Alternative views on the Ukraine war

Lethe200 said:
At this point, since Putin's expectation is dashed that the Ukrainians would roll over and accept the installation of a Russian-approved puppet government, his objective is simple: He needs control of Eastern Ukraine. It's where, as Knight points out, their natural resources are. He also needs that corridor thru Ukraine to the sea, because otherwise Russia is a land-locked nation.
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Russia doesn't look "landlocked" to me.

Russia.jpg
 

CarolfromTX said:
I’m pretty sure Putin IS a demon. And those pictures of death and destruction you want us to stop watching pretty much prove it.
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The internet is loaded with the same exact horror pictures and videos of the US invasion of Iraq.

So far the civilian casualty in Ukraine is approx.
Civilians3,393 killed (312 foreign)United Nations

Invasion of Iraq
29,517 casualties

This is the picture page in google of the destruction and death in Iraq

https://www.google.com/search?q=ira...9kL3oBA&bih=804&biw=1536&client=firefox-b-1-d
 
CarolfromTX said:
If you can’t see the difference in the US fighting Sadam Hussein (who invaded Kuwait, remember?) and the barbaric action of the Russian army specifically targeting schools and hospitals, then I’m at a loss for words. Whatever, brah.
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Gulf War I was justifiable and when Kuwait was freed the US troops refrained from mass slaughter of the retreating Iraqi army. George Bush Snr was a man of honour in that regard.

Gulf War II was not a just war. Neither is Russia's war on Ukraine, including the Crimea and other contested territories.
 
CarolfromTX said:
If you can’t see the difference in the US fighting Sadam Hussein (who invaded Kuwait, remember?) and the barbaric action of the Rusian army specifically targeting schools and hospitals, then I’m at a loss for words. Whatever, brah.
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This makes me so sad that we have to compare who is worst....and justify killing innocent people, on all sides. I get to feel like it is impossible to be understood. I do not want war or fighting or slapping or hatred. I want to end it. Yet we all are determined to be right. If we are right then somebody has to be wrong. It is my personal view that we could all cooperate if we stopped taking sides. Why do we have to root for the home team?
 
I wish you were right, but Putin will NEVER see it that way, and left to his own devices violence and chaos will reign until he is stopped. Idealism is a wonderful thing, and we need more of it, but at the same time you can't stick your head in the sand and ignore reality. Humanity does not have a great record of cooperation, with the exception of times like this. Free nations are more united than they have been since WW11.

Paco Dennis said:
It is my personal view that we could all cooperate if we stopped taking sides.
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Geezer Garage said:
I wish you were right, but Putin will NEVER see it that way, and left to his own devices violence and chaos will reign until he is stopped. Idealism is a wonderful thing, and we need more of it, but at the same time you can't stick your head in the sand and ignore reality. Humanity does not have a great record of cooperation, with the exception of times like this. Free nations are more united than they have been since WW11.
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That bis the statement that confuses me so much. Isn't all our views idealism, and sometimes and bunch of people believe the same thing? Galeleo was killed for his blasphemis ideas, that were "reality". Common sense tells us when we cool down we begin to talk to each other again. Do you think that man is basically bad...or basically good? Is there a God? Everything is an argument. Maybe THAT is reality and force is the only way to go. So the powerful rule and make the rest their servants. I don't want it that way, but I am beginning to feel like I have to join a club of some kind to be included in the human race.
 
Paco Dennis said:
This makes me so sad that we have to compare who is worst....and justify killing innocent people, on all sides. I get to feel like it is impossible to be understood. I do not want war or fighting or slapping or hatred. I want to end it. Yet we all are determined to be right. If we are right then somebody has to be wrong. It is my personal view that we could all cooperate if we stopped taking sides. Why do we have to root for the home team?
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Why are you afraid of wrong? Sometimes people are wrong and must be held responsible. You're a kind man, but you're not in reality about Putin. I am no fan of war except for defense.
 
Pepper said:
Why are you afraid of wrong? Sometimes people are wrong and must be held responsible. You're a kind man, but you're not in reality about Putin. I am no fan of war except for defense.
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Yes, I am afraid of being wrong. We were wrong about being prejudice about race. We were wrong to brand Julian Assange a traitor. We were wrong when we masqueraded the Americas indigenous people. etc. Aren't you?
 
I accept when I'm wrong and make amends if possible. I'm glad to say so far I've been on the progressive side of history.

It's Putin who doesn't give a fig and is trying to de-evolve the progress. We've come too far to tolerate his war of aggression against a nation wanting to be free of him.
 
You asked about wrong @Paco Dennis. Can it be YOU are now? Hate to bring up that imbecile Hitler, I really do, but............were there two sides to him? Or just the one? Diplomacy with him? HUH?

Live Free or Die. Give me Liberty or give me Death. ETC.
 
Germans supported Hitler, Americans supported GHB, many Russians support Putin...it is not black or white. You believe you are a progressive but I am not so sure, because no progressive thinks that slaughtering people in greater number cares about human life, and that is exactly what is going to happen if we don't de-escalate.
 
Paco Dennis said:
How did this become a Pro-US/NATO cheer leading thread.
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Is it possible you are misinterpreting what is going on? To me, it seems to be virtue signaling. Everyone is shocked and alarmed by what is happening to Ukraine and its people, yet the one thing that theoretically would really hurt Russia... is not on the table. Why should the master race be inconvenienced by deaths of Ukrainians. A sentiment that really is behind most of our thinking, IMHO. So we follow the news and watch in horror... then go back to our daily lives of complaining about gasoline prices (which appear to be headed back up), grocery prices following suit, etc.

Somebody really needs to do something, as long as it does not impact us.
 
Paco Dennis said:
Germans supported Hitler, Americans supported GHB, many Russians support Putin...it is not black or white. You believe you are a progressive but I am not so sure, because no progressive thinks that slaughtering people in greater number cares about human life, and that is exactly what is going to happen if we don't de-escalate.
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So, you don't have to be sure. The important thing is I am sure. I know my history, you don't. I believe in defensive war.

Your comparison of Hitler & GHB is not realistic, although GHB was definitely wrong in his actions. I still wear my T shirt that says 'Bush Lied, Thousands Died'. That doesn't make him Hitler. We don't know which Russians support Putin because you will be arrested if you oppose him. When I loudly protested GHB I was not arrested. Big Difference.
 
Pepper said:
GHB is not realistic, although GHB was definitely wrong in his actions. I still wear my T shirt that says 'Bush Lied, Thousands Died'
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Do you mean GHB or GWB?

George Herbert was the first Gulf War, reversing Saddam' invasion of Kuwait, arguably a defensive war. George Washington invaded Iraq in the second Gulf War, in no way a defensive war.
 
Paco Dennis said:
I don't think I am misrepresenting my view of whats going on. Tell me someone who knows exactly what is going on? No one...and yet people are jumping on band wagons to "virtue signal" their preference.
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That's the problem in a nutshell. No one knows exactly what is going on, yet people are sabre rattling and casting blame and calling for war and I'm like, wait a minute... 2 months ago everybody was afraid of their governments forcing them to be vaxxed without informed consent, then suddenly someone flips a switch and the same people who hated the unvaxxed began hating on Putin and calling for war and now they hate anyone who doesn't hate Putin and call for war as they do.

This is just another thing to try to divide us. :(
 
Geezer Garage said:
We need to do that to stop Putin, but at the same time you hate to punish the Russian people for his crimes. Regime change would be the best outcome. Let's hope that's the way it goes.
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It isn't as simple as removing Putin. Just as the US has a "permanent Washington" of bipartisan Neocon war hawks who have been behind the deadly US Middle East overreach across all recent administrations, Russia has many in power who will ensure a like successor follows him.
 

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