Dear God, another school shooting?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Strongly agree. They are not being taught how to deal with anger, disappointment or frustration in a non-violent way.

I agree with Butterfly. We used to have something that taught how to
deal with disappointment, anger and frustration. It was called Little League Baseball. But some nut case came up with the idea of not keeping score so nobody ever felt hurt. (some parts of the country may still have old-style tiny tot baseball were kids learn that everything does not always go "your way".
 

Just coming in on the news. In a restaurant at Oklahoma City, a nut case came in and started shooting a woman and teenage boy. An armed private citizen pulled his weapon and shot the nut case. The mans swift action saved both victims lives. Nothing else yet available.
 
Well phrased Traveler. There was one "kid killer" who felt bullied. As kids we all felt bullied but we were taught to deal with it. But now bullying has become a large political issue to the point were kids feel they do not have to deal with it - someone else is responsible to protect them. It is the "snowflake" syndrome where kids have been raised to never have to deal with any disappointment so when one comes along, their reaction may be violent.

Hmm, in my experience, most, not all, violent teens come from homes where they have been exposed to abuse. Few kids who have never been exposed to such react violently, most who do seem to either be mentally ill, or under the influence of drugs/alcohol. Bullying is more often liable to drive teens to suicide. As for peeps of our generation being bullied, it was less

intense due to the lack of social media. As for protection, when children are deliberately pushed to suicide by other children, damn rights they should be protected. I grew up in an environment where only the strong survived. Would I have handled the bullytrolls terrorizing today’s kids? I doubt it. They saturate the social media stuff which kids use. It is relentless. Pack warfare against the vulnerable.
 

From what I understand, at least two school shootings were perpetrated by young males identifying with the Incel Movement whose members include those who glorify rape, forcible confinement, and even fantasies of murdering women. Scary stuff, and

certainly far from left wing. Banned from Reddit, this group primarily consists of teens and twenties males with severe social maladjustment issues who, like Elliot Rodger, expect women to fall into their laps without any effort on their part. Here in Canada, the man who drove his van into Toronto pedestrians idolized Elliot Rodger.

I have never heard of Incel Movement or Elliot Rodger, but it sounds like they are nut cases and it is precisely what I mean when I say children's activities need to be very closely monitored.
 
Any excuse but the guns in the U.S. huh? How you can leave that out of the equation is simply beyond me.

The U.S. should be the leader in the field instead of the follower.

Yes you are entitled to having a weapon for protection but do you need an AK-47 or an AR-15? These weapons were designed for the battlefield not for civilians to protect themselves against what? A herd of Bison?

Well stated.
 
The terms AK-47 AR-15 do not mean full automatic military style guns. These same rifles can be sold in either form of full automatic, fire and repeat fire as long as the trigger is held, or standard, fire once for each pull of the trigger. More shots would require more pulls of the trigger.

I don't know why so many folks get confused by the names. That describes their appearance only. The full automatic is illegal for the private market so only semi automatic would be the public market item.
 
It seems to me that "Bullying" has Always been part of the school/growing up experience. How it was handled decades ago, vs. today's experiences, seems to be quite different. Back when I was a kid, I remember a handful of "confrontations", where I got, and gave, my fair share of black eyes and bloody noses. Strangely enough, when one of my classmates and I laid into each other, we usually became fairly good friends afterwards. Today, it seems that a lot of these kids are afraid to "stand up" for themselves, and as a result, their tormentors are emboldened...and those who allow themselves to be continuously picked on often Snap.
 
I have very little patience with one-dimensional thinking. Any topic of discussion has more than one single dimension. Few topics are more complicated than the human mind and the behaviors that follow from the thinking of that mind.

When a person talks about school shootings, and he/she sees only one aspect of the shootings ie guns, guns, guns, they are seeing but one single factor and not even the most important factor. That is thinking in one dimension. That is the narrowest of views.

Take any photograph you happen to have handy. Now turn the photo "on edge" so that you can't see anything except the very edge. You now see only height. If you turn the photo, so that you can see height and width. You are now seeing in two dimensions.

There are however two additional dimensions. Depth and time. To even begin to understand any human behavior, we absolutely must look at all dimensions.

Case in point. When we ask ourselves why a school shooting happened, it does no good to zero in on the weapon to the exclusion of all other factors. If we wish to truly understand, we must, at least, look at every possible aspect of that most extreme of anti-social behaviors.

We must look at: what is happening to the teenager in school, his friendships, if any, his grades in school, how he is spending his time away from school, what specific activities he engages in, what "electronic media" he is absorbed in, does he get proper exercise, his relationship with his parent(s), is he being abused/bullied, how he treats others around him, does he torture animals, is he depressed, angry, non-communicative, does he self-isolate and become with-drawn, is he inflicting physical self harm, is he doing drugs, is he "accepted" by his peers, does he have chores/a job, his diet, is he having any fun, and does he have a girlfriend. In short, we absolutely must, examine his emotional health.

Last, but by no means least, we must examine time. How long has any of the above been happening. Teenage years are often extremely difficult years. It is normal for a teenager to be occasionally confused, even depressed, but when he gives an outward appearance of depression/anger for months, even years, then those responsible for him must take action before he commits extremely anti-social behavior.

When there is a school shooting, all aspects of his society has failed in it's obligations. Most especially, his parents have failed.
 
Even re something as catastrophic as school shootings perpetrated by a teen with only a partially developed mind, I am hesitant to assume it is automatically the parent’s fault, although at this point I am certain they blame themselves. Children are often gifted in presenting a front at home which appears shiny and positive when the reality is much darker.
 
Once again I will interrupt with my plea for all to look at the Swiss for guidance. They do have guns. Guns is part of their life. Their society manages well and are something that we all should look at for inspiration and guidance to how the US might change their way of living. Please read this article about the Swiss. I have posted others but it seems that no one wishes to learn from those that are doing better than we are. I just keep on trying.

My son lived in Switzerland for a while and said they were doing quite well. Now It is in print so I will publish it for all to see. I will only publish the text. Any other links and pictures will be on the original if you take time and interest.

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

[h=3]switzerland[/h]
[h=1]The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works[/h] The country had one mass shooting in 2001, but a resulting anti-gun referendum failed to pass. The Swiss will not give up the gun. Can their system work in the U.S.?
By Helena Bachmann / Geneva Dec. 20, 2012

Even as the gun-control debate rises again in the U.S. in the aftermath of the horrific school shooting in Newtown, Conn., the gun-loving Swiss are not about to lay down their arms. Guns are ubiquitous in this neutral nation, with sharpshooting considered a fun and wholesome recreational activity for people of all ages.

Even though Switzerland has not been involved in an armed conflict since a standoff between Catholics and Protestants in 1847, the Swiss are very serious not only about their right to own weapons but also to carry them around in public. Because of this general acceptance and even pride in gun ownership, nobody bats an eye at the sight of a civilian riding a bus, bike or motorcycle to the shooting range, with a rifle slung across the shoulder.

“We will never change our attitude about the responsible use of weapons by law-abiding citizens,” says Hermann Suter, vice president of Pro-Tell, the country’s gun lobby, named after legendary apple shooter William Tell, who used a crossbow to target enemies long before firearms were invented.


Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.


Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland’s gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity. Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able to fight his way to his regiment’s assembly point. (Switzerland was at risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot.)



But the “gun in every closet” tradition was challenged in 2001, after a disgruntled citizen opened fire with his army rifle inside a regional parliament, killing 14 and injuring 14 others — the only mass shooting in Switzerland’s recent history. The subsequent opposition to widespread gun ownership spearheaded a push for stricter arms legislation. The government and pro-gun groups argued, however, that the country’s existing laws regulating the sale, ownership and licensing of private guns, which includes a ban on carrying concealed weapons, are stringent enough. The law allows citizens or legal residents over the age of 18, who have obtained a permit from the government and who have no criminal record or history of mental illness, to buy up to three weapons from an authorized dealer, with the exception of automatic firearms and selective fire weapons, which are banned. Semiautomatics, which have caused havoc in the U.S., can be legally purchased.


The authorities made one concession, though: since 2008, all military — but not private — ammunition must be stored in central arsenals rather than in soldiers’ homes. The debate culminated in a nationwide referendum last year, when 56% of voters rejected the proposal initiated by anti-gun organizations to ban army rifles from homes altogether.
Although guns are responsible for between 200 and 300 suicides each year in Switzerland, Pro-Tell’s Suter says these statistics have to be put in a wider perspective. He points out that the bullets used in suicides are only a tiny fraction of the 75 million rounds of ammunition that are fired each year in Switzerland during military and civilian target practice.


One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson.


“Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,” says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different countries and concluded that a “culture of support” rather than focus on individualism, can deter mass killings.


“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,” he tells TIME.


That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.
 
I have very little patience with one-dimensional thinking. Any topic of discussion has more than one single dimension. Few topics are more complicated than the human mind and the behaviors that follow from the thinking of that mind.

When a person talks about school shootings, and he/she sees only one aspect of the shootings ie guns, guns, guns, they are seeing but one single factor and not even the most important factor. That is thinking in one dimension. That is the narrowest of views.

Take any photograph you happen to have handy. Now turn the photo "on edge" so that you can't see anything except the very edge. You now see only height. If you turn the photo, so that you can see height and width. You are now seeing in two dimensions.

There are however two additional dimensions. Depth and time. To even begin to understand any human behavior, we absolutely must look at all dimensions.

Case in point. When we ask ourselves why a school shooting happened, it does no good to zero in on the weapon to the exclusion of all other factors. If we wish to truly understand, we must, at least, look at every possible aspect of that most extreme of anti-social behaviors.

We must look at: what is happening to the teenager in school, his friendships, if any, his grades in school, how he is spending his time away from school, what specific activities he engages in, what "electronic media" he is absorbed in, does he get proper exercise, his relationship with his parent(s), is he being abused/bullied, how he treats others around him, does he torture animals, is he depressed, angry, non-communicative, does he self-isolate and become with-drawn, is he inflicting physical self harm, is he doing drugs, is he "accepted" by his peers, does he have chores/a job, his diet, is he having any fun, and does he have a girlfriend. In short, we absolutely must, examine his emotional health.

Last, but by no means least, we must examine time. How long has any of the above been happening. Teenage years are often extremely difficult years. It is normal for a teenager to be occasionally confused, even depressed, but when he gives an outward appearance of depression/anger for months, even years, then those responsible for him must take action before he commits extremely anti-social behavior.

When there is a school shooting, all aspects of his society has failed in it's obligations. Most especially, his parents have failed.

Isn't it equally one-dimensional to dismiss the possibility that the large number of automatic and other weapons in the US contribute mightily to the problem? Or to dismiss the far lower gun death and school shooting statistics in countries that are nearly identical to the US when it comes to all factors except private weapon ownership?
 
Isn't it equally one-dimensional to dismiss the possibility that the large number of automatic and other weapons in the US contribute mightily to the problem? Or to dismiss the far lower gun death and school shooting statistics in countries that are nearly identical to the US when it comes to all factors except private weapon ownership?


No ! It is not. I am looking at everything. Not just guns. The anti-gun fanatics look only at guns.
 
It's disappointing to realize that among most of the world's developed nations, other countries, very similar to the U.S, have very little mental illness or almost a total absence of bullying amongst their young??

Based on some of the arguments that are presented, I would have to assume that there's no other reason worth even considering.
 
.

Schools are a specific target because they are open and defenseless.

In the latest school shooting, a heroic science teacher/football coach tackled the shooter and was himself injured in the process.
That teacher needed the authorization and training to carry a gun for protection of students and teachers.

http://fox59.com/2018/05/25/science...ville-west-middle-school-witness-tells-fox59/


In a recent shooting at an Oklahoma restaurant, the shooter was killed by an armed citizen.
When the citizenry is armed, such criminal behavior will decrease because the criminals will die.
In our current government "justice" system, criminals are coddled which is why crime is running amok.

Armed civilian praised for stopping gunman after girl, mom shot at Oklahoma City restaurant

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma-city-shooting-louies-grill-bar-armed-citizen-stops-gunman/

http://kfor.com/2018/05/24/police-investigating-reported-shooting-at-lake-hefner/


The irony is... for the past several decades schools have been teaching their students the same destructive
cultural marxism that has allowed criminals to run amok while disarming lawful citizenry.

.
 
IMO it is a mistake to focus on guns or schools.

We need to examine every area or our day to day life and slightly harden the so-called soft targets that we frequent on a regular basis in a way that will provide maximum protection with minimum disruption to our way of life.

IMO much of this can be done with little or no money by simply raising peoples awareness of the potential dangers and how we should react to them.
 
Isn't it equally one-dimensional to dismiss the possibility that the large number of automatic and other weapons in the US contribute mightily to the problem? Or to dismiss the far lower gun death and school shooting statistics in countries that are nearly identical to the US when it comes to all factors except private weapon ownership?

Did you take time to read the article about the Swiss? They have a number of guns owned per person up near the top.

We do not have large numbers of automatic guns in the US. Many folks are more interested in private security and that means for most it is pistol types of guns. In the current rules the full automatic is not to be sold. So there should be fewer and fewer as time goes on.

Please do read about the Swiss and how they get started on guns at early ages. It is not the idea of guns to be scared of. People with little knowledge of how to handle difficult situation, mental problems, are the ones to worry about.
 
IMO it is a mistake to focus on guns or schools. ...
I'll throw out another reason other than guns---social media chatrooms. What do many of these shooters seem to have in common? Posting outrageous things on Facebook-like forums.

Teenagers have strange thoughts sometimes---thoughts they wouldn't dare share with anyone they know in real life, except maybe their best friend. Even a best friend is likely to cringe and run away when it is mentioned more than once.

On a chatroom, a lot of sick people from all over the world can "find" each other. The bullies, the manipulators, the bully wannabes cheering them on, the enablers, and trolls purposely stirring up trouble.

I wish I were articulate enough to describe this, but it's an explosive mix, in my opinion. Pretty soon it becomes an "I dare you" situation. And "I'll prove to you I mean it," and there becomes a competition to see who can come up with the most outrageous thought.

How do you solve that? Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can start a chatroom now. For free.
 
Did you take time to read the article about the Swiss? They have a number of guns owned per person up near the top.

We do not have large numbers of automatic guns in the US. Many folks are more interested in private security and that means for most it is pistol types of guns. In the current rules the full automatic is not to be sold. So there should be fewer and fewer as time goes on.

Please do read about the Swiss and how they get started on guns at early ages. It is not the idea of guns to be scared of. People with little knowledge of how to handle difficult situation, mental problems, are the ones to worry about.

I did read the full article about the Swiss, and appreciate you posting it. The Swiss have a wise approach to gun ownership. That said, their culture is not our culture. Swiss gun laws work for them because they approach gun ownership very differently than Americans do. Would that it we could easily make it otherwise, but we cannot.

Within the article itself are these words: "One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation." (The emphasis is mine.)

Note that even with their strong gun and shooting culture, Swiss citizens have far fewer guns per capita than Americans.

Thank you again for the reference to this article. I learn something every day on SF.
 
Within the article itself are these words: "One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation." (The emphasis is mine.)

.


"Responsibility and safety" describes America of 70 years ago, before cultural marxists destroyed it.

.
 
When we begin to zero in on precisely why those young men are so very angry, we will be a huge step closer to solving the problem.

I have noticed that in after action reports, many students have said something about how "weird" he was or "He never did fit in". If that is true, then the "rejection" might be ONE of the causes. Enough to make anyone feel depressed and finally deep-anger ?

Just curious, has anyone read that any of the killers were "jocks". IMO, that is one way of fitting in. I have a gut feeling that none of the killers were "jocks".

Were any of them involved with some school club ? Chess ? Debating? Any club ? Again, I suspect not.
 
Bullying has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread, and I agree that it seems to have some relevance. One of the things I have often thought about is how when someone stands up to the bullies we all give them a virtual slap on the back.

I remember seeing a rather disturbing youtube video of a bully being flattened by his apparent victim. The kid who 'snapped' and hit back was given almost hero status on social media and all over our TV, but all I saw when I watched the video was a kid, who happened to be a bit bigger, picking up a slightly smaller kid and slamming him into the concrete. Ok, he was acting in self-defence, no argument there, but did we need to turn him into some sort of hero? I'm just glad he never had a gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BdAk7H6Lk
 
Bullying has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread, and I agree that it seems to have some relevance. One of the things I have often thought about is how when someone stands up to the bullies we all give them a virtual slap on the back.

I remember seeing a rather disturbing youtube video of a bully being flattened by his apparent victim. The kid who 'snapped' and hit back was given almost hero status on social media and all over our TV, but all I saw when I watched the video was a kid, who happened to be a bit bigger, picking up a slightly smaller kid and slamming him into the concrete. Ok, he was acting in self-defence, no argument there, but did we need to turn him into some sort of hero? I'm just glad he never had a gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BdAk7H6Lk


My reply ? Hell yes, we need to make him a hero. With that one bit of self defense he achieved a life-time of healing. I'm proud of him. I only wish he had then booted the bully in the face. I would have.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top