Manchester

RadishRose said:
Another suspect is in custody, British-born, I haven't heard the name yet. I understand your point about "vetting " Don, but I don't think it should stop at this point in time.
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Yes, this "vetting" of refugees MUST be continued, and even expanded....But, if recent events are any indicator, the biggest threat is coming from "citizens" who have become radicalized. It appears that the British police have been watching this latest Terrorist, but apparently their present tactics were insufficient to stop him in time. If the events in Europe, in the past couple of years, are any indicator...the time to put some of this "political correctness" on the shelf, and beginning to make life difficult for those on these Watch lists is long overdue.
 

There are huge practical difficulties in keeping an eye on potential terrorists - sheer numbers. I just had the BBC radio news on and their 'security correspondent' made that point and added 'if the general public knew how many people ae out there who are a potential danger they would not sleep well at nights'.
 

WhatInThe said:
Actually US intelligence officials for leaking it to the media. The US treats crime and information different so I don't think officials or media thought twice about releasing or using the information. Doesn't make it right but it's 'accepted' in the US.
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It is amongst other things, about timing. The police have knocked on a good number of doors as a follow up. The damned leaks mean some of those who might have had something to worry about had time to ditch evidence or even move. It comes over as pretty dumb besides anything else.
 
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Wintermint said:
It is amongst other things, about timing. The police have knocked on a good number of doors as a follow up. The damned leaks mean some of those who might have had something to worry about had time to ditch evidence or even move. It comes over as pretty dumb besides anything else.
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I agree to a point but once the police have raided the suspect's home I think the neighbors have a pretty good idea why the police are there and if they are a conspirator they are probably well ahead of the reporting or know what to do once the police are there. I saw a photo with over 1/2 dozen police waiting single file on the building's side preparing for entry. I think anyone in the house or with in sight of the raid know what is going on.

Most police would also assume the suspect would try to get rid of evidence hence the control of information but they also know once a raid or arrest starts they will still try to dump evidence or think of a story until physically captured.
 
So what are you saying, that it is alright for the Americans to make leaks in the media, and then jeopardise the work of our security forces....why on earth do you think they were so angry about these leaks???
 
Leaks and the media or journalists right to deny who leaked the info need to be revisited.

IMO when it comes to leaks affecting national security of any country, the source should be found out.
 
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Bee said:
So what are you saying, that it is alright for the Americans to make leaks in the media, and then jeopardise the work of our security forces....why on earth do you think they were so angry about these leaks???
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Leaks are a problem in the US too but are "accepted" a little differently. But still a problem. Information should have been withheld until after the raid of the suspect's house at least. And the UK did the right thing cutting it off to make their point.

But leaks have been used for years to make information public because that's they only way information gets out in many instances. At times it's a fine line between controlling and/or withholding information period which is frowned upon. In the US the government withholding information is viewed poorly and with skepticism. This is why organizations like the New York Times gobbled the leak right up. Again it wasn't necessarily right and have been in trouble in the past themselves going back to the Pentagon Papers.

One would hope those possessing leaked information would know when to use it like a few days after things settled down and the preliminary on site in person investigation is over. But that's not the case. Maybe in the US the citizens and authorities are more used to things like crime, investigations, raids, chases etc.
 
I don't know what happens today but there was a time when the authorities would brief the press on sensitive matters with an embargo on publication. After the embargo was lifted the press was free to write the story in detail. The journalists did not need to winkle information out of leakers.

I have no idea what the agreements are between the various police and security organisations of different countries but this current situation needs to be examined. Otherwise the flow of important information will dry up for lack of trust.
 
Wintermint said:
Thanks for all the responses and kind words. A couple of follow-ups.
exwisehe: The terrorist blew himself up with the bomb. My only regret is that he isn't aware that he hasn't gone to paradise.

Camper6: The police have identified the bomber, though they haven't released his name. They have however said he was a British citizen. So not a case of 'importing'.
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Parents imports from Libya. Born in Manchester under the sign of Mohammed or something.

My point is Canada. So proud to be importing from the Middle East.

Sorry I don't trust their religion. Importing a problem.
 
The terrorist made multiple trips to and from Libya and Syria in recent years. I've noticed all of the "homegrown" terrorists have middle eastern names except Timothy McVeigh of the Oklahoma bombing. And they all have ties to to a terrorist group of one kind or another but all believe in jihad and in the name of allah.
 
Camper6 said:
Parents imports from Libya. Born in Manchester under the sign of Mohammed or something.

My point is Canada. So proud to be importing from the Middle East.

Sorry I don't trust their religion. Importing a problem.
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As a Canadian, I respectfully disagree. I work with Middle Eastern refugees on a regular basis. It is important to realise that heinous as this terrorist attack on Manchester was, as are all such attacks, the people who have

been the most often targeted by these extremists are other Muslims. If we allow these hideous events to steal our humanity, then Daesh/Isil has already won.
 
Shalimar said:
As a Canadian, I respectfully disagree. I work with Middle Eastern refugees on a regular basis. It is important to realise that heinous as this terrorist attack on Manchester was, as are all such attacks, the people who have been the most often targeted by these extremists are other Muslims. If we allow these hideous events to steal our humanity, then Daesh/Isil has already won.
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Targeting Muslims? Did you mean to say Christians? Jihad is all about killing those who don't believe in Allah and the Koran. What they really want is for Christians to declare war against them. It's really irritating them that that hasn't happened nor will it. Of course there's also those terrorists who are not particular about who they kill....just create terror and die a martyr's death as was the case in Manchester.
 
Lara said:
Targeting Muslims? Did you mean to say Christians? Jihad is all about killing those who don't believe in Allah and the Koran. What they really want is for Christians to declare war against them. It's really irritating them that that hasn't happened nor will it. Of course there's also those terrorists who are not particular about who they kill....just create terror and die a martyr's death as was the case in Manchester.
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Many of my clients are Muslim refugees escaping the horrors of war, some have lived under the dominion of Muslim extremists, many losing friends and family as a result. Others are Yazidi, oh what horrors they have lived through. By no means are Christians the only people targeted. I recall the Jordanian pilot burned alive by Isil. He was Muslim.
 
Lara said:
Jihad is all about killing those who don't believe in Allah and the Koran....Of course there's also those terrorists who are not particular about who they kill....just create terror and die a martyr's death as was the case in Manchester.
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Shalimar said:
By no means are Christians the only people targeted. I recall the Jordanian pilot burned alive by Isil. He was Muslim.
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But the pilot wasn't burned alive by ISIS because he was Muslim. The reason was because his plane crashed in their space, he was captured, and killed in order to to get media coverage. But Christians are being persecuted and killed for being Christians...and I mentioned that ISIS isn't always particular about who they kill as long as it creates terror and gets media coverage.
 
Bee said:
Thankyou to Knight and Don for understanding what I have been posting.
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I agree with you, Bee. If you share information with a friend expecting it to remain private, and then they blab it to the whole world, you stop sharing information with that friend. It's a betrayal of trust. If we can't get a handle on these leaks, nobody in the world is going to share anything with us.
 
Lara said:
But the pilot wasn't burned alive by ISIS because he was Muslim. The reason was because his plane crashed in their space, he was captured, and killed in order to to get media coverage. But Christians are being persecuted and killed for being Christians...and I mentioned that ISIS isn't always particular about who they kill as long as it creates terror and gets media coverage.
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I think we may always have a difference of perspective regarding this issue. No worries, have a lovely day.
 
Shalimar said:
As a Canadian, I respectfully disagree. I work with Middle Eastern refugees on a regular basis. It is important to realise that heinous as this terrorist attack on Manchester was, as are all such attacks, the people who have

been the most often targeted by these extremists are other Muslims. If we allow these hideous events to steal our humanity, then Daesh/Isil has already won.
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Shalimar: I don't agree with your statement that these extremists target Muslims. That's pretty obvious in Manchester.

We are allowing these hideous events to steal our humanity. That's the intent and it's working.

Look at the Boston Marathon bombing. Plots are foiled in Canada. It won't be long before they are not foiled.

The other thing I see is that the leaders of the Muslim community don't speak out enough condemning the attacks.

I guess they are afraid to because they will be attacked.
 
Lara takes the easy jingoistic view and is, as so often, dead wrong. ISIS is not about submitting to Islam. It is about submitting to ISIS or die. Their version of Islam is simply and extreme one - just as Christianity has in the past had its extreme zealots (think k of the Crusades). Nobody wants ISIS gone more than the average Muslim. Arounf 90% of all terrorist victims are Muslims.

I am no fan of Islam. It is an oppressive religion - probably more so than Christianity and its writings are anti all other religions. But facts are facts and the average Muslim is not interested in overthrowing the west. If you are going to pick on Muslims because most ISIS related terrorism is perpetrated by them, you might as well bar all males from entering your country - the majority of terrorists are after all male. It is the same crude approach.

According to a 2009 report published by the Counter Terrorism Center at the United States Military Academy at West Point, Al-Qaeda kills over seven times more Muslims than non-Muslims.

The UN reported last year that Muslims are the largest victims of ISIS in Iraq.

In 2013, the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism’s Global Terrorism Database – joint government-university program on terrorism, hosted at the University of Maryland noted that between 2004 and 2013, about half of all terrorist attacks, and 60% of fatalities due to terrorist attacks, took place in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan – all of which have a mostly Muslim population.

Your own government security organisations compile and accept such statistics.
 
Before you can have any hope of defeating your enemy, you must first study your enemy and do it with eyes wide open. False narratives will not help you to win.

I remember that our Australian soldiers were fed the propaganda that Japanese troops were poorly trained and physically inferior, and would thus be easily defeated. They weren't.

IMO al Qaeda and ISIS attack the west to stimulate recruitment in countries that they hope to over run. For the most part they are countries where there are a majority of Muslims such as Indonesia, Pakistan and various ME countries. They mostly use recruits from the west as disposable soldiers in the east.
 

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