JonDouglas
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
There doesn't seem to be the structure or sufficient data in this thread to make this anything other than more conversation and certainly not a valid experiment. It is opinion gathering at best.
A thought experiment for those who do not believe some or most of what we have been told about Covid 19.
- Thread starter asp3
- Start date
asp3
Senior Member
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
Once again my communication skills have failed me.
I was not asking them for information that backs up their accepted positions. I was asking what if anything would make them change one or more of their accepted positions. For example if someone thinks that masks are useless I'm wondering if there is anything or anyone that would cause them to change their mind and agree with the generally accepted position that masks do reduce the chances of infecting someone else or being infected themselves.
Do you have a suggestion of how I could have written my post so that was clearer? I'm wondering where my words are failing me so I can improve my communication.
hollydolly
SF VIP
- Location
- London England
This is a Doctor whose views I respect... this is todays' video ouput from him..please watch to the end...
..and this a previous one where he asks the questions we're all asking...
..and this a previous one where he asks the questions we're all asking...
digifoss
Member
- Location
- New Mexico
Both videos are great hollydolly, thanks for sharing
hollydolly
SF VIP
- Location
- London England
You're welcome, I hope it helps some of us...
asp3
Senior Member
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
My suggestion was individual thought experiments for each person to see who or what would change their mind regarding Covid and pandemic beliefs which are counter to ones that are prevalent in mainstream media. I see their replies as the results of their thought experiment. I don't see the thread an experiment itself.
Maybe my definition of a thought experiment is different than yours. I don't have any formal definition in mind and could very likely be wrong about what a thought experiment is. However it is in line with what I have previously seen proposed as thought experiments, so in that case the crowd I run with would all be using the term incorrectly. I realize that is completely possible as well.
JonDouglas
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I would have loved for you to structure it around a hypothesis and then test folks' views on and alternatives to that hypothesis. Perhaps I am too much of a math/science nerd. If so, I apologize.
officerripley
Well-known Member
- Location
- Porlock, Calif
I, for one, think your communication skills are just fine and have thought about it and honestly don't know how you could be clearer.
If people weren’t sure what you meant , they could ask.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
@AnnieA, thank you for the update. Since I no longer have loved ones in health or AL facilities, I've been out of touch on their evolving Covid strategies. What a relief for the residents and family members to be able to have contact again. When my mother and FIL were in AL frequent family visits were incredibly important to their - and our - mental health.
As you may remember, many of us have taken your advice to heart throughout the past year, including the purchase of oximeters (I bought them for my children, too), early mask wearing and increased hygiene recommendations.
I agree that much of the US response has been sloppy and/or ill advised.
asp3
Senior Member
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
I'm afraid I don't have the skills or experience to set up such a grand experiment. I took experimental psychology in college and we designed and ran a couple of studies, but that was decades ago. Also it was on a much simpler topic.
AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
It is so wonderful to see contact gradually restored! We're just a few weeks out from all residents having their second vaccine dose so that'll really change things for the better.
And while I do appreciate your appreciation of some of my advice, that's not what is irritating me about this thread.
The major irritant is that it over simplifies a complex life sciences issue into polarizing camps.
officerripley
Well-known Member
- Location
- Porlock, Calif
I really don't think that was the intention of this thread, could be wrong but maybe I'm not good at spotting oversimplification. And then again, maybe I am.
Here’s one thing I’ve noticed recently. With more and more people getting vaccinated, there have been more and more people infected with the virus in our area
Maybe those who get vaccinated get a false sense of protection and start mingling with others too soon. They can after all still get the virus and spread it to others.
I’m expecting news later to confirm that vaccine developers expected more from this vaccine than its actually doing. Perhaps I’m being a bit of a pessimist
Maybe those who get vaccinated get a false sense of protection and start mingling with others too soon. They can after all still get the virus and spread it to others.
I’m expecting news later to confirm that vaccine developers expected more from this vaccine than its actually doing. Perhaps I’m being a bit of a pessimist
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AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
I really don't think that was the intention of this thread, could be wrong but maybe I'm not good at spotting oversimplification. And then again, maybe I am.
I just came back to clarify that. @asp3, I like you! ...May not make a hill of beans of a difference to you, but I do and generally enjoy threads in which we're both involved.
My negative reaction wouldn't be as strong without @SetWave 's "orange slime, flat earth business. It implies that those of us who are skeptical of the mainstream media are blind Trump supporters and I personally loath Trump ...but I'm not a fan of mainstream media on the whole. Sometimes I find something great in the most liberal publications. I also generally dislike Fox News for whatever that's worth. In all that, I think I'm disappointed that @SetWave 's immature political post that hit me personally went unchallenged.
From what I've observed, following the social distancing, mask wearing, etc., all the things they've been telling us to do for the last year, plus nearly everyone here having had both vaccine shots by now, has paid off. I don't know a single person who has gotten Covid. One lady I knew had multiple health issues, was very careful about not leaving her apartment, followed all the rules, and ironically never got Covid but she died a few days ago of cancer. Which proves nothing about Covid or its vaccine, of course.
Keesha, your first sentence got cut off. Did you mean to say in your town, in your immediate neighborhood, in your country, or what? And were the people who got it the same people who were vaccinated?
Asp, I can give you a theoretical answer. If I were holding off on getting the vaccine, and the death rate started rising alarmingly for everyone who got the virus, and no one who got the vaccine got the virus (or a very tiny number, 5% or less), that would change my mind! It would be suicidal to do otherwise.
Likewise, if I were planning to get the vaccine, but horrible side effects, including death, started turning up, that would probably change my mind.
Keesha, your first sentence got cut off. Did you mean to say in your town, in your immediate neighborhood, in your country, or what? And were the people who got it the same people who were vaccinated?
Asp, I can give you a theoretical answer. If I were holding off on getting the vaccine, and the death rate started rising alarmingly for everyone who got the virus, and no one who got the vaccine got the virus (or a very tiny number, 5% or less), that would change my mind! It would be suicidal to do otherwise.
Likewise, if I were planning to get the vaccine, but horrible side effects, including death, started turning up, that would probably change my mind.
I meant to say in our province however most of the areas most infected are the Greater Toronto Areas as well as Peel Region. Both of these areas are very populated and from following the news, were the first to get vaccinated. Our vaccinations aren’t ready in our area yet.
Anyway the areas that got the vaccinations first have gone up substantially which I find strange.
It’s not very assuring. Ontario has about 4500 cases a day and most of them are just south of us
AnnieA
Well-known Member
- Location
- Down South
That isn't good news.
Did cases start going up before people got the second dose or very shortly after the second and perhaps antibodies hadn't yet fully developed?This part I couldn’t tell you as I have no idea.That isn't good news.
Our area had what’s called a ‘lock down’ but directly after Christmas. In fact I think the order was to start December 26, 2020. Not long after Christmas there was a huge spike. Then we were levelling off at about 100 cases a day provincial.
The order was lifted and many gathered for Easter. After Easter we are now soon to reach the 5,000 infected a day within our province.
That’s serious!
This was one of my main reasons for wanting my husband to take early retirement. He worked in a high risk area. He has since retired and we are now moving to a new place within Canada with a bare minimum of cases. Hopefully I’ll be able to follow their protocol and understand more about it and how it works. I’m not completely opposed to getting vaccinated. I just want to make sure it works and that my system can handle it.
When I was younger there was an important vaccine that I couldn’t have due to what was in it but I don’t have a clue what it was. I do remember it being a big deal though since they were offering them at our school.
Being driven home by taxi this afternoon, I saw a number of pedestrians of varying ages, not wearing masks! Young, old, in groups and singly - no mask
Perhaps some of the seniors had their vaccines and think it's okay to go without, but this isn't so! Now I know why the numbers aren't down as they should be.
apologies @asp3 .. kind of OT.
Perhaps some of the seniors had their vaccines and think it's okay to go without, but this isn't so! Now I know why the numbers aren't down as they should be.
apologies @asp3 .. kind of OT.
You know Pinky, I’ve been thinking the exact same thing. Loads of people in Toronto and Peel Region got vaccinated and I think it gave them false confidence. Maybe they thought since they were vaccinated that they didn’t have to be as careful.Being driven home by taxi this afternoon, I saw a number of pedestrians of varying ages, not wearing masks! Young, old, in groups and singly - no mask
Perhaps some of the seniors had their vaccines and think it's okay to go without, but this isn't so! Now I know why the numbers aren't down as they should be.
apologies @asp3 .. kind of OT.
More families started getting together, more restaurants opened for closeness to happen and kids walk to school side by side.
It’s no wonder the cases are so high. Everyone’s let their guard down since the vaccines been introduced.
It might be doing well elsewhere but in our province , we somehow screwed up big time.
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Jules
SF VIP
Since my family lives in Ontario, I thought I’d look up the numbers.
Ontario has a population of ~14million.
Numbers vaccinated.
All data reflects totals from 8 p.m. the previous day. Last updated on April 13, 2021 at 10:30 a.m.
This is more shocking than I realized.
My family live in cottage country and every weekend is busy, busy, busy even though people aren’t supposed to travel.
Ontario has a population of ~14million.
Numbers vaccinated.
All data reflects totals from 8 p.m. the previous day. Last updated on April 13, 2021 at 10:30 a.m.
- 95,692
Daily doses
administered - 3,310,157
Total doses
administered - 335,262
People fully vaccinated
This is more shocking than I realized.
My family live in cottage country and every weekend is busy, busy, busy even though people aren’t supposed to travel.
Leonie
Member
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
I decided to look at your question from the other side. If I am reading it correctly you are asking people who don't believe what they are being told if there is anything (what or who) that might change their minds.
I tried to think of what might change my mind. I do believe most, if not all, of what I have been hearing from the beginning. The lockdowns and restrictions seem to have worked (so far) where I live so why wouldn't I believe? I have the usual questions and uncertainties about the vaccines, but not enough to stop me from having them. I take the advice of my doctor as I do on all health issues, and he recommends that I have the vaccine.
You have given me food for thought though. I am trying to see it from the other side. I am really only looking at it from my own experience and point of view. I am old, with an underlying medical condition. That makes the virus a very real threat to me. Financially though, it doesn't have much of an impact on my life, being retired.
If I was younger and still working, especially if I couldn't work from home, I might look at it very differently. The economic side of it might be more important to me than the health side of it. Children to support, mortgages to pay. After all, it doesn't seem to have quite the same deadly impact on younger people for the most part.
A large part of the division in society comes from that difference, an oversimplification of course, but still valid I think. The difference in the way it is presented in the media is noticeably in that vein - economic versus health advice - depending on which way (and how far) the particular media outlook leans. News broadcasts of both persuasions constantly give updates on the state of the economy one side maybe being a little more vocal than the other on that side of the 'debate' - for want of a better word.
That being the case I wonder if anything at all could really change my mind, given that these days I am so easily able to choose my preferred media provider - as are we all.
I tried to think of what might change my mind. I do believe most, if not all, of what I have been hearing from the beginning. The lockdowns and restrictions seem to have worked (so far) where I live so why wouldn't I believe? I have the usual questions and uncertainties about the vaccines, but not enough to stop me from having them. I take the advice of my doctor as I do on all health issues, and he recommends that I have the vaccine.
You have given me food for thought though. I am trying to see it from the other side. I am really only looking at it from my own experience and point of view. I am old, with an underlying medical condition. That makes the virus a very real threat to me. Financially though, it doesn't have much of an impact on my life, being retired.
If I was younger and still working, especially if I couldn't work from home, I might look at it very differently. The economic side of it might be more important to me than the health side of it. Children to support, mortgages to pay. After all, it doesn't seem to have quite the same deadly impact on younger people for the most part.
A large part of the division in society comes from that difference, an oversimplification of course, but still valid I think. The difference in the way it is presented in the media is noticeably in that vein - economic versus health advice - depending on which way (and how far) the particular media outlook leans. News broadcasts of both persuasions constantly give updates on the state of the economy one side maybe being a little more vocal than the other on that side of the 'debate' - for want of a better word.
That being the case I wonder if anything at all could really change my mind, given that these days I am so easily able to choose my preferred media provider - as are we all.
Yes, it’s shocking. Out of 14 million people only 335,282 are fully vaccinated.
I think it’s from lack of vaccinations and lack of following rules.
It appears that many people think they don't need to wear a mask outdoors! This is so frustrating!