Anti-Coal Trend and Some Reasons Why

[Lethe200]

I was reading about the warming climate and how it was melting the permafrost. Siberia has the largest area of permafrost in the world, but there are other countries too, such as Canada. The first problem people face are the mudslides and sinkholes (which are big and getting bigger).

But there are 2 other problems that can't be seen:

1) Permafrost is the biggest absorber of excess CO2. There is more CO2 stored in permafrost than many, many times what is currently in our atmosphere - and of course, current levels are already contributing to global warming. As permafrost thaws, that CO2 is released.

and this I did not know:
2) Our burning of coal throughout history produces not just visible air pollution - one of the elements in coal smoke is mercury. This highly toxic element goes into the atmosphere and into water....and thus into the permafrost. Tests have shown there are huge concentrations of toxic mercury stored in permafrost.

The destruction of permafrost, meaning that winters are becoming so warm that the permafrost cannot refreeze into thick layers, is therefore not only a danger from a global warming standpoint, but also because mercury is incredibly dangerous*.
* see Wiki: Mercury Poisoning

 

[davey]

It made the cities of England filthy - gave the miners lung disease and created giant pot holes all over the country - as depicted in the film Brassed Off - you must have seen it?

 

[Debrah N.]

D

Doesn’t quite make any sense, does it? Building coal plants while making climate pledges. They are even building coal plants in Africa. What gives?

They can say anything because who would be able to doubt them?

I think the problem is they have such a large population for one, that the renewables aren't yet matching the need. As well, they're busy building the renewable production systems but they have a ways to go on developing the grids that include storage and distribution. And I guess the same issue might be happening in African countries. And I was just reading that the plan is to begin reducing coal dependance in 2030, with a goal of reaching net zero by 2060. I have read too from several sources, that they've currently reduced emissions in China by 42%. In Canada, we're feeling positive by an 8% reduction as a result of our carbon tax/rebate system.

 

[Debrah N.]

It made the cities of England filthy - gave the miners lung disease and created giant pot holes all over the country - as depicted in the film Brassed Off - you must have seen it?

The burning of coal also caused that disaster in London, called The Great Smog of London back in 1952. Over a period of 4 days, between 4000 and 10,000 people were killed by the bad air. It was some sort of pressure inversion that made it impossible for the coal emissions to blow away and people were forced to breathe it and many died!

 

[Mike]

I remember in the 1990s, while working on a small
job in a power station, in Staffordshire, the sister plant,
both were coal, which had been decommissioned, was
sold to the Chinese, there were hundreds of them, in a
team that came to take the old plant away to China, it
was, to me, an amazing education, of how some people
work, they were all over the plant, every brick was numbered,
which I thought was a bit too much, but they did it and
then the numbers were written on a plan of the area where
each brick came from, it did provide employment for a lot
of people though.

Mike.

 

[Paco Dennis]

From what I have been reading lately we are already at 1.5 degrees hotter than pre-industrial days. That is too high already. The climate is showing us that. Immediate action needs to be taken by all countries to slow down this progress. Soon it should be one of, if not our most important issues.? Slow down the burning of fossil fuels.

 

[StarSong]

From what I have been reading lately we are already at 1.5 degrees hotter than pre-industrial days. That is too high already. The climate is showing us that. Immediate action needs to be taken by all countries to slow down this progress. Soon it should be one of, if not our most important issues.? Slow down the burning of fossil fuels.

I've read that, too. The planet is in serious trouble, yet because of weak leadership that's beholden to oil companies, we continue to fiddle while Rome (and everywhere else) burns, floods and experiences catastrophic storms and droughts.

 

[rgp]

From what I have been reading lately we are already at 1.5 degrees hotter than pre-industrial days. That is too high already. The climate is showing us that. Immediate action needs to be taken by all countries to slow down this progress. Soon it should be one of, if not our most important issues.? Slow down the burning of fossil fuels.

OK, so what's your solution / alternative ? Wind will not produce enough power, neither will solar. If we switch to electric cars ... we will need even more power [electricity produced] Sure we could go back to riding horses, assuming you don't mind the smell of horse urine ..... gallons of it, running in the gutters. Or the smell of horse poop, tons of it, stacked / piled up where ever they pile it . I'm sure the runoff when it rains will not pollute the rivers / reservoirs . And gee, there won't be too much smoke in the air, from everyone burning wood to have some heat in their homes.

So please, let's hear your solution to the [problem?] Ya know what they say, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.

 

[Paco Dennis]

OK, so what's your solution / alternative ? Wind will not produce enough power, neither will solar. If we switch to electric cars ... we will need even more power [electricity produced] Sure we could go back to riding horses, assuming you don't mind the smell of horse urine ..... gallons of it, running in the gutters. Or the smell of horse poop, tons of it, stacked / piled up where ever they pile it . I'm sure the runoff when it rains will not pollute the rivers / reservoirs . And gee, there won't be too much smoke in the air, from everyone burning wood to have some heat in their homes.

So please, let's hear your solution to the [problem?] Ya know what they say, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.

I understand your skepticism, and it's true that transitioning to renewable energy sources like wind and solar has challenges. However, they are currently the most viable large-scale alternatives to fossil fuels. Improving energy efficiency, developing better storage solutions, and expanding grids to distribute renewable energy can help address the issue of intermittent power supply. Additionally, implementing carbon capture technologies, reforestation, and sustainable farming practices can significantly reduce our carbon footprint. It's a complex issue, and there's no one-size-fits-all solution, but every little bit helps. We all need to contribute to the change towards a sustainable future.

 

[StarSong]

OK, so what's your solution / alternative ? Wind will not produce enough power, neither will solar. If we switch to electric cars ... we will need even more power [electricity produced] Sure we could go back to riding horses, assuming you don't mind the smell of horse urine ..... gallons of it, running in the gutters. Or the smell of horse poop, tons of it, stacked / piled up where ever they pile it . I'm sure the runoff when it rains will not pollute the rivers / reservoirs . And gee, there won't be too much smoke in the air, from everyone burning wood to have some heat in their homes.

So please, let's hear your solution to the [problem?] Ya know what they say, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.

Well the first rule of solving a problem is the old adage about the way to fill a hole is first to stop digging. In this case, stop opening up new oil fields. And hurtful as it might be to the public's pocketbooks, raise taxes on fuel to decrease consumption, and convince Americans that they don't need Suburbans to cart their 1-2 children back and forth to school.

Use that tax money to fund other sources of energy - making solar panels so affordable that they wind up on virtually every roof, perhaps?

Let's not forget mega-taxing very high users of power, Bitcoin and their ilk.

 

[Debrah N.]

......
It's all just lies. China intends to take whatever it wants forever. All the ground near the China sea and whatever Shallows.

Gee, sounds like you're talking about how Western countries have operated for generations. Always hate it when 'the other guy' does it though don't we?

 

[Debrah N.]

I've read that, too. The planet is in serious trouble, yet because of weak leadership that's beholden to oil companies, we continue to fiddle while Rome (and everywhere else) burns, floods and experiences catastrophic storms and droughts.

Beholden also to 'the voter'. Because we have democratic elections, the parties are risk averse when it comes to losing votes which makes them reluctant to put in regulations that would force change.

Our Prime Minister has tried with the carbon 'tax'/rebate and it's still a key factor in his unpopularity even though most of us get a rebate back that is more than what we've paid out in the carbon 'tax'. It's not easy to change the heart of voters until they are really hurting on an issue like this.

 

[StarSong]

Beholden also to 'the voter'. Because we have democratic elections, the parties are risk averse when it comes to losing votes which makes them reluctant to put in regulations that would force change.

Our Prime Minister has tried with the carbon 'tax'/rebate and it's still a key factor in his unpopularity even though most of us get a rebate back that is more than what we've paid out in the carbon 'tax'. It's not easy to change the heart of voters until they are really hurting on an issue like this.

I agree with you. Nevertheless extraordinary weather is being experienced on a regular basis planet-wide. Price tags to clean up and rebuild run from the tens of millions to billions per event.

Home insurance rates are skyrocketing and many insurers are refusing to renew policies in areas the deem too risky. And still we burn fossil fuels.

Willful blindness serves no one.

 

[Jules]

Let's not forget mega-taxing very high users of power, Bitcoin and their ilk.

Many may not even know about the power needed to run these Bitcoin farms and Cloud storage.

 

[rgp]

Well the first rule of solving a problem is the old adage about the way to fill a hole is first to stop digging. In this case, stop opening up new oil fields. And hurtful as it might be to the public's pocketbooks, raise taxes on fuel to decrease consumption, and convince Americans that they don't need Suburbans to cart their 1-2 children back and forth to school.

Use that tax money to fund other sources of energy - making solar panels so affordable that they wind up on virtually every roof, perhaps?

Let's not forget mega-taxing very high users of power, Bitcoin and their ilk.

I hear your point, and to a point agree but. As for the solar panels , doubt it will ever work in areas that tend to be cloudy, [like here where I live] and as for battery storage etc. retro-fitting and older home could cost a fortune .

As for the vehicles, i don't want to get into telling people what they can drive. Some folks look at it like a status symbol ? Not too me, but to some , hell my truck is 21 yrs/old , and most of my life I rode a motorcycle . And even though you might only see them hauling around a kid or two .... it may be used for many things.

 

[StarSong]

I hear your point, and to a point agree but. As for the solar panels , doubt it will ever work in areas that tend to be cloudy, [like here where I live] and as for battery storage etc. retro-fitting and older home could cost a fortune .

As for the vehicles, i don't want to get into telling people what they can drive. Some folks look at it like a status symbol ? Not too me, but to some , hell my truck is 21 yrs/old , and most of my life I rode a motorcycle . And even though you might only see them hauling around a kid or two .... it may be used for many things.

I'm not arguing against larger vehicles that are used for work or hauling. I'm talking about the behemoth suburban-mom vehicles that have remained in vogue. My neighborhood is full of them. Check out the local elementary school at drop-off and pick up times to see what I mean.

The biggest loads they carry is the weekly groceries.

Another thing that gets me - how few stay-at-home parents walk their children to school despite living less than a mile away. The drive their to school, then head to the gym. What's wrong with this picture???

Despite having a car, my mother put the baby in a stroller and walked the older kids back & forth to school until we were old enough to walk, then bicycle, in a group with older neighborhood kids. She wasn't overweight, nor were we.

 

[rgp]

I'm not arguing against larger vehicles that are used for work or hauling. I'm talking about the behemoth suburban-mom vehicles that have remained in vogue. My neighborhood is full of them. Check out the local elementary school at drop-off and pick up times to see what I mean.

The biggest loads they carry is the weekly groceries.

Another thing that gets me - how few stay-at-home parents walk their children to school despite living less than a mile away. The drive their to school, then head to the gym. What's wrong with this picture???

Despite having a car, my mother put the baby in a stroller and walked the older kids back & forth to school until we were old enough to walk, then bicycle, in a group with older neighborhood kids. She wasn't overweight, nor were we.

Looks like we agree completely here.

Not far from me, about two streets over, there is a family with a long drive. A friend tells me that in cold weather the mother, pulls the car out of the garage and drives the kids to the end of the drive, to wait for the bus in the warm car. I think her car is an import SUV.

IMO, that's the kind of stuff that raises a generation of softies !

 

[againstthegrain]

Coal has been out priced by renewables and nat gas.

NYT - "For decades, environmentalists fought power plants that burn coal, the dirtiest fossil fuel, by highlighting their pollution: soot, mercury and the carbon dioxide that is dangerously heating the planet.

But increasingly, opponents have been making an economic argument, telling regulators that electricity produced by coal is more expensive for consumers than power generated by solar, wind and other renewable sources."


Electricity From Coal Is Pricey. Should Consumers Have to Pay?

 

[rgp]

Coal has been out priced by renewables and nat gas.

NYT - "For decades, environmentalists fought power plants that burn coal, the dirtiest fossil fuel, by highlighting their pollution: soot, mercury and the carbon dioxide that is dangerously heating the planet.

But increasingly, opponents have been making an economic argument, telling regulators that electricity produced by coal is more expensive for consumers than power generated by solar, wind and other renewable sources."


Electricity From Coal Is Pricey. Should Consumers Have to Pay?

Perhaps ? But wind and solar cannot keep up with the demand. Particularly solar in more cloudy states ....... and wind in less windy states.

 

[Debrah N.]

Coal has been out priced by renewables and nat gas.

NYT - "For decades, environmentalists fought power plants that burn coal, the dirtiest fossil fuel, by highlighting their pollution: soot, mercury and the carbon dioxide that is dangerously heating the planet.

But increasingly, opponents have been making an economic argument, telling regulators that electricity produced by coal is more expensive for consumers than power generated by solar, wind and other renewable sources."


Electricity From Coal Is Pricey. Should Consumers Have to Pay?

Some of that expense will be the cost to people's health. Until about 9 years ago, the power was generated from coal in Alberta where I live. We had the worst air in Canada in this province because of that coal and the tar sands up north where our 'oil' comes from and the abundance of abandoned gas wells that are leaking methane. We still have the worst air quality in the country, but it's not as bad as it was when they burned coal.

It's really kind of bizarre to say that because Alberta also has the most glorious blue skies even in the winter! You'd hardly know about the 'bad air' unless someone told you.

 

[StarSong]

Perhaps ? But wind and solar cannot keep up with the demand. Particularly solar in more cloudy states ....... and wind in less windy states.

So maybe we can't cover ALL power needs with wind and solar today - that doesn't negate our desperate need to move away from fossil fuels as much and as quickly as possible.

Extreme weather, rising seas and climate migration by humans and other species have only just begun.

 

[StarSong]

Some of that expense will be the cost to people's health. Until about 9 years ago, the power was generated from coal in Alberta where I live. We had the worst air in Canada in this province because of that coal and the tar sands up north where our 'oil' comes from and the abundance of abandoned gas wells that are leaking methane. We still have the worst air quality in the country, but it's not as bad as it was when they burned coal.

It's really kind of bizarre to say that because Alberta also has the most glorious blue skies even in the winter! You'd hardly know about the 'bad air' unless someone told you.

I recently read "Fire Weather" by John Vaillant, about Alberta's oil town, Fort McMurray and the horrific 2016 wildfire that burned for over a year. It's a mind blowing, cautionary account of how climate change, human changes to the environment, fire behaviors, and human responses (including delayed actions due to disbelief) can combine to create a hell on earth.

I highly recommend Vaillant's fascinating account.

Are you/were you anywhere near Fort McMurray during that time, Deb?

 

[dilettante]

Another thing that gets me - how few stay-at-home parents walk their children to school despite living less than a mile away.

I certainly get the point, but this struck me as funny. From Kindergarten we just walked to and from school ourselves after being shown the route. Admittedly, it was only maybe 3/4 mile but there were two busy streets involved.

Are kids just dumber or more fragile now, or are parents getting nuttier?

Of course this wasn't L.A., or Beirut, or something. I suppose I should consider that.

 

[StarSong]

I certainly get the point, but this struck me as funny. From Kindergarten we just walked to and from school ourselves after being shown the route. Admittedly, it was only maybe 3/4 mile but there were two busy streets involved.

Are kids just dumber or more fragile now, or are parents getting nuttier?

Of course this wasn't L.A., or Beirut, or something. I suppose I should consider that.

I lived in a rural area until my late teens and wasn't allowed to cross solo what we considered busy streets until I was about 8 years old.

Parents are much more concerned about kidnappings and other predatory behavior than our (and previous) generation's parents were. With most women staying home back then, there was also a feeling of safety from watchful neighborhood eyes and ears.

 

[Jules]

So maybe we can't cover ALL power needs with wind and solar today - that doesn't negate our desperate need to move away from fossil fuels as much and as quickly as possible.

Extreme weather, rising seas and climate migration by humans and other species has only just begun.

Wind and solar won’t be able to supply all the energy; they certainly will help with part of it. I’d like to see more solar panels on homes. And better designs that are more energy efficient. And also fire resistant.