Turkey, NATO Ally, Shoots Down Russian Fighter Jet

On one hand I see Russia's point most the flight time was over Syria. But once they are in Turkey's airspace/territory all bets are off, especially after warnings.

It's one thing to be humanitarian and let a damaged plane land on your turf but another to let a country conduct military operations. That's like letting a local gang use your front lawn to conduct their business. Sooner or later their enemy will think you are their ally.
 

I remember in 1983 when the Russians downed a Korean Boeing 747 with all but 300 souls on-board. It was called an accident and the Russians claimed they had the right to do what they did because the Korean Airliner had strayed into their airspace. It was also noted that the pilot of the Russian jet fighter did indeed make visual confirmation before launching his missile. If it were me being the Russian pilot, why would I blow up a B-747? Unfortunately, the U.S. did have a spy plane on patrol in that area on the same night at the same time. That added to the Russian pilot's confusion, I guess.

The pilot of the B-747 made a very huge mistake. As it turned out, he was not aware of his instruments readings and settings.

 
First of all, 1983 the Soviet Union was still in power. That was not Russia.

On our news, they said that the piece of Turkey's land protrudes into Syria like a small 'finger' and at most, the Russian jet was over Turkey for a matter of seconds. So will that be the fatal few seconds that starts WW3?

I've also read that one of Russia's targets has been the oil tanker trucks that are carrying stolen oil for ISIS to a 'buyer' which is one of their sources of revenue and by the way, it has also been reported that Turkey is the buyer of that oil. When I first heard that, my feeling was 'finally someone has the brains to go after ISIS funding'! But apparently since Russia started doing so, the American military realized that they could no longer sit on their hands on this one, so they started doing it too....but with one little change. They like to drop leaflets and warn the drivers to run for the hills because America is coming in 45 minutes to bomb the trucks. Maybe Turkish men are driving those trucks eh? Wouldn't want to send your friends citizen's to paradise now would we?

I'm just going to give the link here and you can read it if you choose and beyond that, I'm not going to comment.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...ves-isis-45-minute-warning-oil-tanker-strikes
 
Debby said:
First of all, 1983 the Soviet Union was still in power. That was not Russia.

On our news, they said that the piece of Turkey's land protrudes into Syria like a small 'finger' and at most, the Russian jet was over Turkey for a matter of seconds. So will that be the fatal few seconds that starts WW3?

I've also read that one of Russia's targets has been the oil tanker trucks that are carrying stolen oil for ISIS to a 'buyer' which is one of their sources of revenue and by the way, it has also been reported that Turkey is the buyer of that oil. When I first heard that, my feeling was 'finally someone has the brains to go after ISIS funding'! But apparently since Russia started doing so, the American military realized that they could no longer sit on their hands on this one, so they started doing it too....but with one little change. They like to drop leaflets and warn the drivers to run for the hills because America is coming in 45 minutes to bomb the trucks. Maybe Turkish men are driving those trucks eh? Wouldn't want to send your friends citizen's to paradise now would we?

I'm just going to give the link here and you can read it if you choose and beyond that, I'm not going to comment.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...ves-isis-45-minute-warning-oil-tanker-strikes
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Our ABC reports that the Russian plane was warned repeatedly over five minutes. That is more than a couple of seconds..

Turkish fighter jets have shot down a Russian warplane near the Syrian border, with conflicting claims over whether the downed aircraft violated Turkish airspace. The two pilots ejected by parachute before the jet exploded and crashed into a ball of flames in northern Syria.

Both pilots were shot dead as they descended, according to a commander with a Turkmen brigade which fights against the Syrian Armed Forces. Turkmen are Syrians of Turkish descent.

Turkey's military said two Turkish F-16s were involved in shooting down the plane, after issuing 10 warnings in five minutes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syrian-border/6970776
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"First of all, 1983 the Soviet Union was still in power. That was not Russia."
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Maybe not, but Putin was, at the time, a senior officer in the KGB.

Leopards and spots and all that.

I think it will generate some pretty intense diplomatic activity.
 
And George Bush Senior was head of the CIA and we all know what they are capable of. The word 'torture' pops into my mind whereas Putin was a paper pusher and recruiter of informants. So which leopard would you like to discuss? The one who got told what to do by his bosses, or one who was a boss?
 
Warrigal said:
Our ABC reports that the Russian plane was warned repeatedly over five minutes. That is more than a couple of seconds..
Click to expand...


And since then the second pilot has been rescued and is now saying that he never got warnings before or during the 17 seconds that it could have taken to cross the two mile wide strip of land that protrudes into Syria if they had done that. Which by the way, an American spy satellite is now showing didn't happen.

'A Russian airman who has survived the downing of his warplane says Turkish jets did not issue any visual or radio warnings. Captain Konstantin Murakhtin said that he couldn't possibly have flown over into Turkish airspace because the crew knew the region "like the back of their hand". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html


And now from Rueters, 'American spy satellite says that Russian jet shot down over Syria' http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...sis-syria-turkey-impact-idUSKBN0TE04M20151125


Nor are very many remembering how Erdogun said this back in 2012: 'In 2012, Ankara accused Syria of shooting down a Turkish F-4 Phantom. That plane crash-landed in the Mediterranean after veering into Syrian airspace. In response, an outraged Erdogan lambasted the Syrian military for acting in haste."A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack," he told Parliament at the time.'

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151125/1030698044/erdogan-airspace-violation-contradiction.html


I wonder how many times Turkey has overflown Syria's border as they attack the Kurds who are one of the few groups that are effectively fighting ISIS in Syria and northern Iraq? http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/turkey-attacks-kurdish-fighters-syria-151027082432729.html


My question here is, when will the world quit just accepting as gospel, anything and everything that comes out of 'the coalition'. Those people have as much reason to lie as anyone else, including Russia. What you have to do is follow the rhetoric from the start, observe the actions of the parties involved and follow the money (who is funding ISIS) and look to see who would benefit from the departure of Assad. It is a mistake to look at each incident in isolation which is what we are encouraged to do by the invested parties. Those 'parties' are counting on apathy and lousy memories among the public.



 
Debby said:
And George Bush Senior was head of the CIA and we all know what they are capable of. The word 'torture' pops into my mind whereas Putin was a paper pusher and recruiter of informants. So which leopard would you like to discuss? The one who got told what to do by his bosses, or one who was a boss?
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Geez Debby.. can you never debate Russia and Putin WITHOUT slamming the USA It's like neener neener neener... YOU did it too..
 
Not George Bush Senior was it? I thought it was George Bush the second that was accused of torture. Accused but never held to the charges. If what we hear in the US, it was only three persons, all still here on earth. At that time the water board was considered OK in the US. With Obama he declared it to be wrong. Hard to hang someone doing what was considered OK at the time.
 
QuickSilver said:
Geez Debby.. can you never debate Russia and Putin WITHOUT slamming the USA It's like neener neener neener... YOU did it too..
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Well, seeing as how America is involved everywhere and for decades past, your own government has made that very difficult to do QS. And if you equate relaying FACTS with slamming, then that's your problem isn't it. And as I've told you repeatedly, I am completely aware of my own countries failings as they have occurred and am willing to 'own them' and discuss them.

When your government begins to behave and learns to cooperate, they will remove fodder for discussions of this sort. Really, it's up to them.
 
BobF said:
Not George Bush Senior was it? I thought it was George Bush the second that was accused of torture. Accused but never held to the charges. If what we hear in the US, it was only three persons, all still here on earth. At that time the water board was considered OK in the US. With Obama he declared it to be wrong. Hard to hang someone doing what was considered OK at the time.
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Maybe you didn't see the reason I brought Bush into the discussion? I never said GB senior ordered torture (although the CIA was probably doing it then too). I simply pointed out to Laurie that using the 'Putin was KGB' is a non-starter as an argument for his so-called 'monstrousness', because GB was head of the CIA at one point in his career. AND that Putin wasn't even a Director as was Bush.

Again, look at the history of Putin, what HE has done and said and how HE has behaved in the face of continual aggression and accusations.

And if your last line were to be fairly applied, then it seems that you'd all have to quit levelling accusations against Putin for his time in the KGB. KGB=CIA
 
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Disagree. KGB does not equal to CIA. As far as I know the KGB was very fierce and would damage folks while arresting them and further damage in the holding places. Not the same for the CIA as far as I know. From what we heard in the US was that certain uncooperative persons would be sent somewhere in Europe or middle east for a period. When they wanted to come back to the US, or Canada, it was understood they were willing to reveal. As was visible to the citizens of the US was that all activities were pre approved before enacting. Right or wrong depends on who is reading the events.
 
Debby said:
Well, seeing as how America is involved everywhere and for decades past, your own government has made that very difficult to do QS. And if you equate relaying FACTS with slamming, then that's your problem isn't it. And as I've told you repeatedly, I am completely aware of my own countries failings as they have occurred and am willing to 'own them' and discuss them.

When your government begins to behave and learns to cooperate, they will remove fodder for discussions of this sort. Really, it's up to them.
Click to expand...


What did bringing up the Bush was in the CIA have to do with anything? You just love to do that... That's ok Debby... I know your feelings about my country. So does everyone here..
 
When is torture ever the right thing to do? Besides the obvious inhumanity, it is not reliable source of obtaining information. Just because some individuals in a country endorse it's use, does not make it acceptable.
 
BobF said:
Disagree. KGB does not equal to CIA. As far as I know the KGB was very fierce and would damage folks while arresting them and further damage in the holding places. Not the same for the CIA as far as I know. From what we heard in the US was that certain uncooperative persons would be sent somewhere in Europe or middle east for a period. When they wanted to come back to the US, or Canada, it was understood they were willing to reveal. As was visible to the citizens of the US was that all activities were pre approved before enacting. Right or wrong depends on who is reading the events.
Click to expand...


Well, you have a right to your own opinion but my understanding of the CIA is that where they didn't directly 'attack' American citizens, their 'mercies' in other countries weren't tender by any means. Perhaps the main difference is their actions to change governments and frequently at the cost of the civilians of other nations.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/5348804

'....The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder.......This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious “School of the Americas.” (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the “School of the Dictators” and “School of the Assassins.” Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that by 1987, 6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations. (2) Former State Department official William Blum correctly calls this an “American Holocaust.”.....'

So does training someone to use the same tactics as used by the KGB not equate in your book? That is what the world knows of your CIA and it's not so different in my opinion. Lot of pot calling the kettle black.

What's more, the KGB was Soviet Union and we're discussing Russia and they are two different governments.
 
QuickSilver said:
What did bringing up the Bush was in the CIA have to do with anything? You just love to do that... That's ok Debby... I know your feelings about my country. So does everyone here..
Click to expand...



Well when 'your' side ceases bringing up Putins time in the KGB (as a paper-pusher and someone who brings in informants) as being indicative of his being a monster today, I'll quit bringing up Bush senior's time as the Director of the CIA.

And QS, I've had the opportunity to meet lots of nice folks in the US and my husband even counts a few as close friends having travelled by motorcycle with a group of Americans throughout the North West and the mid-west area. My beef is only and always with your government and the things that your government has done in it's obvious push to control and have influence over other governments, and what it does all over the world in what many in the world are calling American Imperialism.

I'm also fully cognizant of the multitude of great things that have come out of the US and how much the world owes brilliant Americans for their inventions and discoveries. So you would be entirely wrong in suggesting that my feelings are entirely negative, but I refuse to call evil good and good evil. Doesn't matter what side of the border you're on.
 
You know what all you American friends here...I understand exactly how you feel when I say these things, anger, hurt, embarrassment....when I found out my government was involved in the overthrow of the elected President of Haiti in 2004, I felt all those things too and I was glad that I discovered it through my own research and didn't have to endure having someone 'throw' it at me. It gave me time to come to grips with the realization that the 'government' that I'd sort of grown up with wasn't at all as good as I'd always thought it was. It was a sensation like eating most of the way through a good meal only to realize that there's a dead mouse at the bottom of the bowl. I get it.

But I've also found that there's something very freeing about accepting that that's what happened but it can be changed, maybe. In this day and age of growing climate concern, we HAD a Prime Minister who slashed our environmental protections, muzzled our federal climate scientists and then I think, simply got rid of lots of them and felt cocky enough to tell your country, 'I won't take no for an answer', on the Keystone pipeline. I can still be patriotic and love my country even while I say, that guy was all wrong, the way Canada was going is wrong and push for change vying communicating and voting.

So really, I'm not out to make anybody feel bad for the sake of feeling bad. But nothing changes if you don't talk about it. And I'd like to imagine a world that maybe in 75 years when our grandkids are sitting with grandkids at their knees, they might just be living in a world that has figured out all the 'stuff' we're going through now and learned how to do better. And only discussion has a hope of bringing that about.


Also, sorry about the triple post (that's really not acceptable I know, but I thought someone else would have posted something in the time I was writing mine) and I just hit send before I checked. Sorry, I'll be quiet now :(
 
And things not mentioned are the many things the US does outside the UN. We get it done faster, more completely, more directly, than the UN has ever managed to do.

Even been some talked here about abandoning the UN and have a real friendly group arranged that was not tied up to only a few ideas. Those thoughts do come up and then get forgotten but come back again.

You seem to think we are way too aggressive? Doesn't make sense at all. The US was not into world advantages much till after WWII and we stayed in Europe since. By request for many of those countries. We stayed with France, UK, China, Russia. Now China is a modified, capitalistic type, of Communism. Russia has apparently given up on Communism and gone into some form of socialism. Today, under Obama, we have pretty much given up on any military efforts for the UN or ourselves. Mostly just occasionally a driven robot that watches folks and occasionally drops a bomb or two. I hope our next President is a bit more active in how the rest of the world operates, together, if possible.

Right now Canada should be pretty proud of the US next door. If we were not here watching your border there is little left in Canada to stop some one from invading and taking over. We are trying to stop this invasion from the south, people from all over the world coming through, but our current government is not working hard at stopping any of it. More in the idea of IF they come through the border patrol will catch them miles away in the cities and towns. Many we do and many we don't. The border patrol should be on the border and stopping all these illegal invasions from happening. This is where Canada gets its few that sneak in and then move to a Canadian border point.
 
The definition of a delusion is a fixed and false belief.

Immigration across our Southern border is now NET NEGATIVE.. In other words.. More Hispanics are leaving the US than are entering..

http://www.rttnews.com/2583178/mexi...mmigration-into-u-s-turns-negative-study.aspx


More Mexicans are now found leaving the U.S. than having migrated here since the end of the Great Recession, according to the findings of a study published Thursday.
A new Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from both countries showed that the desire to reunite with families was the main reason behind the trend. The sluggish U.S. economic recovery and tougher border enforcement are the other key factors.




The study also showed that the overall flow of Mexican immigrants between the two countries is at its smallest since the 1990s, mostly due to a drop in the number of Mexican immigrants.
 

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