I am an Atheist and always have been.

Messy said:
Reminds me of what a preacher once said.


In the early 1950’s the notorious gangster Mickey Cohen attended a meeting where Billy Graham spoke. He expressed some interest, so several, including Graham and J. Edwin Orr, spoke personally with him about Christ, but he made no commitment. But later another Christian man shared the gospel with Cohen and urged him, based on Revelation 3:20, to invite Jesus into his heart. Cohen prayed with this man to receive Christ.

Cohen later attended a Billy Graham crusade, but his life after this showed no signs of change. He distanced himself from the man who had shared the gospel with him and began to hang around with his underworld cronies again. When the Christian tried to help him, Cohen complained, “You didn’t tell me that I would have to give up my work [being a gangster]! You didn’t tell me that I would have to give up my friends [other criminals]!” He had heard that there were Christian movie stars, Christian athletes, and Christian businessmen. He assumed that he could be a Christian gangster!
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There are an awful lot of people who don't display christian values whilst claiming a relationship with God. This can easily be highlighted today. It is very very clear that the primary driver of things isn't faith in a God, but is instead a grab for money and influence.

In religious terms, you can apparently you can be forgiven for anything. That includes even the most heinous acts. As long as someone is sincere, and belief is there, forgiveness is given. This seems like a "get out of jail free" card to me. Yes, the faith has to be sincere, but then that's not our decision to make, instead it's some being somewhere else. But forgiveness of the individual won't undo the horrors they may have committed. It won't compensate those who suffered through horrendous acts. It doesn't return stolen wealth, nor empty the pockets of the thieves.

I admit, I hold on to a different point of view that means there are certainly acts you can do that remove you from consideration of any kind of humanity.
 
VaughanJB said:
There are an awful lot of people who don't display christian values whilst claiming a relationship with God. This can easily be highlighted today. It is very very clear that the primary driver of things isn't faith in a God, but is instead a grab for money and influence.

In religious terms, you can apparently you can be forgiven for anything. That includes even the most heinous acts. As long as someone is sincere, and belief is there, forgiveness is given. This seems like a "get out of jail free" card to me. Yes, the faith has to be sincere, but then that's not our decision to make, instead it's some being somewhere else. But forgiveness of the individual won't undo the horrors they may have committed. It won't compensate those who suffered through horrendous acts. It doesn't return stolen wealth, nor empty the pockets of the thieves.

I admit, I hold on to a different point of view that means there are certainly acts you can do that remove you from consideration of any kind of humanity.
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If they genuinely convert I'm glad for them. There's a ministry for criminals, murderers in prison. Great. But I don't think everyone can just say oops sorry and it's fine. Hitler, some say God is unjust, because he could have said sorry on his death bed and went to heaven. That's impossible.
 
Messy said:
If they genuinely convert I'm glad for them. There's a ministry for criminals, murderers in prison. Great. But I don't think everyone can just say oops sorry and it's fine. Hitler, some say God is unjust, because he could have said sorry on his death bed and went to heaven. That's impossible.
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As I stressed, conversion has to be sincere. However, I can't accept that. To use the ridiculous example of Hitler: Hitler may have been awfully sorry for what he'd helped bring about, he might have closed his eyes for the last time fully believing in God, giving over his heart and soul. But what, exactly, would it have meant? Would millions have not died in horrible ways? Would Europe not be turn asunder? Would people not be turning against other people?

I can't think of a scenario, no matter how devout he'd become, that would allow for forgiveness on that scale.
 
VaughanJB said:
Religion is too often used as a weapon, whether it be to demean an idea, or an entire people. It is too often used as an excuse to hate on others. It is used as justification for all kinds of heinous acts. And yes, that extends to the Bible. The Old Testament is a litany of horrendous actions in the name of a God (but tends to get brushed under the carpet because hey, there was a do-over with a new covenant.) ...
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.. and so it is wherever Power rears its head and swings its deadly arms. I know where that power is today and it is not in religion. Sir.
 
Gardenlover said:
Until it isn't - do not despair my friend, the final chapter hasn't been written yet.
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Jose' Arguelles wrote, The Mayan Factor and of the transformation we are going through at this time and Carl Jung also wrote of the transformation. Both agree about the economic collapse. It would be great if others know of these men and we could discuss them and their very different points of view that come to the same conclusion of economic collapse.
 
rbtvgo said:
Vida is angry, upset and at wits end. I wish there was one sentence. one word that could reach her. She is one of us so think carefully about how you respond.
God is in charge. Nothing that takes place is beyond His understanding. you may not understand and I can assure you that I do not understand either. But I rest in the fact that He does.
It's not politics or religion. It is simply a matter of dealing with the concerns of your life with him or without him. That's it!
For others that find this thread boring or ridiculous.....leave. No one is keeping you here. If you are interested, as I am because of the responses and comments, then stick around. I don't have the answers. I don't. know what the facts are. I do know that I struggle with the same questions as expressed here. I do know that I believe in Gods existence in my life. I do know that I can not understand him and what he doe and what he allows to happen. Yet I trust that he does. .
Faith? I suppose, but it gives me comfort.
In all my years I find that God has watched over me.
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I am shocked that someone in this forum would be so offensive. I stopped reading at the first sentence. You might want to keep in mind, what you see in others is a reflection of yourself.
 
Vida May said:
Jose' Arguelles wrote, The Mayan Factor and of the transformation we are going through at this time and Carl Jung also wrote of the transformation. Both agree about the economic collapse. It would be great if others know of these men and we could discuss them and their very different points of view that come to the same conclusion of economic collapse.
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All economies will collapse, there is no stability, nothing on earth is forever including the ground you stand upon.
But there are often men with something to say.
 
Thanks fellows. I wasn't sure if I lacked self awareness. I thought I felt bad about saying things to a Christian that might cause a Christian to doubt his/her beliefs. I have mixed feelings about that. It would be a huge lose for them if they began to doubt what they believe but being ignorant of others and believing one's self to be better then "them", follows a negitive path that could be harmful.

On the other hand if they saw Hindus, Buddhist and others also have 10 commandments, and do even more to be moral and spiritually uplifted, than they might give up their false beliefs about those others and walk a path that is healthier for everyone.

I enjoy the subject of morality so much, I started a thread for that.
 
Vida May said:
Jose' Arguelles wrote, The Mayan Factor and of the transformation we are going through at this time and Carl Jung also wrote of the transformation. Both agree about the economic collapse. It would be great if others know of these men and we could discuss them and their very different points of view that come to the same conclusion of economic collapse.
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The Bible says that too.

“A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius
Revelation 6:6

A denarius was a standard day’s wage, while a quart of wheat was only enough food for one person per day, meaning basic staples become extremely expensive, demanding a full day's work just to survive
 
Vida May said:
Jose' Arguelles wrote, The Mayan Factor and of the transformation we are going through at this time and Carl Jung also wrote of the transformation. Both agree about the economic collapse. It would be great if others know of these men and we could discuss them and their very different points of view that come to the same conclusion of economic collapse.
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Not so sure about the Mayan factor, but Jung certainly articulated things I think are important to remember.

The US is a world leader today through it's power and influence, but it would be a mistake to forget that the world of people has been through similar periods of time, and they always came to an end. The US will lose influence and power (some are arguing that is starting in earnest right now) over time as we change, evolve, and priorities are rewritten.

I do think that it seems inherent in all of us to ask the big question: Why am I here? We can never really have a definitive answer. There are many ideas. What sometimes surprises me is that religious people (some of them, not all!) have a view that heaven is a special place where wars aren't fought, there is peace, love, caring... whilst writing off actual life as a chore to get through. For me, heaven can be here and now. It doesn't get any better than this - which is why we make the most of it.
 
VaughanJB said:
Not so sure about the Mayan factor, but Jung certainly articulated things I think are important to remember.

The US is a world leader today through it's power and influence, but it would be a mistake to forget that the world of people has been through similar periods of time, and they always came to an end. The US will lose influence and power (some are arguing that is starting in earnest right now) over time as we change, evolve, and priorities are rewritten.

I do think that it seems inherent in all of us to ask the big question: Why am I here? We can never really have a definitive answer. There are many ideas. What sometimes surprises me is that religious people (some of them, not all!) have a view that heaven is a special place where wars aren't fought, there is peace, love, caring... whilst writing off actual life as a chore to get through. For me, heaven can be here and now. It doesn't get any better than this - which is why we make the most of it.
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Heaven can't be here and now. For me sure, my small place were I live in a neat rich country that's not in war, is heavenly. But elsewhere people live in hell on earth.
 
VaughanJB said:
Excellent post, VM.

Religion is too often used as a weapon, whether it be to demean an idea, or an entire people. It is too often used as an excuse to hate on others. It is used as justification for all kinds of heinous acts. And yes, that extends to the Bible. The Old Testament is a litany of horrendous actions in the name of a God (but tends to get brushed under the carpet because hey, there was a do-over with a new covenant.)

When I look at the leaders in the US - and I'm talking business leaders not simply political ones - it is laughable to consider them Christian. IMO YMMV. Parts of the US are Christian in life and action, but more or it isn't, even if they want to wear religion as a blanket.

Perhaps unlike you, I do not believe democracy needs a God. But it does need morality, ethics, and honesty.
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Philosophically, I do believe God is necessary, but this is an unknown God because this God is beyond our comprehension. It is not a humanized god and we can't have a god more humanized that Jesus.
To me and others that is so wrong, and Christianity has a bloody history because of disagreements between them.

Back to philosophy, this god (logos) that is beyond our comprehension expands our consciousness and brings out the best in us as we then think about morality and what is divine and what is spiritual. What is the best we can be, as individuals and as a democracy? We need a boarder perceptive and our god needs to be beyond our comprehension, not a human who was divine and has a personal relationship with us and only us! This god does not exclude Chinese or Hindus or Arabs and is not going to have dinner with us.

Oh, oh Greeks wrote the first Bible, and Christianity is Judaism plus Hellenism. Jesus is logos, a Greek concept meaning reason, the controlling force of the universe. Democracy is an imitation of the gods. Democracy means rule by reason. You know, Democracy prevents tyranny. Moral means to know cause and effect and this thinking leads to science and Democracy that is rule by reason.

I am sad at the moment because I am sure to most people what I am saying is not common, Christian shaped patterns of thought. Without a board, generalist back ground of thought, there is too much that is unknown for what I am saying to make since.
 
Vida May said:
Philosophically, I do believe God is necessary, but this is an unknown God because this God is beyond our comprehension. It is not a humanized god and we can't have a god more humanized that Jesus.
To me and others that is so wrong, and Christianity has a bloody history because of disagreements between them.

Back to philosophy, this god (logos) that is beyond our comprehension expands our consciousness and brings out the best in us as we then think about morality and what is divine and what is spiritual. What is the best we can be, as individuals and as a democracy? We need a boarder perceptive and our god needs to be beyond our comprehension, not a human who was divine and has a personal relationship with us and only us! This god does not exclude Chinese or Hindus or Arabs and is not going to have dinner with us.

Oh, oh Greeks wrote the first Bible, and Christianity is Judaism plus Hellenism. Jesus is logos, a Greek concept meaning reason, the controlling force of the universe. Democracy is an imitation of the gods. Democracy means rule by reason. You know, Democracy prevents tyranny. Moral means to know cause and effect and this thinking leads to science and Democracy that is rule by reason.

I am sad at the moment because I am sure to most people what I am saying is not common, Christian shaped patterns of thought. Without a board, generalist back ground of thought, there is too much that is unknown for what I am saying to make since.
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Show me who Jesus and His disciples were killing. I don't care what His followers do. People in church were asses to me. That's no reason to dump God.
Does this superior god also not exclude people like Hitler?
 
Vida May said:
Philosophically, I do believe God is necessary, but this is an unknown God because this God is beyond our comprehension. It is not a humanized god and we can't have a god more humanized that Jesus.
To me and others that is so wrong, and Christianity has a bloody history because of disagreements between them.

Back to philosophy, this god (logos) that is beyond our comprehension expands our consciousness and brings out the best in us as we then think about morality and what is divine and what is spiritual. What is the best we can be, as individuals and as a democracy? We need a boarder perceptive and our god needs to be beyond our comprehension, not a human who was divine and has a personal relationship with us and only us! This god does not exclude Chinese or Hindus or Arabs and is not going to have dinner with us.

Oh, oh Greeks wrote the first Bible, and Christianity is Judaism plus Hellenism. Jesus is logos, a Greek concept meaning reason, the controlling force of the universe. Democracy is an imitation of the gods. Democracy means rule by reason. You know, Democracy prevents tyranny. Moral means to know cause and effect and this thinking leads to science and Democracy that is rule by reason.

I am sad at the moment because I am sure to most people what I am saying is not common, Christian shaped patterns of thought. Without a board, generalist back ground of thought, there is too much that is unknown for what I am saying to make since.
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So our views differ. I don't believe in any God. I believe we are here through a series of events and are simply another possible biological outcome. We have highly evolved minds, and that leads us to that big question. I think one day man will stumble upon another sentient outcome and will therefore discover we're not alone in the universe.

And if only democracy truly prevented tyranny. I think we have first hand evidence that it's not the case in recent times. I think for democracy to work you need candidates of extreme integrity - and there's just none to be found. We haven't had an honest democratic election in the my life time. There are many reasons for that, but they center around being self-serving, money, and power.
 
VaughanJB said:
Not so sure about the Mayan factor, but Jung certainly articulated things I think are important to remember.

The US is a world leader today through it's power and influence, but it would be a mistake to forget that the world of people has been through similar periods of time, and they always came to an end. The US will lose influence and power (some are arguing that is starting in earnest right now) over time as we change, evolve, and priorities are rewritten.

I do think that it seems inherent in all of us to ask the big question: Why am I here? We can never really have a definitive answer. There are many ideas. What sometimes surprises me is that religious people (some of them, not all!) have a view that heaven is a special place where wars aren't fought, there is peace, love, caring... whilst writing off actual life as a chore to get through. For me, heaven can be here and now. It doesn't get any better than this - which is why we make the most of it.
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Jung would have us believe in reincarnation, and he speaks of what seems to be purgatory for those who neglected the work of spiritual growth. He and the Mayan Factor speak of spiritual things that seem pretty strange. But what the heck. I am too old to have earthly goals, so I might as well join the over-60 crowd who are curious about what happens after death and whether I can gain wisdom and earn gold stars for my spiritual growth. 😃

I think it is a good purpose to manifest heaven on earth. I think it can be better and would argue that never in the history of humanity has so much information been available to everyone. I think it is possible that we are in the Resurrection. Archaeologists, geologists, and related sciences are resurrecting the history of our planet. It is our duty right now to learn as much as we can learn and to rethink everything! And if reincarnation is so, then the huge population on the earth today is the resurrection of all souls.

The whole planet is in a period of transition, and this could bring us to a New Age. What is new is all the knowledge we can have. It wasn't that long ago when doctors knew nothing of bacteria and viruses. Come on, give us a break. Until the 21st century, we were comparatively very ignorant, and now it is obvious there is so much to know, that we should understand the importance of democracy is no one can do it all! We must work together. Please,🥹 in 1600 a king might have known enough to run a kingdom. That just is not so today. Life is too complex today for kings and tyrants.

The New Age is a time of high tech, peace, and the end of tyranny. People's consciousness will be so different that they will not be able to relate to our present and past consciousness. Like can you imagine living without toilet paper? How might that change life? 😄 And no microwave ovens and supermarkets. I thought we were doing good when we had hot and cold water coming from our walls, and stars lighting our rooms, and tiny people living in a large box and music coming out of another box. This is not my great-grandparents' reality. Our consciousness is changing as our technology and science change. Before bombing a country off the face of the earth, maybe we should know them a little better and possibly relate to them as human beings.
 
I see only worse things for the future. I see us becoming not more enlightened due to technology, but increasingly controlled by it. I believe, as a species, that we have allowed ourselves to fall into a trap where otherworldly concepts take precedence over our more worthy human traits/concerns. Our intellect has caused us to separate from our true being. We think too much, care too little, and have yet to arrest our base desire for survival at all costs.

We are entering a new world, but first we are setting out to destroy much of what had come to be. Nations are pulling apart, politicians no longer feel responsible for the entire populace, participation in elections is shown casual disregard. We are rejecting intellect, knowledge, and learning for feel-good moments of imagined superiority and ego boosts. We don't believe in AI, algorithms, and the media while at the same time being completely controlled by them.

We're not looking at mankind and wanting to move forward, we want to barricade ourselves behind virtual walls. We want to live in silo's of opinion. We want to be mollycoddled by other, nameless, "experts". We know we can be fooled, yet we don't believe we ever are. We have thrown out the idea that opposing views can be food for consensus and have instead substituted hate in its place. We have access to an internet that covers the entire globe, and beyond it, yet we allow ourselves to harbor petty grievances on discussion forums.

Sitting here right now, I can see a future. But it's going to controlled not by governments, but by corporations. We are already a long way there, lobbying and paid campaigning is rife. But it will get worse as corporations master the tools of communication and utility. Governments will be powerless to do anything about it. National borders will be/are meaningless. There will always be the poor, but there will be fewer rich. We are running toward replacing humans in thought, work, and entertainment - without a single thought being given to what those then disenfranchised people will do with themselves.

Fortunately, I'll have been long gone by the time the worst of it hits.
 
Vida May said:
😄 We are not arguing whether there is or is not a God because I do not have a defined God. We are arguing about the correctness or error of using the word "God". Using philosophy instead of religion is a different lens for consciousness.
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There is no God, therefore using the word "God" is incorrect (I am using the dictionary definition of the word "God"). ;)

Critical thinking is always needed, but as soon as it makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, they run back to what they know.
 
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