Ban All Sharia Muslims From U.S. Entry-------Agree Or Disagree?

Debby said:
Reading your comment senile1, I was reminded of the Brexit situation and the demands for change.......every time there is a demand for change, there's also a need for a recalibration of the status quo. And in every one of those instances, a requirement that we begin to quit separating from one another. Do you think humanity will ever manage that? Sometimes I feel a glimmer of hope and then I turn on the news........and well, you know hope is dashed once again.:(

Seems like there's such an effort, with phrases like 'lest we forget' and 'learn from our mistakes' and 'history has many lessons for us' and we never really learn. I guess we take comfort from offering 'lip service' to kindnesses and compassion but fail to put our own lives on that line by making new choices that will pull society in the right direction. While Gandhi may have had his own problems with being a racist, that famous quote of his, 'Be the change that you would see in the world' still stands. The question is, who is listening.
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Exactly the point Ms. Debby, "everyone is talking, nobody is walking." We can preach till we turn blue, the need for change and the means of going about it, but till we start practicing what we preach, tis all hot air. One has to "live" it, it has to become part of one's lifestyle, or else you have just put another bandage on the woes of mankind. The main driving force, which is detrimental to man's growth is "greed." When we start to put what is best for the masses over what's best for the few, or the one , then there will be no need for nations and / or national alliances; war and starvation will become a thing of the past. Throughout Man's history, man's biggest hurdle, has always been man.
 

Whether some people don't want Muslims immigrating here is one thing, but seriously, that these same people think ALL Muslims are the followers of ISIS is another. People are now scared, maybe more in the US and the media and Trump are capitalizing on it. Although it is not the same kind of fear that led to interment of Japanese in US and Canada during WWII, it is beginning to give off a similar type of odour.

Most average people know jack squat about Muslims other than what they see on the news, or about religions other than their own (if they have one). Some people have studied the sociological impact of religious radicals on a religious group and might be more qualified to understand what is going on, and lots of what they say, Shalimar, might sound horrible to us, but is it completely inaccurate? I'd rather let the scholars decide.
 
Frankly, at this point, I am far more worried about the social impact of extreme Israeli Zionism which is being played out on the Palestinians etc, than the supposed threat from Syrian refugees. Funny, how nothing is done about that. I guess thinly disguised genocide is ok if it is Arabs? Yes, I know what I am talking about, my nephew was there, saw it with his own eyes.....
 

"Extreme Israeli Zionism," eh, Shalimar? As in, when people are simply trying to live their lives in peace in their own homeland, and are surrounded and continually infiltrated by terrorists who want nothing more
than to murder them all and (in their own words) drive them into the sea? So, I guess the Holocaust was not enough; there are still a few peaceful Jews left in the world.
 
Excuse me? I have Jewish relatives with numbers tattooed on their arms. I am all too aware of the Holocaust. One of my great aunts, a concentration camp survivor, and very old, recently spoke at a Jewish rally in New York City, put on by a Not In My

Name contingent of American Jews. Not all Jews embrace Zionism, particularly the extreme form as practiced by the right wing gov't of that bully Netanyahu.
 
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Thank you Cookie. I have seen the documentary, my aunt told me of it. She was very distraught, but believed in it's authenticity. Many of the ever dwindling "club" of holocaust survivors are horrified by the current Zionist vision/policies, and speak out harshly, so far to no avail. As one gentleman put it, "it's as if Goebels were reincarnated as propoganda minister in Israel."
 
Sunny said:
"Extreme Israeli Zionism," eh, Shalimar? As in, when people are simply trying to live their lives in peace in their own homeland, and are surrounded and continually infiltrated by terrorists who want nothing more
than to murder them all and (in their own words) drive them into the sea? So, I guess the Holocaust was not enough; there are still a few peaceful Jews left in the world.
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After doing months of reading about the situation in Israel, I quickly realized that most people have never looked beyond the Western soundbites that are served up to us every night on the evening news. And those soundbites talk about rockets being launched, smuggling tunnels and suicide attacks. What they don't tell you about is the food and water deprivation, the thousands of Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed over the years, or the children that are imprisoned indefinitely in Israeli prisons, or the raids and reprisals that come in the dark of night, or the ex-IDF soldiers who are so ashamed of what they were required to do that they have formed a group called 'Breaking the Silence' in order to expose the continual abuses of the Israeli military against helpless civilians. They also fail to mention that for every one Jewish person who is killed by a frustrated Palestinian, nine Palestinians (of all ages, including children) die. They don't talk about the settler attacks on Palestinian homes, farms, children walking to school or the fact that in any altercation started by a violent settler, the Palestinian invariably gets arrested, held indefinitely while the Jewish settler goes home.

If someone invaded and took over your state of Maryland, what do you think your feelings might be if they deprived you of everything that is dear to you and made your life hell?
 
Debby said:
After doing months of reading about the situation in Israel, I quickly realized that most people have never looked beyond the Western soundbites that are served up to us every night on the evening news. And those soundbites talk about rockets being launched, smuggling tunnels and suicide attacks. What they don't tell you about is the food and water deprivation, the thousands of Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed over the years, or the children that are imprisoned indefinitely in Israeli prisons, or the raids and reprisals that come in the dark of night, or the ex-IDF soldiers who are so ashamed of what they were required to do that they have formed a group called 'Breaking the Silence' in order to expose the continual abuses of the Israeli military against helpless civilians. They also fail to mention that for every one Jewish person who is killed by a frustrated Palestinian, nine Palestinians (of all ages, including children) die. They don't talk about the settler attacks on Palestinian homes, farms, children walking to school or the fact that in any altercation started by a violent settler, the Palestinian invariably gets arrested, held indefinitely while the Jewish settler goes home.
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I agree Debby. Viewer discretion advised for the following video for those interested.

 
Whether some people don't want Muslims immigrating here is one thing, but seriously, that these same people think ALL Muslims are the followers of ISIS is another. People are now scared, maybe more in the US and the media and Trump are capitalizing on it. Although it is not the same kind of fear that led to interment of Japanese in US and Canada during WWII, it is beginning to give off a similar type of odour.
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The thing is, no one can tell whether any given Muslim is potential ISIS material or not.

You can look at a white person and tell he's white. You can look at a woman and tell she's female (unless she's identifying as male that day).

There is no way to look at a Muslim and tell whether he/she is a threat to you or not until he pulls out a hand grenade/gun/bomb ... and then it's too late. Every person has the potential for violence, and if a person's religious leaders tell him to be violent, will he resist?
 
Charleston church massacre. When will whites stand up and do something about rightwing domestic terrorism? This was a terrible crime against black Christians. What is producing such radicalised whites? What are the signs?
 
Guitarist said:
The thing is, no one can tell whether any given Muslim is potential ISIS material or not.

You can look at a white person and tell he's white. You can look at a woman and tell she's female (unless she's identifying as male that day).

There is no way to look at a Muslim and tell whether he/she is a threat to you or not until he pulls out a hand grenade/gun/bomb ... and then it's too late. Every person has the potential for violence, and if a person's religious leaders tell him to be violent, will he resist?
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Gee, I don't know. For a start maybe we should ask some of the white women of Westboro Church, or white women who are members of the KKK or maybe those white women who protest outside Abortion Clinics....you know those places where staff are sometimes killed?
 
Shalimar said:
Charleston church massacre. When will whites stand up and do something about rightwing domestic terrorism? This was a terrible crime against black Christians. What is producing such radicalised whites? What are the signs?
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The first sign is stupidity. Add anger, bitterness, bigotry, paranoia, persecution complex, misplaced superiority......the list is endless.
 
I think what we need to do is identify the moderate Muslims in our communities and give them support as they face the challenges of faith (in a religion that has been hijacked by monsters and the ignorant masses). When we hear of them, we must take note of who they are, who their groups are and use our energy to (cheer) them on as they bravely work to move their faith forward into this century. I also think that our media is doing a terrible job of identifying those people and groups and I suppose it's because 'atrocities sell' as opposed to good news stories. And shame on them and us for that.



Raheel Raza is a Canadian Muslim woman and is the President of The Council For Muslims Facing Tomorrow. She speaks all over the world at conferences designed to hi-lite others who stepped away from ancient attitudes and in some cases paid with their lives, and to hold up a new and better vision for their faith. Her blog is here: https://raheelraza.wordpress.com

The Council For Muslims Facing Tomorrow - The Preamble to their Mission Statement:

We are Muslims who live in the 21st century. We stand for a respectful, merciful and inclusive interpretation of Islam. We are in a battle for the soul of Islam, and an Islamic renewal must defeat the ideology of Islamism, or politicized Islam, which seeks to create Islamic states, as well as an Islamic caliphate.

We seek to reclaim the progressive spirit with which Islam was born in the 7th century to fast forward it into the 21st century. We support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was adopted by United Nations member states in 1948.
We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. We announce the formation of an international initiative: the Muslim Reform Movement.

We have courageous reformers from around the world who have written our Declaration for Muslim Reform, a living document that we will continue to enhance as our journey continues. We invite our fellow Muslims and neighbors to join us. (it goes on to discuss human rights, women's rights, secular governance, freedom of speech and religion, etc.) and can be found here: http://muslimsfacingtomorrow.com/press-releases/
 
Just started viewing your video link SeaBreeze. 7 minutes in and I'm appalled. Even though I've read about lots of dreadful things that go on there, I'm still appalled. The image of the IDF soldier grabbing a rock and using it to beat that Palestinian man who is cowering on the ground in the middle of the group, the woman who is told to 'work so that she can afford to go home', that Amnesty International has documented Palestinian homes being bulldozed while the families are still inside, the talk of women being forced to give birth at checkpoints and their babies dying......shocking.

I think the lack of news coverage is part of our governments efforts to paint all Muslims with the same brush of 'violence' because what does come across on CNN and Fox and CBC, is suicide bombers, Palestinian random attacks, Hamas........and that feeds into the narrative about ISIS and caliphates and dangerous Muslims.

Another reason too might be NATO's ongoing efforts to push Russia into a corner and achieved in part by not discussing the monster in Turkey, President Erdogan. Should we not be hearing about his (rumoured) desire to renew an Islamic caliphate, the Ottoman empire, with Turkey as its head? Shouldn't we hear about the stolen oil coming from ISIS and going through Turkey, the NATO member? Shouldn't we be condemning the murder of a parachuting Russian pilot and the subsequent murder of a Russian rescuer who was coming to the pilots aid? Collusion and conspiracy and agenda's and because of all of this, all Muslims are painted with a broad brush that is steeped in beheadings and violence.
 
Guitarist said:
The thing is, no one can tell whether any given Muslim is potential ISIS material or not.

You can look at a white person and tell he's white. You can look at a woman and tell she's female (unless she's identifying as male that day).

There is no way to look at a Muslim and tell whether he/she is a threat to you or not until he pulls out a hand grenade/gun/bomb ... and then it's too late. Every person has the potential for violence, and if a person's religious leaders tell him to be violent, will he resist?
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And just how do you identify a Muslim? They don't wear signs or labels. Do you think all brown people are Muslim? All Middle Eastern looking people? All Arabs are not Muslim. All Muslim women do not wear scarves or hijabs. Are you simply going to ask them? If they have bad intentions do you think they will say, 'yes I'm Muslim and a terrorist'.
 
I live in a community with a large Muslim.. or rather Middle Eastern population. I shop in their stores.. I eat in their restaurants and Hubby's barber is Middle Eastern. I have no idea about what religion they practice or IF they practice. We have never encountered a problem. They are living their lives and earning a living.. oh.. AND paying taxes.
 
QuickSilver said:
I live in a community with a large Muslim.. or rather Middle Eastern population. I shop in their stores.. I eat in their restaurants and Hubby's barber is Middle Eastern. I have no idea about what religion they practice or IF they practice. We have never encountered a problem. They are living their lives and earning a living.. oh.. AND paying taxes.
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I hate that people make assumptions about someone's religion based on how they look. And I detest when people say The Arabs which they think means all Muslims. Preceding a word like Arab, Muslim, Hispanic, Mexican, Black....etc (like Trump does) shows one has an 'us and them' attitude which actually means bigotry.
 
Shalimar, re your note #80:

While I am largely in agreement with you on this, my objection is to your use of the expression "extreme Israeli Zionism" as an implied parallel with the terrorism of Isis. Zionism simply means the love of Israel. It is
not a terrorist organization or a terrorist mentality, quite the opposite. Equating Zionism with terrorism is akin to equating Canadian or U.S. patriotism with terrorism. Ridiculous, right? But this is a typical example of
extreme Palestinian propaganda against the Israelis.

Having said that, I should add that I am no fan of Netanyahu, the Israeli right wing, or the settlements, which I think should be disbanded. There is undoubtedly a great deal of polarization and prejudice on both sides
in Israel; however, hurting someone's feelings or even violating their civil rights is NOT the same thing as terrorism! I googled this subject and found the following on Wickipedia. While it does describe what it calls
"violence" by the extreme right wing against Palestinians, this violence is mainly against property. The Israelis are not terrorists, out to kill innocent people. There have been a few cases, but very few. And of course,
when it happens it is inexcusable, no matter which side is doing it.

And no, I don't think 99% of the Muslims are terrorists, either. But there clearly is a sickness that has taken over some branches of that religion, resulting in what is obviously most of the terrorism going on in the world
today. We cannot stop people from coming to this country, or from professing their allegiance to Sharia law. But let's not make false analogies either.

Here's the Wickipedia description of Israeli "terrorism:"

Human Rights Watch reports on physical violence against Palestinians by settlers, including, "frequent[ly] stoning and shooting at Palestinian cars. In many cases, settlers abuse Palestinians in front of Israeli soldiers or police with little interference from the authorities."[SUP][22][/SUP]
B'Tselem also says that settler actions include "blocking roadways, so as to impede Palestinian life and commerce. The settlers also shoot solar panels on roofs of buildings, torch automobiles, shatter windowpanes and windshields, destroy crops, uproot trees, abuse merchants and owners of stalls in the market. Some of these actions are intended to force Palestinians to leave their homes and farmland, and thereby enable the settlers to gain control of them."[SUP][23][/SUP]
[h=2][/h]
 
Sunny, if you look up the word terrorism, the following is the definition you will find:


  • 'the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims'.

  • Given that definition and the actions for fifty years+, Israel is a terrorist government. Their violence against the helpless Palestinian population is not occasional nor accidental. It is deliberate and it is continual and it escalates. And while they don’t behead people or burn them alive, they do rob them of life and liberty by every means possible.

    Their intention of course is to make life so miserable and difficult that they force anyone who is not an ‘acceptable’ citizen, to leave and has been referred to as a ‘soft genocide’ by some who are there and seeing their activities first hand.

    When I looked up ‘genocide’ I discovered the following statement by Yehuda Bauer in 1984, who happens to be an Israeli historian and Holocaust survivor ironically.


    '[Genocide is] the planned destruction, since the mid-nineteenth century, of a racial, national, or ethnic group as such, by the following means: (a) selective mass murder of elites or parts of the population; (b) elimination of national (racial, ethnic) culture and religious life with the intent of "denationalization"; (c) enslavement, with the same intent; (d) destruction of national (racial, ethnic) economic life, with the same intent; (e) biological decimation through the kidnapping of children, or the prevention of normal family life, with the same intent….



    It is obvious from a real study of the treatment that Israel metes out to the entire Palestinian population, that items b, c, d and e are exactly the methods that are being employed. And if you include the actual conflicts such as the world witnessed in 2014 plus many other instances, even item 'a' is an action that is taken periodically. Yehuda Bauer is speaking from a place of experience during the Holocaust, and Ze'ev Jabotinsky, thought by many to be the founder of the Likud party, actually 'gave thanks to Hitler' when he said,

    "Hitler—as odious as he is to us—has given this idea [ethnic cleansing] a good name in the world."—Jabotinsky' That is the political spirit that motivates the Israeli government today.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions
    http://www.thehypertexts.com/Zionist%20Quotes.htm

 

I came across an article, written by Jewish-American Stephen Lendman, a Research Associate for the Centre for Research on Globalization, who in commenting on Israel's 2015 appointment of Danny Danon as their UN Envoy, says the following:

Israel is run by a fanatical criminal gang of lunatics - genocidists wanting greater Israel for Jews alone, Arabs entirely eliminated from areas they want ethnically pure.

It’s permanently at war with Palestine, terrorizing defenseless civilians, mass slaughtering them at its discretion, brutalizing children like adults, attacking Palestinian fishermen a reported 1312 times since Operation Protective Edge ended last August.

Likudnik Danny Danon is a notorious racist - an outspoken opponent of Palestinian self-determination. Netanyahu sacked him last summer as deputy defense minister for calling Operation Protective Edge too soft on Gaza.

He urged greater genocide than than already inflicted. “We should have given the order to the army to clean up Gaza,” he said. Form your own judgment on what he meant.

He issued a statement rejecting ceasefire, claiming “Hamas is once again setting conditions for us. We must not be humiliated.”
“We must correct the mistake of the cabinet decision (for ceasefire) and allow the army to do what it must” - urging full-scale ground invasion, increased terror bombing, inflicting far greater mass casualties, mainly affecting noncombatant men, women and children.
I think Mr. Danon's words are pretty clear and don't need further explanation as to Israel's philosophy and intentions.

You mentioned a few 'issues' and in a sense I think minimized them, but to be honest Sunny, I think that you are hearing only what AIPAC wants you to hear instead of what actually happens to anyone who is not a Jew in Israel.

When I began researching the Israel/Palestinian situation a few years ago, I knew about as much as you. I'd heard about the rockets, suicide bombers, etc., and my sympathies were more aligned with the Jewish Israeli's. However, after spending the time looking at what human rights groups (there) had to say, as well as reading several UN reports and the writings of academics (who were both Jew and non-Jews) and regional newspapers plus a history book about the region and President Carter's book, I began to realize the horror that Israel inflicts on that Arab population continuously. Israel's intentions are very clear and it does not include a two state solution or even the inclusion of Arabs citizens in Israel's desired 'one state'.

I want to also make the point that when I was doing the research, I made a point of NOT reading anything coming out of Arab or Palestinian websites. I felt that their bias was too strong for obvious reasons, and that I was more likely to get a balanced assessment from the sources mentioned above.

http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/53558-israel-un-envoy.html
 
Debby, this stuff has been spewed by the Palestinian extremists since day one of the state of Israel, back in 1948. Read the history of the country, see who is committing an endless pattern of murder against whom, and
then decide who the terrorists are. (By "read," I mean an objective description of the country, not Palestinian propaganda.)

, terrorizing defenseless civilians, mass slaughtering them at its discretion, brutalizing children like adults
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So, the Israelis are doing that to the Palestinians? How would you describe the many bombings and shootings at bus stops, pizza shops, shops, etc., in which defenseless civilians, both Israeli and Palestinian, have been killed?
 
Debby said:
After doing months of reading about the situation in Israel, I quickly realized that most people have never looked beyond the Western soundbites that are served up to us every night on the evening news. And those soundbites talk about rockets being launched, smuggling tunnels and suicide attacks. What they don't tell you about is the food and water deprivation, the thousands of Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed over the years, or the children that are imprisoned indefinitely in Israeli prisons, or the raids and reprisals that come in the dark of night, or the ex-IDF soldiers who are so ashamed of what they were required to do that they have formed a group called 'Breaking the Silence' in order to expose the continual abuses of the Israeli military against helpless civilians. They also fail to mention that for every one Jewish person who is killed by a frustrated Palestinian, nine Palestinians (of all ages, including children) die. They don't talk about the settler attacks on Palestinian homes, farms, children walking to school or the fact that in any altercation started by a violent settler, the Palestinian invariably gets arrested, held indefinitely while the Jewish settler goes home.

If someone invaded and took over your state of Maryland, what do you think your feelings might be if they deprived you of everything that is dear to you and made your life hell?
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There is much censorship in the main stream media about the Israeli occupation of this land which is the cause of so much bloodshed. I am still learning about it, as years ago I didn't pay much attention. I remember a good radio show host, Reggie Rivers who was also a sports celebrity was fired from his job just for discussing the Palestinian/Israeli situation, too many political money influences behind the scenes of that radio station objected to any discussion which may uncover what was really going on there.

People seem to deny anything that tells the Palestinian side of the story, dismissing it as propaganda. The only reason I'm interested now, is because I see the powerful Israeli influence on our politics in America and don't like everything I see. Bibi Netanyahu's antics is a prime example. Some basic information here about GAZA.
 

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