JFK the smoking gun

"Love it because it's yours and you belong to it," I do, in spite of it all, I do because It is mine and I am It's .
 

Diwundrin said:
That was never the intention or even my opinion Jackie. My view of the Kennedy thing from here was the opposite of how Warri and other saw it, so I realise that America has as many viewpoints as it has people too. We don't all think the same, and we don't all get it right. But there are a lot of shades of right and wrong in opinions anyway and a lot of different reasons to think we have nailed it, so who gets to judge?

Unfortunately we don't often hear from the people we should hear from, the World's view is formed from they see on TV these days more than ever, but even back in the 60's. We can't know the background to every decision made nor how many actually agree with those decisions. All the indication of what the people of a Nation is thinking that we have is what we see portrayed by the leaders they elect and by the traditions they value most. .. and now, the internet which is the greatest window of all.

Try a quick test. Think of a country and look at what instant 'mind picture' the name of it conjures up. Is that picture entirely true of how that country really thinks and is?

I admit that my picture of the word China is of a China that hasn't existed for a century. I picture Australia as a gum tree in a desert with roos under it, and Egypt as a Pyramid in the moonlight, England as a snapshot of the guards at Buck Palace, Italy as a Roman ruin in Tuscany, I picture the US as a brass band parade with spangles and flags. (sorry )

We only form National pictures from what we see as symbolic of the Nation. The impression we got of the old America was only what we saw in movies, and what we heard of how it operated politically was gleaned from what the media chose to tell us. The more media we watched, or 50 years ago, the more different journalists we read, the more details and insight we got.

It was harder work back then and most just settled for the pretty wrapping and didn't look at the whole package. I didn't see the whole thing either, it was more an instinct than knowledge that put me off him. As time went on and things got ramped up to boiling point I got more and more convinced that something was up with his diplomacy skills and it made me very nervous.

My view of the Kennedys is a view from 50 years ago, formed from the available information,of 50 years ago.
I can't change how I processed that information back then. It is done and dusted and that decision was relevant to me at the time. It has no bearing on how I view things now. It was asked why I didn't see JFK as the shining light most did, I answered why by explaining the various bits and pieces of info I had access to and how they formed a mind picture of it all. Maybe I had different pieces to others and my picture wasn't as pretty. But it's a 50 year old picture now. The pieces have changed, and the Kennedys are long gone.

What was relevant then isn't now. The US is different now in many ways, and so are we.
I honestly don't give a toss either way about Obama, I don't know or care to research enough to form an opinion. I leave that to you who elected him. You don't need to care a tuppenny about what makes our less than illustrious leaders tick either.
Unless they decide to take on China and ask you to join us. That would no doubt peak your interest right?

JFK and the Camelot thing was rammed down our throats, nothing anywhere near as interesting as the Cuban missile crisis was going on and the media was flooded with it. We saw more of him than we saw of our own leading lights. We had to take notice of what he was up to, and I added 2 + 2 and kept coming up with 5. Something just didn't gel with me. I'm sorry that I can't placate his fans by suddenly seeing him differently but whether my summation was right or wrong about his motives doesn't matter does it? It's hardly an attack on the whole population, I hadn't even met more than one or two Americans back then.

As to anyone taking offence at my misconception of your country 50 years ago, how do think we feel knowing that some Americans still think there's nothing here but crocodiles and kangaroos and we're a pack of rubes living in bark huts?

How offended would you be if an Australian was amazed to learn that you actually had cities over there?
Would you be offended to learn that they also thought you were a still a British colony with no government of your own at all and the Queen ruled us directly? Well, it wasn't 50 years ago that I've heard exactly that about us from American tourists.
Talk about an offensively outdated and warped 'view' eh? But I wasn't offended, I have to admit i was pretty damned amused that they were so clueless about anything outside of their own Country. I felt free to 'educate' them.
They were in the minority though, I know too well most are not like that at all. ... and in case you're embarrassed about them, how do you think we feel about our own Australian tourists who behave like drunken louts and the impression that leaves of all of us in the minds of other Nations? No wonder Asians, particularly in Bali, see us as 'white trash.'

Anyway, there's no reason to get offended if I get some things wrong, explain nicely why they're wrong and how things are different to what I envisage. Feel free to 'educate' me.
Of course you'll be 50 years too late to sort me out about Kennedy though.

Well I'm rambled out for the day, night all.
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Good Morning Di, I think we all tend to bristle when we hear criticism of our country, after all home is home and where the heart is and all that jazz and we've all had misconceptions at one time or other I certainly have, the only way we can grow as a country or as an individual is to recognize that they are just that...misconceptions. I agree that the opinions of our country and leaders are formed from the output of the media. We have a really BIG problem with that here, but I think people are realizing more and more that this output is coming directly from the owners of the media or other big money to further their agenda, regulations on the media were cut way back a few years ago and what we have now is the results.

Again, I'm not offended and I hope I haven't offended...certainly don't mean to offend. I appreciate your thoughts...you have a very insightful way of writing to express your view, something that I lack.
 
Awww, that's nice, when everyone plays so well together!

Now ... about that Lincoln guy ... I heard it was actually his old hardware store clerk that shot him, and it was actually done by a steam-powered remote control pistol ... :playful:
 

There's another something (documentary or movie) on television showing something about JFK, this coming Sunday night. Has anyone seen anything on this?
 
Oh yes, I have it set to tape via DVR in case I'm not home. It's going to be a biggie and I can't wait to see it. It will be on Nat'l Geographic Channel at 8 or 9, can't remember, but check your listings. Should be a good one!
 
Katybug said:
Oh yes, I have it set to tape via DVR in case I'm not home. It's going to be a biggie and I can't wait to see it. It will be on Nat'l Geographic Channel at 8 or 9, can't remember, but check your listings. Should be a good one!
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Thanks, for the heads up here, I'll watch it.
 
They're having a bit of a Kennedy fest here too for the anniversary, running a different doco every Sunday for weeks. Last night's was one called 'Jackie without Jack' and it really did them no favours.

Don't know who produced it but it focused on the interviews Jackie did with some journo after the assassination, and how she was dishing dirt on foreign leaders, boosting her own input into decisions she had nothing to do with, and glossing over their less than real Camelot marriage etc. Avowing her undying love for Jack which didn't stop her marrying Onassis, whom she knew well before JFK was out of the picture.
It painted her as more intent on cementing herself, through JFK, in history as more than they ever really were, than anything approaching the truth. She wanted the Camelot myth to continue possibly to ensure advantage for her kids, which I suppose is fair enough. Shame that didn't pan out well for her either.

It mentioned too how addicted JFK was to various painkillers and was effectively a junkie. I remember reading about that so it must have been reported in the press somewhere here at the 'missile crisis' time, which is another reason I considered him dangerous.

It was a very cynical doco. You'd almost think I wrote it.

Don't watch that one if you wanna hold onto the dream.
 
SifuPhil said:
Now ... about that Lincoln guy ... I heard it was actually his old hardware store clerk that shot him, and it was actually done by a steam-powered remote control pistol ... :playful:
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Between watching too many Kennedy documentaries, my awful morning and all these heartwarming war photos, I was in a funk! I went looking for ya and found it -- a post to make me laugh! Thanks, buddy.
 
Diwundrin said:
They're having a bit of a Kennedy fest here too for the anniversary, running a different doco every Sunday for weeks. Last night's was one called 'Jackie without Jack' and it really did them no favours.

Don't know who produced it but it focused on the interviews Jackie did with some journo after the assassination, and how she was dishing dirt on foreign leaders, boosting her own input into decisions she had nothing to do with, and glossing over their less than real Camelot marriage etc. Avowing her undying love for Jack which didn't stop her marrying Onassis, whom she knew well before JFK was out of the picture.
It painted her as more intent on cementing herself, through JFK, in history as more than they ever really were, than anything approaching the truth. She wanted the Camelot myth to continue possibly to ensure advantage for her kids, which I suppose is fair enough. Shame that didn't pan out well for her either.

It mentioned too how addicted JFK was to various painkillers and was effectively a junkie. I remember reading about that so it must have been reported in the press somewhere here at the 'missile crisis' time, which is another reason I considered him dangerous.

It was a very cynical doco. You'd almost think I wrote it.

Don't watch that one if you wanna hold onto the dream.
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Thanks for the heads up, DI, because I would have tuned it in. I can promise it would have been switched in no time. This man and his family is one of whom the majority of Americans adored and idolized, and their deaths, including John, Jr., martyred them even more so. As for me, it's a bit like it being a member of your family....(and I am gonna say it like I heard it,) "They may be a bit of a POS, but they're your POS," and you don't want to hear anything negatively said about them... whether or not it's true. Harsh analogy, as the Kennedys were hardly that, but you get my point.

When you're on a forum, that's entirely different than having a remote in your hand. People are free to say whatever they feel and be proud to share their opinions. (How did ya like that CMA on our previous conversations? :)) LOL and have a good day, Di.
 
"None so blind as those who will not see" eh Katy ? Don't blame you, sometimes we need the fantasy to make life bearable and cover up the warts on our heroes. I must be a masochist, I prefer to know about and accept the warts as part of the picture, but most don't. No harm done in that I guess as long as the dreams aren't shattered too harshly.
 
I heard that Woodrow Wilson was gay, bi-polar and liked to dress up as Fanny Brice on the weekends ...

Now Katy, you can't get mad at me this time - I'm not talking about JFK and his penchant for drowning puppies ...
 
Diwundrin said:
"None so blind as those who will not see" eh Katy ?

Oh, Di, my dear, I see it and have for decades. Tho I have always maintained I want to know what's going on, it's not particularly comfortable hearing about the damned warts of those I admire the very most. I listen, give it some thought, then carry on and here is where I became shortsighted....there is absolutely nothing that anyone could say that would change my lifelong admiration of that family. And through the years I have had to make some pretty darned big allowances in acknowledging larger and then much larger warts. It's very painful!!! But I'm forced to accept these as they were first of all human beings and guilty of human traits that weren't so admirable, but were proven as fact. I think they're all out there at this point -- the gawdawful and the good, such as they were, and I'm now at a place I can comfortably put all of them to bed.

It's been a great run, as I've loved hearing the opinions of a very brilliant lady from Oz and I highly envy your spunk in calling it exactly as you see it!

This will be my last post on the Kennedys, and I know our other sick-to-death-of-it members are going..."thank goodness!!!!" I've loved sharing opinions with you all the way through. You're an outstanding debater and I can't believe I took you on under any circumstances. We've made our points here, m' lady, both you and I, and it's time to move on.

I'll be searching for another bed of hot issues and we'll go at fiercely, don't you know?!! LOL

Enjoy your week!
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Okay, this is a new one....he drowned puppies? After all these years, they've wisely left that out.....good thing! But you're saying that he did that, right? I am going to be heartsick if I find this to be true, but it's midnight and I turn into a pumpkin shortly.

Chat with you guys later.
 
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Katybug said:
Okay, this is a new one....he drowned puppies? After all these years, they've wisely and carefully left that out.....good thing! But you're saying that he did that, right? I am going to be heartsick if I find this to be true, but it's midnight and I turn into a pumpkin shortly.
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Oh, sure. They have photos. It was on some bridge near some place called Marty's Scrapyard or something like that - name of the town was Chappasticka, I think.

He got drunk on elderberry wine, put the puppies in paper sacks and tossed 'em into the water to see if they would float. If they did, he pronounced them innocent.

Chat with you guys later.
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Sweet dreams! :devilish:
 
I'm about JFK'd out the more Docos I watch the less the info makes sense. They all come in from some angle, some fanning the fantasy, some pushing the conspiracy theories, some continuing to decorate the cover-up, some just plain confused and many present different time lapses, ammunition, angles,sequence of shots etc as facts. They can't all be 'facts' if they're different.

The reason I like the 'Smoking Gun' one is that it has no axe to grind. It was an investigation done by a retired Australian detective. A very good one in his day. It was a 'hobby' that he chose to pursue when he retired.
It was produced by a partially Government funded, but independent public channel.
He used the evidence as it stood and examined the assassination as a crime scene.
The incident held no special meaning to him, he isn't American, it was just another murder to be solved.
He was disconnected from it's cultural meaning. He had no political agenda nor any connection to the US security games. He had no motivation to promote a defensive cover-up.
He had no interest in the shooting's motive, and by extension no interest in conspiracies.
He had no bias toward a 'preferred' outcome.
He treated no evidence as irrelevant because it didn't fit a pre-conceived assumption.
He took nothing at face value, including the 3 cartridge cases found in the Depository. On close examination he detected an anomaly that has never been mentioned in other docos I've seen.
One of the cartridges was damaged, slightly dented. It appeared 'old'. He surmised that it had been used as a 'plug slug' to keep dust out of the firing chamber rather than as a cast off from the shots fired. He posited that this was common among shooters but I'll take his word for that, not in a position to judge, never heard of it, but then why would it be a common topic?

It was found in a different position to the two ejected cartridges.
A doco the other night explained this by 'repositioning' Oswald between shots to account for it's position rather than accept that perhaps he really had only fired twice and the 3rd casing was an anomaly. They made no examination of the actual cases, just their positions. They even managed to extend the time between the 1st and 3rd shots to accommodate their explanation that Oswald had actually had time to move several feet and reposition himself for 2 more shots!

He addressed the 'autopsy'. Very few docos do. They gloss over the actual massive skull damage that was done. They also neglect to mention that the brain was not only removed but almost immediately 'vanished'. Had the rounds Oswald used hit where the final shot did it would have drilled through, it would not have exploded leaving particles throughout the skull and brain. Only a cursory mention was made of 'pelleting' before the evidence was whisked away. Only a hollow point could have done that damage, but Oswald's rounds weren't. That alone should be enough to merit a mention surely? It would in any doco that didn't primarily serve the purpose of promoting the legend rather than the truth.

The FBI acted illegally in removing the body and evidence from the Dallas hospital. It was done before more than a rudimentary examination could be done there. People there at the time attest they were threatened and overruled by the FBI agent in charge who simply went ahead with the removal in full knowledge of the illegality. Why? To remove evidence of their own accidental involvement?

I have no idea if this doco is the definitive answer, I just like it best. It makes the most logical and hyperbole free conclusions. I like that kinda thing in a doco, but to each his own.
 
Katybug said:
Okay, this is a new one....he drowned puppies? After all these years, they've wisely left that out.....good thing! But you're saying that he did that, right? I am going to be heartsick if I find this to be true, but it's midnight and I turn into a pumpkin shortly.

Chat with you guys later.
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Just Google "JFK puppy drowner"
 
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