning with " Now I lay me down to sleep" & the prayer always ended with us saying Please God make daddy's eyes better. Never did.

Then as I got older I'd hear people I knew personally pray for something to help others. Those prayers were never answered. Then I began to question the bible stories couldn't get an answer that made sense.

Maybe you can give me a reasonable explanation of where exactly this sentient being at least 13 billion years old lives. And how did he come into existence?

He didn't come in to existence. You did. He was here before you. Believing is simple. Understanding is complexed. Where did you come from?? Where did your mother come from? Her mother?
God does what he deems appropriate. Prayers are answered but they are not always according to what the prayer wants. They are according to what God decides. There is so much more but I suspect that I have not answered your question other then to point out that God is in control. A lot of Gods actions do not make any sense unless you know your creator. That is simple. Pray to him and wait for his response. He will respond. Be prepared to be puzzled but think his response thru.

 

[Knight]

He didn't come in to existence.

I thought so. But there sure are a lot of people that believe there is a being 13 billion years old that lives somewhere outside our universe that is real.

A one sided belief that excuses all the evil that has happened since mankind has been able to record history in some form.

I've always been puzzled how a supposedly benevolent being could refuse the prayers of children praying that their fathers eyesight be made better. No response because his eyesight never was made better. They were not praying for themselves. I'm not understanding how you think prayer works.

 

[Olivia]

If you know God, then what? ... Well, you realize He’s known you all along.

He called you by name. Now you are His.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

I've always been puzzled how a supposedly benevolent being could refuse the prayers of children praying that their fathers eyesight be made better. No response because his eyesight never was made better. They were not praying for themselves. I'm not understanding how you think prayer works.

When I read your first post about this (the prayer about eyesight) it bothered me much of the day, and now it appears again, "his eyesight never was made better." I'm not unsympathetic to your feelings.

When my wife was diagnosed with ALS, many prayed for her healing. She was not healed, and I almost lost my faith. I still don't think her death was fair. It was too early. I needed her, and still do.

The Bible has many examples of healing, and verses on praying for healing, but it also has examples of times when healing did not happen, even with prayers. I have to accept that God's will prevails, even in the face of my disappointment in the outcome. The Bible acknowledges the struggle of all believers regarding God's power to heal, but at the same time, it encourages finding comfort in God's sovereignty rather than denouncing him.

Before his crucifixion, Jesus prayed to God, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” His prayer showed both his humanity and his submission to God's plan.
I did not know until after her death that my wife had that very verse on a bookmarker in the nightstand by her side of our bed, and she never lost her faith all the way to the very end.

 

[VaughanJB]

See, I'm beginning to understand some of my own issues.

So much of being a believer seems to obfuscate logic and accountability. And I'm more of an empirical sort of dude.

Where did God come from? He's always been.
Does God answer prayers? He does, but it may not be in the way you imagine.
How are children sinners? They were born with original sin.

I mean, if I were looking to excuse a daydream, this would be the type of responses I'd give. Nothing can be measured, nothing can be shown, and something may happen, or not. We start with a debt (of some kind), no matter our circumstance.

It's all so nebulous. Which is where Blind Faith comes in. However, blind faith, as is often stated, is what you need when you lack evidence. Blind Faith suggests you should believe, even though there is no worldly (scientific) reason to do so.

This is the barrier I have. My brain doesn't work that way. I can't accept something beyond the universe we live in, beyond the processes and interactions we know (which is not to say we know everything about everything, because the universe is a VERY big place). I cannot accept that a new born, right from the womb, has sin.

We also know that psychological humans can find a great inner strength. We can fight through impossible odds. Some of the results of which appear to be attributed to a God.

Let alone all the different Gods. I saw a figure of 18,000 Gods or animals have, at one time or another, been worshiped by man. And Christianity spread, partly, by way of imperialism. And that the belief one has is connected to where you happen to be born (if you're born in India, you're more likely to be Hindu).

But much is obscured by the use religion is put. Can you really be a Christian that advocates for the death of the people of other nations (with other beliefs?)

Or how forgiveness is abused to make heinous acts legitimate.

I guess what I'm saying here is - belief isn't simply about a belief in a God, the question is far more complex.

 

[Knight]

Before his crucifixion, Jesus prayed to God, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” His prayer showed both his humanity and his submission to God's plan.
I did not know until after her death that my wife had that very verse on a bookmarker in the nightstand by her side of our bed, and she never lost her faith all the way to the very end.

Mack I do feel empathy for you on the loss of your wife. The fact that you still have faith that there is a plan amzases me. The reason I'm amazed is I can't understand what kind of being would plan for children to be born handicapped in some way. That & why planning would have some people evil. How is it possible to responsible for planning the miserable lives so many live & get a free pass on that? How is it possible to responsible for planning & then use free will as the excuse for all the wrong that happens?

I don't get planning. My youngest son became ill with covid, the infection traveled to his spine. Sepsis set in, surgery left him alive but a quadrapaligic on a ventilator. According to what you post that was planned by a being 13 billion yeas old. What kind of benevolent kind being does that?

Those with faith take nothing away from me so their happiness is not something I even think about trying to change. I post & ask questions like how did a being at least 13 billion years old come into being? And other questions that don't have solid answers that can be proven.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

Those with faith take nothing away from me so their happiness is not something I even think about trying to change.

Just so you know, Knight, I wouldn't want to take anything away from you, even if that were possible. The forum is for a multiplicity of perspectives. After reading yours, I expressed mine, but not to try to "change" you. That should not be either of our objectives.

And I'm truly sorry for what you wrote about your younger son. I'm trying to understand the pain you must feel as one human to another, irrespective of our beliefs about God.

 

[VaughanJB]

trying to change.

I never think of changing ones views. There is only discussion. When it comes to religion, it's rare for people the actually change. I speak only from a point of view that I don't understand something. What convinces others, leaves me bewildered.

I think there becomes a point where any kind of logical argument becomes mute. People don't believe due to logic. Religion, on its face - imo - is illogical. Always has been, is on its face, illogical.

So we are left with the fundamental question of who are we? Why are we? What came before, and what comes after? What of our genetics? What of evolution? What of purpose? What of intention? How can reality exist within the confines of our organic brain?

 

[rbtvgo]

When I read your first post about this (the prayer about eyesight) it bothered me much of the day, and now it appears again, "his eyesight never was made better." I'm not unsympathetic to your feelings.

When my wife was diagnosed with ALS, many prayed for her healing. She was not healed, and I almost lost my faith. I still don't think her death was fair. It was too early. I needed her, and still do.

The Bible has many examples of healing, and verses on praying for healing, but it also has examples of times when healing did not happen, even with prayers. I have to accept that God's will prevails, even in the face of my disappointment in the outcome. The Bible acknowledges the struggle of all believers regarding God's power to heal, but at the same time, it encourages finding comfort in God's sovereignty rather than denouncing him.

Before his crucifixion, Jesus prayed to God, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” His prayer showed both his humanity and his submission to God's plan.
I did not know until after her death that my wife had that very verse on a bookmarker in the nightstand by her side of our bed, and she never lost her faith all the way to the very end.

I cannot express my sorrow for your loss. ALS is the most horrible disease that anyone can imagine. A good friend of ours suffered thru 20 months and had to deal with much that you know. Why God allowed this I do not know. I do know that God deals with us all as individuals and all of us as his creation.
We serve a purpose to glorify God. He says he loves us but sometimes that is hard to except. Especially when a love one suffers so horribly. We need to keep our faith regardless. We have no options. Well, we do but, life without God is what? I really feel your pain, believe me. Lost my daughter 15 years ago and I am affected to this day. I still trust God.

 

[gruntlabor]

I thought so. But there sure are a lot of people that believe there is a being 13 billion years old that lives somewhere outside our universe that is real.

A one sided belief that excuses all the evil that has happened since mankind has been able to record history in some form.

I've always been puzzled how a supposedly benevolent being could refuse the prayers of children praying that their fathers eyesight be made better. No response because his eyesight never was made better. They were not praying for themselves. I'm not understanding how you think prayer works.

But hasn't God withdrawn himself from us for now?

And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. --Luke 4:6-7

 

[Naturally]

I think there’s a false choice in how belief is often framed by non-believers, as if faith and logic are mutually exclusive. They’re not the same tool, but they can work together.

Logic, science, and empirical thinking are about mechanisms ... the how. Faith asks about meaning ... the why. Science can show us how the heart pumps blood, how neural activity corresponds to thought, even how life evolved. But it doesn’t tell us why beauty moves us, or why love feels like purpose, or why we hunger for meaning at all. Those questions don’t fit neatly into empirical measurement, but that doesn’t make them unreal.

As someone noted, religion has been abused. It has been abused for power, for control, for empire. But that’s not unique to faith. That’s human nature expressing itself through whatever structure gives it leverage. The misuse of something doesn’t erase the truth it might hold. You can’t judge medicine by quackery, or science by the atom bomb, or love by the worst marriages.

As for “blind faith”, that phrase gets tossed around, but genuine faith isn’t blindness. It’s a willingness to trust in something beyond immediate proof after weighing the evidence of conscience, experience, and history. It’s not irrational, it’s transrational. It's stepping beyond the limits of reason, not against it.

Take “original sin”, not as a literal stain on newborns, but as a poetic way to say that human nature is inherently flawed, self-centered, prone to break what it touches. You don’t have to believe in Eden to see that truth lived out every day.

A statistic mentions 18,000 gods. True, humanity has always reached toward something greater. That alone says something about us. The hunger for transcendence seems universal, even if the expressions vary. Maybe that points not to illusion, but to a built-in longing for what’s real, like thirst points to water and all the iterations of refreshment and hydration.

And yes, there’s mystery. But mystery doesn’t mean nonsense. The universe itself is mysterious. Quantum mechanics, consciousness, existence itself. Faith simply says, maybe the mystery is personal. Maybe it speaks.

“I think there becomes a point where any kind of logical argument becomes mute.” I agree, not because faith rejects logic, but because logic alone can’t touch certain truths. Love can’t be proven, but we build our lives on it. Meaning can’t be weighed, but we need it to live.

So maybe faith isn’t an escape from logic, it’s what begins where logic ends.

 

[gruntlabor]

I'm a happier creature if I just deny the existence of everything I don't understqnd.

 

[MACKTEXAS]

I cannot express my sorrow for your loss. ALS is the most horrible disease that anyone can imagine. A good friend of ours suffered thru 20 months and had to deal with much that you know. Why God allowed this I do not know. I do know that God deals with us all as individuals and all of us as his creation.
We serve a purpose to glorify God. He says he loves us but sometimes that is hard to except. Especially when a love one suffers so horribly. We need to keep our faith regardless. We have no options. Well, we do but, life without God is what? I really feel your pain, believe me. Lost my daughter 15 years ago and I am affected to this day. I still trust God.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. The pain of losing a child has often been described as the greatest sorrow a parent can endure.

 

[JustDave]

I'm a happier creature if I just deny the existence of everything I don't understand.

Surely you jest.

 

[IrishEyes]

It simply is a "Choice" not a "Have to". No matter how your brain is wired you know of the belief, you know where to learn about it.
Who you can talk to about it and the believing is pretty remarkable as it can blend in with anything or anyway you are wired internally.
You either choose it, sit on the fence with it or reject it.
Here is one who finally came to the conclusion at age 60, it can be part of each other.

Allan Rex Sandage​

Allan Rex Sandage (b. 1926), a student of Edwin Hubble, is considered the greatest living observational astronomer. He is credited with the discovery of quasars (high energy distant galaxies) and with empirically determining the age of the universe. After Hubble died in 1953, Sandage continued his work. In 1965, Sandage introduced a method of identifying quasars by using specific radio position. Sandage, who became a Christian at age 60, has argued that “science can answer only a fixed type of question. It is concerned with the what, when, and how. It does not, and indeed cannot, answer within its method (powerful as that method is) why.”

 

[JustDave]

It simply is a "Choice" not a "Have to".

This is questionable, although I did think that belief in the supernatural could be a choice at one time. And that kept me searching for God until I was 52. Granted, it would require at least some convoluted leaps of reason, but I've been confronted by too many rational arguments that test that commonly held idea that belief is a choice.

I'm guessing that for some, beliefs are so ingrained and so real, that believers often suggest to skeptics that all they have to do is make a choice to believe. One countering argument would be to suggest to a believer that he choose not to believe, maybe just for a month. Even before I heard this argument, I one time asked a believer if it were possible for him to not believe, and he adamantly replied, "Absolutely not!" Although he replied too quickly to convince me that he had bothered to give the question any thought at all.

I don't think that beliefs are choices. Changing a belief requires a motivator powerful enough, whether rational or not, to convince us to believe otherwise.

 

[IrishEyes]

This is questionable, although I did think that belief in the supernatural could be a choice at one time. And that kept me searching for God until I was 52. Granted, it would require at least some convoluted leaps of reason, but I've been confronted by too many rational arguments that test that commonly held idea that belief is a choice.

I'm guessing that for some, beliefs are so ingrained and so real, that believers often suggest to skeptics that all they have to do is make a choice to believe. One countering argument would be to suggest to a believer that he choose not to believe, maybe just for a month. Even before I heard this argument, I one time asked a believer if it were possible for him to not believe, and he adamantly replied, "Absolutely not!" Although he replied too quickly to convince me that he had bothered to give the question any thought at all.

I don't think that beliefs are choices. Changing a belief requires a motivator powerful enough, whether rational or not, to convince us to believe otherwise.

I can respect your thinking and I do think the Ego is ingrained in it too. It's a multi-leveled very complex thing that involves what
a person has been raised by, introduced to, traumas that lead them to seek the why's, etc.
If we all stand up for something deeply enough to be pushed to be proven wrong, well that kicks in that defense thing we do that locks out that information we don't want to hear.
Life is so full of mystery, if we know the how/whys of it all, would there be any amazing things left to ponder over?
I personally don't want to know it all, I don't have to understand it all, I don't know how my doing that is really going to change my
life in a big way. Maybe for some it may.
I think if we knew it all it would totally imbalance future generations. And maybe that is why
we can't seem to solve the "Why" issue, we could be stealing hope for millions after us.

 

[JustDave]

Life is so full of mystery, if we know the how/whys of it all, would there be any amazing things left to ponder over?
I personally don't want to know it all, I don't have to understand it all.

I don't think we will ever run out of amazing things to ponder. And I don't need a mystery to ponder either. Even though I understand plate tectonics and fault block mountains, I ponder over why that part of nature has such an effect on me. Others have told me that this makes me spiritual, but I don't see it that way. I just know that my knees get weak, and my heart seems like it's been given a hypodermic full of gratitude, and that experience has not subsided in intensity during my life.

 

[IrishEyes]

I don't think we will ever run out of amazing things to ponder. And I don't need a mystery to ponder either. Even though I understand plate tectonics and fault block mountains, I ponder over why that part of nature has such an effect on me. Others have told me that this makes me spiritual, but I don't see it that way. I just know that my knees get weak, and my heart seems like it's been given a hypodermic full of gratitude, and that experience has not subsided in intensity during my life.

The one thing I constantly think about is our conscience. I had believed it came from role modeling, lessons in cause and effect, empathy, you know the life around us. Then I was a teacher in a toddler class and I noticed how these bitty people before doing something they knew they shouldn't, most always looked to see if I was watching them before they did it. Now if they were angry, their emotions took charge and they didn't look they just hit, grabbed or whatever to get what they wanted.
By looking at me first told me they knew it was wrong but they needed either to see if they could get away with it or needed the lesson of getting caught to confirm if it was right or wrong. So I argue with myself whether we are born with that sense of right/wrong or is it really
taught to us. That I think about more then why/who/ where/how the universe came to be.
It won't change my life or those around me knowing which it is or how it came to be, but this is my go to my grave thing I think will always be.

 

[gruntlabor]

This is questionable, although I did think that belief in the supernatural could be a choice at one time. And that kept me searching for God until I was 52. Granted, it would require at least some convoluted leaps of reason, but I've been confronted by too many rational arguments that test that commonly held idea that belief is a choice.

I'm guessing that for some, beliefs are so ingrained and so real, that believers often suggest to skeptics that all they have to do is make a choice to believe. One countering argument would be to suggest to a believer that he choose not to believe, maybe just for a month. Even before I heard this argument, I one time asked a believer if it were possible for him to not believe, and he adamantly replied, "Absolutely not!" Although he replied too quickly to convince me that he had bothered to give the question any thought at all.

I don't think that beliefs are choices. Changing a belief requires a motivator powerful enough, whether rational or not, to convince us to believe otherwise.

I agree, JustDave. I can no more help what I believe than I can fly. For me, it is not a choice. I have not been given the gift of faith.

 

[rbtvgo]

See, I'm beginning to understand some of my own issues.

So much of being a believer seems to obfuscate logic and accountability. And I'm more of an empirical sort of dude.

Where did God come from? He's always been.
Does God answer prayers? He does, but it may not be in the way you imagine.
How are children sinners? They were born with original sin.

I mean, if I were looking to excuse a daydream, this would be the type of responses I'd give. Nothing can be measured, nothing can be shown, and something may happen, or not. We start with a debt (of some kind), no matter our circumstance.

It's all so nebulous. Which is where Blind Faith comes in. However, blind faith, as is often stated, is what you need when you lack evidence. Blind Faith suggests you should believe, even though there is no worldly (scientific) reason to do so.

This is the barrier I have. My brain doesn't work that way. I can't accept something beyond the universe we live in, beyond the processes and interactions we know (which is not to say we know everything about everything, because the universe is a VERY big place). I cannot accept that a new born, right from the womb, has sin.

We also know that psychological humans can find a great inner strength. We can fight through impossible odds. Some of the results of which appear to be attributed to a God.

Let alone all the different Gods. I saw a figure of 18,000 Gods or animals have, at one time or another, been worshiped by man. And Christianity spread, partly, by way of imperialism. And that the belief one has is connected to where you happen to be born (if you're born in India, you're more likely to be Hindu).

But much is obscured by the use religion is put. Can you really be a Christian that advocates for the death of the people of other nations (with other beliefs?)

Or how forgiveness is abused to make heinous acts legitimate.

I guess what I'm saying here is - belief isn't simply about a belief in a God, the question is far more complex.

I re read your message a few times. Valid points.....all. There is so much you say that requires me to think about my own beliefs. I am going to work off your message and try to provide some thoughts that cause me to refute some things that you say. Blind faith has produced any number of results in this world that define explanation. People who defy death and live on. Those who face impossible odds and yet succeed.
Minor things like the "miracle on Ice" when the us team beat the Russians. No explanation other than faith. Blind Faith yes, but much more than strong desires by individual players. I guess what I am saying is that faith without interaction can only go on so long. Then, one tires and feels the futility of no confirmation. My problem with your words is that I, have an interaction with God. Which changes everything. No, not in words. God does not talk to me in words.
He response to me in my prayers. I will question something and he will respond with a question to me that requires me to think and look into his written word. I have never yet found his response to my questions, once searched out, to be incorrect. Do I want to believe, with all my heart, what I hear.................yes! but I doubt so I look up the passages. "No, this is wrong, this isn't God talking". This is my own mind.
Then I search the Bible, do the research and realize that he is correct. My years on this earth have led me to the conclusion that God has my back. I can't explain the horrors that go on everyday in this world. I can't offer any explanation. I search myself.
Yet, I know that he knows, he allows what he does because he is an all knowing God and that I am his creation. He will reveal to me what he wants but he desires me to trust him totally. He is God. Like the universe, he is beyond understanding. Blind Faith??? Like I said he knows me and interacts. so much more to say but this is enough for now.

 

[rbtvgo]

The supportive scripture adds to what I have said but does not get you to where I am trying to point you. He is present, now! He hears us, now! He did not create the universe and leave. He responds to his creation. Only thru a true belief in his existence can you hear. Otherwise you are praying to the wind. Acknowledge him! then speak. Don't, or can't acknowledge him then stop any further efforts. Wasting your time.
Possibly he is there????? Pray that. Speak your mind. Tell him you doubt. Tell him that this is a waste of time then be quiet and listen.